Boards›Gameplay

Am I the only one who feel like "safe assassination" shouldn't be a thing?

L0ve Is Blue··349 votes·12,362 views

I mean, the assassin playstyle is supposed to be high risk=high reward. They are supposed to jump in and assassinate their target but by doing so they also expose themselves to danger.

Examples of high risk/reward assassin would be Katarina Khazix Talon Let me explain why:

Katarina Has to use her Shunpo (E) to get into the fight and burst someone down. If she succeed, she will be rewarded with refreshed cooldowns, and by the same occasion an opportunity to assassinate another target or shunpo out to safety. Because she took risks and succeeded, she is rewarded

Khazix Just like Katarina, Kha'zix has to use his mobility spell to get close to his target and he will get a reset if he succeeds.

Talon Talon's blink is purely offensive and he has now way out if he uses it to go on an enemy. The only way for him to succeed is to out trade or kill his opponent, or else he puts himself in danger.

Those are some example of assassins I love playing against because they need to take some sort of risk/decision making to be victorious.

And then there is Zed Leblanc Those two can just burst you down and blink back to safety without you having time to react.

Zed Already has a great mobility skill, his W wich is a long range blink. And it's ok for an assassin to be mobile, it's something that defines them. But I don't understand why Zed should be able to blink to you, use his ult and then just blink back again because his ults has a recast?? This ability has:

-A strong delayed burst damage -Immunity for 1 second -Empowers his abilities with shadows -Make him teleport to his target -Make him able to blink back at no cost.

Isn't this a little too much? Why is Zed allowed to take no risk when he assassinate someone but for the 1 second it takes for him to use his Q+E+AA before he blinks back? What is the counterplay other than using Zhonya or being Lissandra Fizz ? And even if he fails, he doesn't have any punishment! Yesterday I was playing Ahri and was laning against a Zed. He ults me, and being the Faker I am, I charm him as soon as he appears behind me, but right after the charm ends he E+Q and blinks back to safety. He died because of the 2 turret shots he took and my ignite, but so did I. While I was almost full health under my turret. And this scenario is what happens to almost everyone laning against Zed since the most, if not all champions have only one hard CC ability (not counting ults) to try to stop him before he burst you down, and most of the time the CC isn't long enough for him to die since he can blink back right after it.

Leblanc has the same concept, where she can burst/poke you and blink back in a second at no cost. Leblanc W is a dash, a blink and a high damage spell. And she can use it twice with her ult and blink back twice. What risk is she tanking when she W on you expect that you may hit her with one spell if you are lucky?

I feel like those 2 propositions could help balance those champions:

Zed: Can't blink back with his ult. Make him chose if he wants to go in with his W or keep it to go out. His ult already brings him mobility in the form of a blink to his target over the huge burst damage it can bring. It shouldn't allow him to go back to safety considering he already has a blink in his kit.

Leblanc: Give her a delay before she can W back, so that she has to be sure the wants to go on her enemy instead of just using her W without having to fear any retaliation.

378 Comments

Mr Fuzzy Nugget94 votes

I dislike Assassins in general, but I agree with OP.

L0ve Is Blue83 votes

I'm ok with playing against assassins that require decision making, skills and dangerous gameplay like Ahri Katarina Talon Khazix Nidalee

But getting attacked by a Zed or a Leblanc and seeing them blink back to safety even if they failed makes me feel like whatever I do it will always be unfair.

IAMS4T4N106 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lemon Graber,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P6NE2hZQ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-01-30T16:08:39.902+0000)

I'm ok with playing against assassins that require decision making, skills and dangerous gameplay like Ahri

hold it right there

SociopathFriend47 votes

People really need to stop comparing Ahri to Leblanc and Zed- Ahri is a mage first and an assassin second- she's not meant to be the same as the other assassins.

And when did Ahri become such a bad thing? I have not seen any complaints about her and suddenly today they're everywhere in threads. I'm sorry the champion with 2 skillshots that she has to land to 100-0 kill you is so hard to play against. I'm sorry the squishy that by her nature has to dash into AA range to use her burst is so hard to kill. And I'm sorry her reliability to destroy a target is curbstomped with one item. item 3140

HighH18 votes

Well she actually only has to hit 1,Charm because then the opponent is taunted,slowed,and takes additional damage from every spell. She can also poke easily with her fast Q which does true damage and hits twice

SociopathFriend47 votes

Ahri's Charm hasn't given you bonus damage since Patch 5.2. But that's true- if she lands the CC skillshot she deserves to hit you with the follow up- justLux likeMorgana otherVelkoz magesXerath .

Riot altered her to make her a kiting Mage, not an Assassin. She takes substantially longer to kill you than most Assassins and is extremely reliant on landing the Charm to even go in and fight you reliably anyways. She's a mobile Mage- not an Assassin. Of course she's going to be safer- but she's also far easier to punish for mistakes than say- Zed.

Champion Skin6 votes

Well it is often easier for Ahri to hit her skillshot CC compared to those other mages... why? Well because she has more options to hit it by having mobility to move in to positions which makes it easier to land

YCitizenSnipsY17 votes

And the trade of is that the rest of her damage has to come rather close to the person, while 3/4 people in that comment get to stay half the rift away to follow up.

Stephenizgod12 votes

WHO IS COMPLAINING ABOUT AHRI!??! Wow these boards... She is entirely reliant on hitting a skillshot for poke, dont get hit and she can't 100- 0 you. Her skillshot charm is the same as any projectile skillhot, stand behind minions. She is extremely weak to CC, once you hit lock her down there isnt much she can do. Plus her ult moves her in a straight line, if you can't predict where she will end up... thats your fault...

Pro tip from a Silver: If you are seriously having issues play Malzahar. As long as you don't ult right when she throws her charm, there is nothing she can do to you.

Unstoppable Monk4 votes

{quoted}

Pro tip from a Silver

Waht.

Sona Ping9 votes

∗∗whoosh∗∗

stealthfox9415 votes

I don't know why people keep acting like Ahri's an assassin she's like 65% mage 35% assassin at this point.

DrNova3 votes

{quoted}

hold it right there

Most of her damage requires her to be very close. The range on foxfire and her ult is short, and puts her in range to get screwed possibly.

In 1v1 you can hit her when she tries to in on you, just dodge or blo k her charm and he gets zero free damage.

In team fights she has to get by the fro tli e and all that cc, as she is very squishy and one cc on her will likely cause her death if the enemy focuses properly

Penguin Eclipse4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lemon Graber,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P6NE2hZQ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-01-30T16:08:39.902+0000)

I'm ok with playing against assassins that require decision making, skills and dangerous gameplay like Ahri Katarina Talon Khazix Nidalee

But getting attacked by a Zed or a Leblanc and seeing them blink back to safety even if they failed makes me feel like whatever I do it will always be unfair.

So your solution is to gut LeBlanc? A champion, who's only defense is not getting hit because her opponent makes a misstep? Adding a W delay would make her completely and utterly trash tier. Hence is why it has not been done despite Riot openly admitting they were looking into some time ago.

Khâmul3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Penguin Eclipse,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P6NE2hZQ,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2016-01-30T17:48:01.835+0000)

So your solution is to gut LeBlanc? A champion, who's only defense is not getting hit because her opponent makes a misstep? Adding a W delay would make her completely and utterly trash tier. Hence is why it has not been done despite Riot openly admitting they were looking into some time ago.

kassadin doesn't have a blink for safety (you usually use your ultimate for engage,so you get a delay to get back to safety (a low delay in level 16,but still exists) so why would LB get a special treatment an?d why it would gut her?

Livin like Riven7 votes

Kassadin also builds tankier, gets naturally reduced magic damage, and then gets a magic damage shield on top of that to make up for it.

Bedl44m1 votes

I think putting a W delay on her would completely take away her uniqueness as well. Half her image as "the deceiver" is due to her tricking you to thinking she will be in one place and then appear in another. If they want to "fix" her (assuming she needs fixing) they will have to rework her completely. I like where she is now though.

Khâmul2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nice Guy Talon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P6NE2hZQ,comment-id=00000000000100000002,timestamp=2016-01-31T23:12:56.284+0000)

I think putting a W delay on her would completely take away her uniqueness as well. Half her image as "the deceiver" is due to her tricking you to thinking she will be in one place and then appear in another. If they want to "fix" her (assuming she needs fixing) they will have to rework her completely. I like where she is now though.

got nothing against her since i know how to counter her, but it's hard if you have a lot of skillshot (so i play safe). the think is not giving her a kill so she can't roam efficiently in botlane

Only Play Darius3 votes

Nidalee Talon Ahri Katarina "Skill" lol

Zed Leblanc Actually take skill

Stephenizgod24 votes

Zed: Press R, spams buttons and maybe an AA, shadow out. 99% of the time the opponent dies. No skill required.

Zed takes about as much skill as Talon except he is easier to survive with. Now if you want to play them with a higher kill rate and better survival rate, they all take skill. Looking at a low elo Talon and a high elo Talon, it is obvious that he does require skill to play well. The same with Zed and LB and Nid and Ahri. Katarina is different... All you really need to do is understand her resets and where you can Shunpo.

Edit: Never mind on the Kat part, several people pointed out that at higher elos she is probably the hardest to pull off and i agree with that.

Aezanthya36 votes

Zed is retarded. Lb can zone you as soon as she hits level 2 with ease. Also she has her dumb passive.

Another retarded case is lee sin.

DrCyanide25 votes

I'll make another nomination for high risk- high reward assassin list: Shaco

You can argue he has safety getting in, thanks to his Q, but that's it. From that moment on Shaco has to out play you and your teammates. No resets, not even absurd amounts of burst to rely on. He gets one crit, one slow, and if you stick around long enough one fear. His clone will do more damage too, but clever use of it is the only way he's getting out.

For Shaco, the reward is the kill and the mind games.

MunchCrunchLunch4 votes

{quoted}

I'll make another nomination for high risk- high reward assassin list: Shaco

You can argue he has safety getting in, thanks to his Q, but that's it. From that moment on Shaco has to out play you and your teammates. No resets, not even absurd amounts of burst to rely on. He gets one crit, one slow, and if you stick around long enough one fear. His clone will do more damage too, but clever use of it is the only way he's getting out.

For Shaco, the reward is the kill and the mind games.

how is shaco high risk when you can simply Q out when things go wrong.

Alphadef24 votes

Because it has a cool down and no resets?

DrCyanide13 votes

Exactly, you either get in safely or out safely. 11 second cooldown means you've got to pick, one or the other.

SleepyLionCub25 votes

"safe assassins should be a thing" "btw I play Ahri "

Serika Zero32 votes

to be fair, she is more like a mage now

Stephenizgod11 votes

I have an easier time against Ahri than against Leblanc and sometimes Zed. Ahri can't blink which is nice and she is reliant on skillshots for her poke and burst.

Keevalroy20 votes

"Well, we consider Zed the healthy assassin" - Rito

Yeah...yeah you say a lot of things that are completely asinine Riot - this being one of them.

Also, just to echo the people who understand her kit; Ahri hasn't been an assassin for just over a year, though she should be.

Poptart Evelynn15 votes

I'm an Assassin main in every game I play.

I don't play/enjoy Zed. He doesn't fit the Assassin feel most games place them as and there is no risk for anything he does.

Zed to me is a mobile fighter. Not an Assassin.

(I main Kat/Kha btw)

Erockandroll14 votes

I feel like a broken record for saying this. The best assassins are good for their non assassin qualities, and the high risk, high reward model is counter intuitive for game health.

Take Akali for example. She has almost no wave clear, and her dash was only good for engages and not disengages. Right now, she's considered complete trash. But I remember that she was considered broken or an auto win the very minute she reached level 6.

The reason I pick on Akali is partially due to the lack of wave clear. She's unable to catch up if behind because she can't farm fast enough. She's only good if she's able to farm champion kills. And that's inherantly a problem to game health, regardless of actual balance. But also the high risk, high reward model is extremely hard to balance across multiple levels of play. Akali was never widely picked in the LCS, (at least when I was watching) and yet, she was considered a complete pub stomper in YoloQ. As pro players understand how to make opportunities for such assassins extraordinarily risky, or completely non existent.

Now when it comes to the likes of Zed and Leblanc. Give them a slight delay before you can return to your original position. (I think Zed already has this.) And shorten the window at which they can return to their position. Making them more vulnerable to CC.

Though over all, I feel like Zed's ability to return to his shadows, is counterbalanced by the fact that he has to give up damaging you, and wasting his ult. And if he's doing that too often, all you would need to do in increase his Ult CD.

Leblanc I think is the bigger problem. You don't really want to nerf her movement ability too much as it's also her primary wave clear ability. Though for her, I would decrease the speed of the dash. as that would also open more opportunities to CC her. I'm not sure, but for some reason, she feels binary in her tactics, despite the number of combos she can actually use. Her best combo is basically Distort into range, Q R, your opponent, and then throw you chain while you distort back. Her chain is 9 times out of 10, used to proc her sidgle of Malice, and almost never for the tether, or the root that follows.

10Tickler13 votes

Assassins should be High Risk, High Reward.

Meaning, if they engage improperly, it should be EASY to take advantage of their mistakes.

The problem with Riot's assassin Cadre comes into play when Damaging/Mobility moves have a Low Cooldown or Resets (Kata, Kha)

If an Assassin jumps into the middle of Three people, they should.be.punished for it, as an Assassin should be the core of a very Pick based teamcomp. Find Stragglers, Roamers, etc, and pick them off. Lay Traps, ambush small groups as a team, and burst, then push while their Team is down 1-2 members and they can't actually stop the push properly.

Instead, with Fizz, Katarina, Kha'zix, LeBlanc, etc, we see champions who, so long as they don't die instantly, and can maybe get a kill, are good to go. Trollpole and Vlad pool should be removed, and with how much power Katarina's ult (Mixed Damage and insane scaling) has, she doesn't need the Reset Mechanic as well, that feels like poor power balancing to me. LeBlanc, at least, is fairly easy to burst, being built with such low health usually, and is rewarding to play, as her W's cooldown is moderately long, even with 40% and level 18.

ZT Xperimentor10 votes

I concur entirely; it's a double standard that needs to be resolved. They nerf tanks for having damage, assassins should be nerfed for having defense. Though I'd add ekko & yasou to the later category, they have several safety functions that belong on supports, they have too much free utility.

SpongebobIsLife10 votes

Here's the biggest thing about Zed. When you compare him to every other assassin except Kha Zix, he is lacking in one big thing. That big thing is reliability. Majority of zeds damage can be dodged, or sashed, and his assassination takes the longest to complete as unless he is really fed, it is not a one shot, nor does he teamfight as strong as the rest of the assassins due to the damage reduction on multiple q's. If Zed's mobility was nerfed, his damage would have to be heavily increased. Please keep that in mind. His mobility is what keeps him balanced.

Vistha Kai9 votes

Ironically, that's how Zed worked in the past.

Death Mark used to place a shadow behind his target so he had to sacrifice his other shadow to escape and even then it was hard.

Yosuke Apperu5 votes

Imo, I'd rather lane against lb than zed. Post 6 zed is really strong, but lb gets insane kill pressure just by hitting level 2.

SnugglePuggle945 votes

LB has more counterplay because she has high cooldowns early, is squishy, and doesn't have the immunity like Zed. Just like Fizz, you have to bait out her W and then go in. She has to take risks if she wants to poke effectively. Zed can just sit back and throw his shrukians endlessly. I have been able to outwhit and outplay LB more times than not than I have ever done with Zed. She can be put up in the high risk/reward category with Kat and the others. Zed is alone in his category.

NapaIm5 votes

At least you can stop LB's dash with any form of cc. Zed's ult every freaking time ugh. Hate that, and I hate the new item he is getting.

Envy Sin4 votes

Zed Manaless champion. Let's be real here, Zed doesn't even use energy. He can. Shadow. Dagger, Stupid ass spinny shit x2, Ult, Dagger, Spinny shit. TP back to shadow. with a kill all in under a second. The best part? He's full of energy .2 seconds later.

Leblanc Uses mana for dash. If she's oom she's helpless.

The Deckowner2 votes

talon, shaco, kha, rengo and shaco(maybe akali but no one plays her) are true definition of assasins.

they go in, they kill someone, while risking their own safety.

its a whole different story with zed, lb, ahri, and some other which i dont even wanna mention mention.

they have very safe moblities, by very safe i mean very very safe!

they can go all in to you from a very far distance with their double/triple dash/blinks, and get out with the same way.

i think they should be forced to make a choice, if they use their gap closer to get in they shouldnt be allowed to get out with the same ability.

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

"i think they should be forced to make a choice, if they use their gap closer to get in they shouldnt be allowed to get out with the same ability."

You say this while listing Kha'zix as a healthy assassin lol.

The Deckowner4 votes

khazix need to actually kill histarget(which isnt easy) to get out while zed/lb/ahri can just use their dash/blink no matter what because they have 2 or 3 built in their kit?

just stop saying nonsense zed mains.

YCitizenSnipsY2 votes

Because its so hard for Kha'zix to assassinate a champion :/

http://champion.gg/champion/Khazix Oh would you look at that Kha'zix actually excels in kills. Stop talking out of your ass

The Deckowner3 votes

it's only when the carry is dumb enough to be isolated and the support arent doing shit.

kha's assasination is much more counterable than rengar's.

YCitizenSnipsY2 votes

Turn invisible, leap from invisibility onto carry, mash Q and try to kill as quick as possible.

Yep much different than Rengars pattern, and certainly more counterable what with no exclamation point and the reset on kill to leap out.

The Deckowner3 votes

the thing is rengar deliver the dmg so much faster with all the animation cancel he has in his kit.

Girard2 votes

[deleted]

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

All three of them average 9 kills a game in Plat+ so I'd say that no Kha'zix doesn't have all that hard of a time doing his job. If you ever looked any stats up for champions instead of just making claims based on anecdotal evidence you would see Kha'zix's is in the top 5 in kills per game of all junglers . The numbers don't lie Kha'zix doesn't have a hard time killing, maybe you do but other Kha'zix players don't.

And this thread is about saftey any way so tell me, how is Kha'zix anymore high risk/high reward when averages the exact same number of deaths a game that both Zed and Le Blanc do at 6.

AlwaysByMySide2 votes

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Middle&sortBy=general.deaths&order=descend

Notice how Ahri is statistically safer than any assassin in mid lane.

Azeria20118 votes

Except she was changed to be more like her original self - IE a mobile kite mage. Her being an assassin is secondary especially in gameplay, most Ahri's will only engage if they hit their charm if they don't they'll just kite with orb. The OP is talking about the champs whose gameplay revolves primarily around assassination (Talon, Katarina, Leblanc, Zed, etc).

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by L0ve Is Blue

This is litteraly the biggest hypocrisy I have seen from Riot in my whole life
Gameplay172 comments
223
votes
Just a little thank you to Riot for bringing back solo Queue
Gameplay61 comments
145
votes
Can we stop acting like queue times are more of a deal than game quality
Gameplay94 comments
136
votes
Stop picking champions you don't know how to play just to counter the enemy.
Gameplay63 comments
128
votes
Seriously 50% of this games balance issues would be clear if we just removed keystone masteries
Gameplay144 comments
114
votes
@Meddler Isn't autofill completely opposed to what the new champion select was supposed to bring?
Gameplay97 comments
103
votes