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Should Zyra be balanced around support? (Poll and my opinion)

L0ve Is Blue··16 votes·3,140 views

If you don't already know: It has been announced that Zyra is going to be reworked for the mage update with the optic of support being her primary role, with some consideration for mid lane.

From what I have read on the thread talking about Zyra's rework, Most (maybe around 90% of the players) think that she should be reworked with mid as her primary role, and that is what I also think. I started playing in S5 and loved playing Zyra since I bought her, but the only reason I play her bot lane is because she is not very good midlane (too squishy, get out-traded)

In my opinion, Zyra should be reworked to be a mid lane AP carry with good CC/utility, and Zyra's secondary role should be replaced by Zyra jungle. A plant mage in the jungle would make way more sense than support, and it would be amazing to have another mage being viable in the jungle other than Fiddlestick (mid should be her main focus thought). She could still be a viable support, being focused on 2 roles doesn't mean making every other not viable.

So I would like to know what people actualy think with a poll, Seen some on straw poll and reddit that said players would prefer her mid, but I'd like the boards opinion.

EDIT: tought this might be interesting http://strawpoll.me/7114736/

EDIT 2: While reading some comments and re-reading my post, I tought that saying Zyra support dissapear would be a little too much to ask, I expressed myself badly and replaced what I would like to happen for her. I meant it in a way that Zyra mid/jungle would be more intersting than mid/support and so there would'nt be much need to focus her support identity if she is taking that direction.

91 Comments

Aeolian Melodies8 votes

As a support main I'm tempted to say no because I am so incredibly tired with dealing with mages' bullshit bot lane.

L0ve Is Blue2 votes

That also is a problem, since she has so build full AP to be relevant in any way even if she is "support", and people play her that way because they like the aggressive mage side of her, not her support side, and the aggressive mage is way better in mid or jungle than support role.

The Bearded Bard2 votes

Not really. She needs two AP items, Liandries and Rylais, to be relevant for the rest of the game. Zhonyas is also pretty much needed, but after those three items she can build whatever she wants. That's why she's played as a support.

L0ve Is Blue1 votes

oh dear have you ever played her XD

The Bearded Bard2 votes

Yeah, she's one of my most played champions. If you want to blow someone up with just your QER, then yeah, you're gonna need quite a bit of AP, but that's not what she's about. The burst helps, but your main damage is from plants, and all they need is Rylais and Liandries. Zhonyas is just for defense.

thumbnail98 votes

Needs to be a mid, and they're updating her as part of the immobile mage update.

There is absolutely no place for her bot lane.

L0ve Is Blue2 votes

I was too surprised that they reworked her while considering her as a support when you look at the other mages getting a rework like Cass Vlad or Brand who are all strong solo laner with some flaws and I was expecting her to get the same treatment to make her a better solo laner mage in general... I really hope they change that!

thumbnail91 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lemon Graber,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qzrLWibR,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-03-19T14:48:40.434+0000)

I was too surprised that they reworked her while considering her as a support when you look at the other mages getting a rework like Cass Vlad or Brand who are all strong solo laner with some flaws and I was expecting her to get the same treatment to make her a better solo laner mage in general... I really hope they change that!

Its because when she was released she was a super strong mid laner. She only lost her ability to mid lane because the meta shifted and it is still not suiting to her.

Zyra is a mid mage that has the tankiness of Sona (prolly even less). What was she ever going to do vs any assassin? She's supposed to be a counter "engage" mage as touted by Riot but she was better at catch engaging with her kit as seen by her broken ass support play till they used Annie to delete her out of the support meta.

Her entire play pattern was:

Poke, Poke, Poke Snare Hard engage with Ulti

You are sure as hell not going to peel leblanc, or Zed when your knock up comes 1.2 seconds after you use it. Which is why when she was played support you always seen the Zhonya's rush due to the fact she could flash+snare+ulti for a hard engage on a team comp. Also because she is made of glass dicks.

L0ve Is Blue5 votes

Wich is why

She is

Getting

A

Rework

So I am asking Zyra players if theyd prefer her mid or support, and the poll is speaking by itself

Zeurth2 votes

That comment alone speaks to your bias.

LankPants2 votes

Yes, it does speak to his bias, that's actually what's important here.

Of course most Zyra players are biased towards either mid or support. That's what should be the main defining factor in her rework, which way more players are biased. That poll is showing that more players prefer Zyra mid.

Zeurth1 votes

I meant thread starter, not the guy who wants zyra mid.

L0ve Is Blue1 votes

Well yeah I am biased (hardcore very a lot biased) towards Zyra mid. So? I can't ask peoples opinion and debate my point if I started the thread?

ChaoticPinecone4 votes

Actually, she lost her ability to mid when they gutted her during the hotfix. Then she fell out of the support meta when they nerfed her base damages, range, CC, and her W CDR.

The meta never pushed her out of favor. It was all the nerfs.

Stellafreyja6 votes

I still can't get over how in the thread, they're like "Zyra is played more as Support than Mid" to justify to actions. Like, did you miss all the posts (including mine) about how she was nerfed out of Mid-lane into Support?

It's like, if they nerfed Syndra or Orianna (who are both Mage/Support) out of Mid-lane, forced them to be Supports, and then balance them around bot-lane rather than trying to get them back into Mid-lane.

L0ve Is Blue2 votes

This is exaclty my point :') some people just don't read before they post but at least the poll shows that 45 players out of 55 would prefer Zyra to be mainly mid (for now) and 82% is a big part of the voters so I am glad to see we are not alone XD

Amelie4 votes

They should be focusing on her as a mid laner. I played Zyra since day 1, and played her mid until she got nerfed hard. This made me move down to support. I think people are just playing her as support because that's where she can be successful. Bring her back to mid, and support Zyra becomes secondary again.

"Support" Zyra builds as a mage anyway... I don't understand what they are thinking.

(Also I think Zyra jungle will be do-able as long as mid lane is strong too)

ModWulf Helhammer3 votes

Her roles go support, mid, and the few really off meta people that play her in the jungle.

It stands then to reason that they should balance her least for jungle, second for mid, and mainly for the role most people play her in, support. If another role picks up as the main one, then they balance for that

L0ve Is Blue7 votes

That is how she is played NOW, but really few players actualy want to play her support, they do so because it's just better than going mid and she is not currently balanced around jungle, so of course she won't go there a lot. The question is about where should she go not where she is now. She was intended to go mid and was then forced bot lane after some nerfs because mid is kind of rough for her atm. If she could still do good there im pretty sure we would see a lot less of Zyra bot, but for now she is there more as an AP carry than a support since she builds full AP even when going support.

ModWulf Helhammer4 votes

Maybe that's what happens when it started, but now a majority of people play her support, past play methods or not. They can't alienate the majority by balancing for a role far less people play her in. While it may be nice for the long time Zyra mains, the greater number of ones that play her bot lane won't like it as much.

All things considered though, you are right in the fact that most Zyra's still build mostly AP, so mid lane will likely still work even when balanced mostly for support. Zyra was never about incredible burst, instead control and lockdown, things that made her good for a support role in the first place

L0ve Is Blue5 votes

Yes, she is mostly played support because that is what is considered meta and what she is better at. That is not the question. It's about if Zyra players want her to be played mid or support.

Moonshade3 votes

When she was initially released she functioned as an immobile, high damage, high CC mid lane mage, I know because I used to main her in the mid lane. However due to some range nerfs, a damage nerf on her main poke (Q) and other changes to her plant functionality and ability speed she was forced to go Support around the time of the Mages as Support craze (Brand and Annie both still see occasional play as support BUT they retain their mid lane functionality & damage), and was seen to be more effective there due to her harass, CC and inability to play safe mid lane in a meta of hyper mobility that allows people to dodge most of her damage.

What people want to see from her is a mage that still retains that high damage, high CC, zone control effect BUT they don't want her being balanced around support. Being balanced as a support means having her function like Bard, Nami, Sona or Karma. High utility and CC with good base damages but terrible ratios on her spells making her good for early game harass but weaker mid-late forcing them to buy things like Banner of Command, ZZ'Rot, Mikael's or Locket and focus on controlling the vision game to stay relevant.

What people want is something like Annie, LeBlanc or Brand support, good CC and harass options with scary damage allowing their main threat in lane to be them using their burst rotation to chunk you for 3/4 or more of the enemy's HP allowing your ADC to farm up while you zone off the enemy lane by the threat of you chunking them or bursting them to death. While also having the ability for the character to become a damage threat mid-late game through building full damage after their sightstone/Eye item.

TL:DR we want Zyra to function primarily as a mid lane mage with high damage, good CC and strong zoning potential through her plants and long range spells in a manner similar to Lux and Xerath versus what Riot is proposing which is turning her into a low damage utility pick that can go to other lanes like Karma and Lulu (although Lulu maybe a bad example since she functions better as a laner than as a support right now due to the meta :p )

MisterHealYoGirl2 votes

Zyra has about an 80% support playrate (only 20% of her games are in mid), but her winrate is the same in both positions (marginally higher in mid, actually); this seems to imply that support Zyra is in fact the preferred position.

Aeolian Melodies5 votes

{quoted}

Zyra has about an 80% support playrate (only 20% of her games are in mid), but her winrate is the same in both positions (marginally higher in mid, actually); this seems to imply that support Zyra is in fact the preferred position.

Because it's the most commonly seen position. No one ever played Zyra mid competitively, and people are sheep.

L0ve Is Blue4 votes

Yes, she is mostly played support because that is what is considered meta and what she is better at. That is not the question. It's about if Zyra players want her to be played mid or support.

MisterHealYoGirl2 votes

If you have a lot of experience on Zyra, you've almost certainly played her both mid and support; since she's equally viable in both right now, wouldn't her higher support playrate indicate a preference to play her there?

L0ve Is Blue5 votes

I do play a lot of Zyra and don't really play her mid because there is just better options. If I want to be a mid lanner with good CC and do damage i'm going to play Lux Orianna Anivia because they are simply better than Zyra who struggle to trade mid lane because of how squishy she is. Bot lane, you draw less attention than your adc and you can cast your spells from a bush to be safer, wich is the only reason to go there because Zyra support most of the time don'T "support" their ADC, they do damage and build damage and lock down target so their plants can do damage because Zyra is damage oriented and all of her kit is oriented towards offense but she isn't strong enough to be as strong as the other AP mid laners, so she was turned into an "offensive support" AKA second AP carry that can't be the main AP carry.

If she was balanced around mid I would probably never play her support again and play Sona Morgana Lulu If I want to play a more poky/offensive support.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

I'd rather keep her out of mid. Considering I got 100-0'd by a 4/9/5 support Zyra with only ~160-180 AP and Sorc Shoes last night when I was about 10/3/4, I'd rather not see what she can do with actual income

L0ve Is Blue4 votes

The point of a rework being to balance and change things that are odd in a champion kit, and making them more fitting to the actual meta.

Since her release, all Zyra got are bugfixes for her plants and nerfs, so of course she is kind of strange at the moment. We aren't looking at current Zyra, but to what we want her to become.

resumed2 votes

balance her for support because people play her as a support

why fix what isnt broken

L0ve Is Blue5 votes

Dude

The fact she was forced to play support for so long IS what is broken. She is played support because she just can't fit mid anymore and other options over shine her, so she goes bot lane where she can cast her spells and have someone do the attention whore for her because ADC's tend to be more focused than supports so she can do her job without dying in 2 seconds.

resumed2 votes

leona was designed for a solo lane too but here she is forced to play support

better rework her into a juggernaut

L0ve Is Blue3 votes

Leona, The Radiant Dawn is a tanky initiator mostly played as a support in the bot lane. She has a strong ability to set up kills with her wealth of crowd control effects and her passive, which creates a seal capable of being activated for extra on-hit damage. Leona is excellent at starting fights with both her Zenith Blade and Solar Flare. She also becomes relatively tanky without many items due to Eclipse, which grants a massive armor and magic resistance buff.

http://lol.gamepedia.com/Leona_-_The_Radiant_Dawn

Champion spotlight say she is a pure tank that lock down targets for her allys and soak up damage

Where is solo lane

resumed1 votes

where does it talk about her intended design

L0ve Is Blue2 votes

wait let me take the sentence out for you since you can't read

** a tanky initiator mostly played as a support in the bot lane.**

resumed1 votes

zyra is a squishy counter initiator mostly played as a support in the bot lane

what was your point again?

L0ve Is Blue4 votes

Did you even click the link? That was her description when she was released.THIS is what Zyra was intended to be

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2347895&page=1#post26843621

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9DLY0Qrcm4

Zyra is a ranged MAGE who disperses seeds and grows them into DEADLY plants that attack her foes. She is adapted at pummeling individual enemies and controling movements accross the battelfield.

There is even a little tutorial on how to clear jungle camps while being MID lane and all of the gameplay we see in her champion spotlight is mid.

resumed2 votes

yeah and?

mordekaiser was intended to be a duo lane melee marskmen

look at how well that turned out

also you're ignoring that release zyra was just as bad as xin zhao

L0ve Is Blue3 votes

It's not about broken on release or not, it's about where do ZYRA PLAYERS want her to go.

Mordekaiser was REWORKED into a duo laner and was never meant to be one before, and they did so without asking morde player what they wanted and total cancer was born on that patch because Riot killed the champion, and that is exactly why they are telling us in advance what they are going to do so we can give our opinion and avoid situations like this.

resumed2 votes

im a zyra player

i want her support ^-^

just like, you know, the majority of zyra players

L0ve Is Blue4 votes

You reaaally have a reading problem don't you???

http://strawpoll.me/7114736/

and the poll on this thread both say that players want her MID way more than support. Please stop stating informations that you made up.

resumed1 votes

the players here hate support

people complained when sona got an ultimate skin

theyre gonna complain when a champion they dont play is becoming support oriented (even tho thats where they were played before it was announced LOL)

and honestly yeah ive only been reading one line of what your posts say

L0ve Is Blue2 votes

Well I won't mind replying anymore if you admit yourself you don't read XD

Btw I love playing support, but I feel like Zyra's place is mid lane and so do most of the players.

Loboros5 votes

Zyra mid was way more fun than zyra support for me, she just was nerfed way too hard out of mid.

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

I personally love playing her support, and don't particularly care for her mid or jg.

Saying Zyra support should just "disappear" seems rather illogical because Zyra is played as a support more than 80% of the time (look at champion.gg).

Don't get me wrong, I understand that Zyra was orginally intended as a mid, but there are already so many mids and so few supports, why not let the champion most people play as a support actually be balanced around that?

L0ve Is Blue1 votes

few supports Bard Blitzcrank Braum Janna Karma Leona Lulu Morgana Nami Sona Soraka Thresh Zilean Taric

  • all the champions that can be played support without being primarly played bot lane Annie Brand Kayle Kennen Lux Malphite Maokai Nautilus Poppy TahmKench Veigar Velkoz Volibear

Anyway why should we rework a champion based on what is needed in the game and not on what the playerbase want from that champion?

IxtaliKing2 votes

Karma and Morgana aren't support primaries though. Also to your second list you could add Galio Orianna Trundle Xerath Shen Nidalee etc...

L0ve Is Blue1 votes

hahaha I knew someone was going to do this XD

IxtaliKing1 votes

Lol whenever someone calls Karma a support primary it disturbs my spirit xD

Katai Jyji3 votes

The thing is that showing this statistic without giving any context is pretty much useless and irrelevant.

  • Most Zyra mains play her mid/supp. MID/Supp queues heavily favor supp 80% of the time
  • Players didn't choose to player her supp, at the beginning Zyra was played at 98% in the midlane. Then came the first wave of nerfs, that ended up making her way more risky to pick in the midlane, then support Zyra gained a huge popularity due to the active picks back then that were pretty much squishies ( Sona, Soraka .. ). At this time the popularity was still heavily in favor of Zyra mid. But here they started the trend of balancing Zyra for the bot lane, where they didn't pay attention at all at her mid potential, with their second waves of nerfs. That's where the popularity of Zyra mid took a huge hit, and decreased with every season, coincidence ? Doubt it.
  • Zyra has never known mid competitive success, but it had in the botlane.
  • Then RITO decided to "adopt her" as a support in the client, recommended items : FQC instead of doran ring, changing her mana stats to fit a support one etc...

That's why just deciding based upon the stat is meaningless, this stat is a result of several decisions that greatly made the support Zyra shine more than the midlane one. When they announced Zyra would be balanced around a primary role ( implying midlane ) in another thread, nobody said a thing, here they announced Zyra would be balanced around support and it literally became a huge controversial topic on several platforms ( boards, reddit) , why do you think ?

Furthermore, 80% isn't that high, that's the opposite, having only 80% of popularity for support, 3 years after all these nerfs regarding the Zyra mid, and all these changes that made Zyra support better is in this sense pretty amazing, look at what happened to Sona mid, Sion Mid, Nidalee Mid, Quinn ADC, Mordekaiser ADC after much less time.

Zyra is THE example where context matters the most, players and the fanbase should be able to decide fairly of her directions rather than being forced to follow it due to the decisions RIOT made over the years.

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