Why is jungle Shyvana not building jungle items?

Linna Excel··7 votes·1,071 views

Oh, the jungle items are pretty bad on her now. You know riot, it's pretty bad when your #1 power farmer in the jungle isn't even bothering to buy the item that is meant for her item 1416 because it costs her a few points of win rate when she gets it instead of something like the Bork. As much as I'm glad bloodrazor doesn't require people to farm for 20 minutes to fully stack it, as it stands right now, the item is pretty weak. When you've got a champion like shyvana who scales off of attack speed and she's not getting the AS item because it is hurting her, it's pretty obvious that the item is just bad.

So the question is, is the buff in AS going to fix the item. I don't know. I mean the extra 10% AS is going to be nice but frankly so few champions scale well off of AS, it's hard to say it will help. Let's be honest, AS doesn't make your skills hit any harder nor does it make your attacks any stronger. Then we've got the issue of how it deals physical damage. I think that's making bloodrazor weaker than it should be. Your average tank builds 300 armor and next to no MR. That 3% max health physical damage turns into 1%. Now for better or worse champs like shyvana don't build armor penetration (hard to justify it on shyvana and a black cleaver doesn't do her win rate any favors), nor do champs like Yi.

I think this is a pretty telling failure from riot's perspective. I mean sure someone like Yi probably should build armor pen, and unlike Shyvana his winrate is actually improved if he gets a last whisper item. Still, you have to look at what people are building across all elos. Tanks are building a lot of armor but for someone like shyvana, you can't justify a slot on armor penetration because she does mixed damage and shyvana gets one, maybe 2 damage items top (her most common build is just the one damage item). I think the only reason she's getting titanic hydra right now is because she's building enough health to make it viable.

So I think that bloodrazor is probably going to stay a bad item even after the 10% change just because the type of damage it deals. While some junglers could consider a good armor pen item, champs like shyvana can't. Bloodrazor isn't great on her by itself and I don't see shyvana getting a 3rd damage item to make the on-hit damage go through loads of armor.

12 Comments

Duke Anax1 votes

I think physical damage is better because it is affected by lifesteal and all AS based chaps are either pure AD or AD hybrid. And frankly with old Sated Rageblade everyone was Hybrid.

Also there are two items to deal with heavy armor Tanks.

Raiku Kawisa1 votes

LifeSteal doesn't apply to on-hit effects. Thats why Blade of the Ruined King and Ravenous Hydra state on the item that their on-hit effects proc lifesteal.

Duke Anax1 votes

Lol Wikia: Life steal is an offensive stat that restores health to the wielder for a percentage of all on-hit physical damage they deal. Basic attacks, abilities that apply on-hit effects, and abilities that modify basic attacks all benefit from lifesteal.

This is why Aatrox specifically states that his bonus damge doesn't apply lifesteal. Ravenous Hydra needs to specifies that it's AoE effect applies half lifesteal. Not sure why BorK bothers to mention it.

Raiku Kawisa3 votes

I stand corrected.

Linna Excel1 votes

I don't see shyvana building a ton of lifesteal though. I mean you could get a bork on her and hope it plus bloodrazor will deal enough on hit damage, but you'd still be losing a lot of damage against another tank. Most people won't get a ravenous hydra on her because they are getting a titanic instead.

Raiku Kawisa1 votes

Ya if they made Bloodrazer magic on-hit. Magic Pen Shyvana would go crazy. (Magic Dmg)Bloodrazer & Wits End. Maybe a Rageblade.

Profirix1 votes

I had a game recently where I played her. I had to go item 1413 item 3153 item 3091 item 3075 item 3009 item 3143 . I would have preferred to get bloodrazer but im convinced at this point that cinderhulk is more efficient on her. Rageblade is a trap on shyvana. Don't get it. Far too expensive and not worth unless you are going a near full damage build with additional on-hit.

Linna Excel1 votes

I can see why people would want to get a cinderhulk on her, but I'm not sure it's good on anyone at this point as even Sej's highest win rate build is going runic echos into a sunfire cape these days.

Profirix1 votes

I find the extra tankiness from Cinderhulk to be extremely effective on Shyvana because she has passive armor and MR.

LankPants1 votes

Since Cinder got buffed last patch it's a pretty good option now.

As for the Sej point, when taking a weighted proportional average of Cinder you find it has a winrate of 53.71%, while Runic Echos is at 52.4%, which is a 1.3% advantage for Cinder. The weighted proportional average is there to remove the influence of the smites, so you're just looking at the enchants.

If you want to check my maths it's

0.611+0.136+0.047=0.794 (pickrates of Cinder summed) 0.611/0.794=0.770 (proportion of blue smite Cinders) 0.536x0.770+54.5x0.171+52.8x0.059=53.71% (weighing each winrate by its proportion to find the average)

You can sub in other numbers to see the rest of what I did, I'm not going to post it all because there's a lot of math, but that's basically the method.

You can also do the same thing for Shyv, using Bloodrazor and Cinder of course. You find that Bloodrazor has a WPA winrate of 47.76% and Cinder's at 48.36%.

Statistically at least Cinder is the best item on both champs.

EPIKON1 votes

I main Shyvana.

summoner 4 summoner 11 item 1416 item 3009 item 3022 item 3091 item 3068 item 3748 item 3364

The way I play her, these items work just fine with current patch.

I just replaced item 3053 for item 3091 to add more attack speed and bonus magic damage with every aa. 40 MR and its passive are just bonus.

Since the patch, I'm holding 4.31 KDA (5.8 / 3.2 / 8) with 60% win rate in ranked games.

Both statistical numbers and hard carrying potential are definitely down however I can still live to see another day.

Since the patch, I'm playing more Evelynn and her numbers are quite impressive.

6.4 KDA (13.8 / 3.8 / 10.3) and 75% win rate in ranked games.

summoner 4 summoner 11 item 1412 item 3020 item 3152 item 3116 item 3748 item 3135 item 3340

Team wonders about the build in early to mid game however I do this because I max E first to do a ton of damage initially when ganking or counter ganking a lane and many are surprised by this and by third item item 3152 I have roughly 40% CD and can max to 45% with blue buff.

No complaints received even in losing games when I'm averaging 4.25 KDA with this build.

agbudar1 votes

it should have been magic damage to begin with its too easy to get armor these days

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