35 Comments
Critmaster Garen53 votesbot lane diversity and game snowball have different causes.
bot lane diversity is a result of marksmen item changes, and base stat changes, that makes crit marksmen scale slower and allows other champion types to play down there without getting bullied out of lane by auto attack poke.
game snowball is a result of years and years of riot stacking snowball mechanics into this game. turret first blood, removal of turret fortification on bot lane, increased early death timers, minion split push, baron empowered minions, turret health nerfs, turret bounty increases, rift herald buffs, baron damage nerfs, scuttle bounty ... all of these "win more" mechanics that make games snowball to hell and easier to win for a team that gets a slight advantage.
there is so much shit they added to try and get pro players to fight each other and LCS games not drawn out snore fests, that it almost ruined solo que.
the best part is, that these mechanics are entirely pointless to make pro games more interesting to watch. because all it did was make them play even more passive in fear that a slight mistep is costing them games and their jobs.
Purgë5 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qv0i56sl,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-06-29T14:46:58.032+0000)
bot lane diversity and game snowball have different causes.
bot lane diversity is a result of marksmen item changes, and base stat changes, that makes crit marksmen scale slower and allows other champion types to play down there without getting bullied out of lane by auto attack poke.
game snowball is a result of years and years of riot stacking snowball mechanics into this game. turret first blood, removal of turret fortification on bot lane, increased early death timers, minion split push, baron empowered minions, turret health nerfs, turret bounty increases, rift herald buffs, baron damage nerfs, scuttle bounty ... all of these "win more" mechanics that make games snowball to hell and easier to win for a team that gets a slight advantage.
there is so much shit they added to try and get pro players to fight each other and LCS games not drawn out snore fests, that it almost ruined solo que.
the best part is, that these mechanics are entirely pointless to make pro games more interesting to watch. because all it did was make them play even more passive in fear that a slight mistep is costing them games and their jobs.
agree even more the snowball of the game were much much more when everygame had an adc on it , they would just take ur bot turret at 3 min cause they can afford to auto attack the turret from range and cause the turret have no defense , and also cause adcs auto attack modifers works on towers(caityln tristana etc)
also the game is much MUCH much fun to play with or against melle botlane instead of ranged shit ,legit ranged adcs are so toxic in this game , i would face a fed vlad or irelia then to face a lucian or a caityln who one shot u from miles away and take all ur shit wihile being impossible to shutdown
playing against melle botlane gives u a chance to comeback
Saibbo10 votesthe best part is, that these mechanics are entirely pointless to make pro games more interesting to watch. because all it did was make them play even more passive in fear that a slight mistep is costing them games and their jobs.
the story of riot balancing this game
Josh Sand9 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qv0i56sl,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-06-29T14:46:58.032+0000)
bot lane diversity and game snowball have different causes.
bot lane diversity is a result of marksmen item changes, and base stat changes, that makes crit marksmen scale slower and allows other champion types to play down there without getting bullied out of lane by auto attack poke.
game snowball is a result of years and years of riot stacking snowball mechanics into this game. turret first blood, removal of turret fortification on bot lane, increased early death timers, minion split push, baron empowered minions, turret health nerfs, turret bounty increases, rift herald buffs, baron damage nerfs, scuttle bounty ... all of these "win more" mechanics that make games snowball to hell and easier to win for a team that gets a slight advantage.
there is so much shit they added to try and get pro players to fight each other and LCS games not drawn out snore fests, that it almost ruined solo que.
the best part is, that these mechanics are entirely pointless to make pro games more interesting to watch. because all it did was make them play even more passive in fear that a slight mistep is costing them games and their jobs.
That's true. If it's possible to ditch the snowballing garbage and keep bot lane dynamic, I'm good with that.
And to add onto your point, they've also strangled out vision, especially in the early game. Vision was one of the few ways you could stop the bleeding somewhat, and get a pick against a team that was pushing too far forward too fast. But now you can't even do that - You have people walking around with Duskblades, getting free ward clears over almost an entire jungle quadrant, regardless if they mentally carried the intention of actually clearing vision.
Remember when they put in the little destroyed ward marker so you could track an opposing team's warding habits? Why do you even need that now when you can just have your assassin autopilot through the jungle and knock out all the wards that happen to be within 750 units of their path.
You can't even buy a Sightstone anymore (not that it would help against the invisible junglers), and so now that everyone's vision has been standardized in the early game, you can't safely force aggression on the opposing duo unless you happen to know exactly where the jungler is.
I remember before that an aspect of the lane phase also consisted of feeling your lane opponent out... testing them to see if you could risk an all-in. Nowadays I don't even bother with probing for weaknesses because I can't afford to all-in, because I often can't guarantee 100% that I know where the enemy jungler is. So instead, if we get an advantage, we just freeze them off the wave and put the lane in a state where we are no longer interacting with our opponents. Whoop Dee Doo
But yea, every freaking snowball is the same. I can't keep vision up because they have two Duskblades and they just derp their way to vision contol, so we just sit in the base while we wait for them to get baron and close out the game. Or we can facecheck and die. Neither of which are exciting or interesting options.
My Waifu Vanilla3 votesVision has been up in the early game ever since they introduced trinkets in season 4. It has "slowly" declined A BIT with the change to trinket cooldowns and such but vision until first back has been VASTLY higher than the earlier seasons. The problem is midgame and beyond where trinket timers are on too long of a cooldown and wards are too hard to defend meaning the winning team SHOULD almost always keep the map black for the enemy team ESPECIALLY if the winning team is on blue side where red team can't even dream about contesting a control ward in baron pit.
The only "real" problem with Duskblade is the cooldown is arguably too short since it even rivals the red trinket in that regard or that it can POTENTIALLY clear multiple wards, but as an item it makes thematic sense and the users of the item is so very narrow.
Another thing is that the sightstone change is STILL largely irrelevant since all that happens is you get your sightstone maybe 2 minutes slower, but that really doesn't matter since bot lane still has access to an absurd amount of vision potential prior to that with 4 trinket charges and AT LEAST one control ward. The problem is still the fact that you can't do anything to "get" more vision as anyone without a support item. Control Wards generally don't last long enough and are USUALLY only good when you are ahead and with the recent trinket changes, while you might be a little bit safer in lane since the ward lasts longer, at any point after that your ward USUALLY doesn't last long enough to warrant the huge spike in cooldown since there are generally 2 sweepers running around on each team.
Teridax683 votesThis is exactly it, imo. The changes to crit may have some problems, but they have strictly no relation to the current state of damage and snowballing, since those problems were identical prior to that update. Whereas Riot had been starting to tone snowballing down around Season 5, it came back in full force come Preseason 6, with increasing amounts of damage, and nerfs to durability, being implemented in the process. A ton of champions since then have received changes to become more snowbally, and so by Riot's own admission (e.g. Ahri's mini-rework a little while back). If the game is to be snowbally, it needs to tone down its existing snowballing mechanics in place, not reinstate marksmen as the de facto masters of bot lane (especially since marksmen were/are a prime source of snowballing themselves).
I also very much agree that the addition of snowballing has backfired spectacularly. More snowballing means more risk, and if there's one thing pro players hate, it's risk. This is why ratcheting up snowballing has caused pro players to go increasingly deeper into strats that minimalize interaction with the enemy team, namely with turtling, and now gold funneling, and which often have the side-effect of stretching games out far beyond the point where they stop being interesting. On the flipside, standard play's a mess, because most players don't know how to play from behind, or at least from statistical disadvantages that can ramp up so quickly, and the net result is a game that, to most people, is about stomping or being stomped.
Personally, what I think is the crux of snowballing in League is how so many mechanics in the game award power with more power. If you get a lead, you get a whole bunch more stats, not just from items but also from runes themselves scaling with items, and that causes champions to spike way too hard. This, in turn, leads said champion to have an easier time getting gold through kills, towers, minions, etc. which only accelerates their power increase. Players on the losing side, by contrast, have increasingly fewer options, particularly since engaging enemies with a gold lead quickly becomes suicide. As such, games quickly devolve into a state where one side can steamroll the other at will, and the other feels trapped in a match where they've become utterly helpless. What's bad as well is that this isn't the point at which the game ends, because one team needs to either surrender or push to the nexus. Because players at most levels don't really know how to capitalize on leads to push hard either, there often ends up being this time period where one team should have definitely closed the game by now, but didn't, creating this awkward state where there's only really one possible outcome, but where everyone's just waiting for it to happen, compounding frustration. Because of this, I think League needs to start seriously toning down stat-based advantages, and instead reward victories with pushes towards the enemy nexus.
AstroFerrari 1 votesthe best part is, that these mechanics are entirely pointless to make pro games more interesting to watch. because all it did was make them play even more passive in fear that a slight mistep is costing them games and their jobs.
Man, this part really made me feel bad for pros. I mean it must be great to get paid for playing games but that just sounds stressful as fuck to constantly think about.
Sasogwa16 votesStill better than botlane deciding game no matter what other lanes did, and adc+ supp 2v8ing without a sweat
Just buff the goddamn towers Riot it's not complicated. And if you don't wanna buff outer turrets cause muh laning phase timers should be this way, then BUFF INNERS, INHIBITORS AND NEXUS ones.
EDIT : Yes sorry boards I love ardent censer bring back ADC + supp rolling over games I'm loving it.
...
CaptainAntiHeroz1 votesStill better than botlane deciding game no matter what other lanes did, and adc+ supp 2v8ing without a sweat
Just buff the goddamn towers Riot it's not complicated. And if you don't wanna buff outer turrets cause muh laning phase timers should be this way, then BUFF INNERS, INHIBITORS AND NEXUS ones.
EDIT : Yes sorry boards I love ardent censer bring back ADC + supp rolling over games I'm loving it.
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Never saw a bot lane carry when there's a 
on the enemy team.... Funny.....
My Waifu Vanilla4 votes
what zed?
CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qv0i56sl,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-30T02:59:28.613+0000)
No, cuz she'd get nuked in the same combo as her carry
maybe unless he has no idea how to play Ali or the carry is a one shot
... If he can catch Zed, definitely, if Zed goes from beind then rip your carry
can only silence so much, and her w costs 10% of her hp.... Soooooo.... If Zed can't kill the carry he'll take the soraka and if the silence was put under his r then maybe they'll trade
if they kill him while he's polymorphed or if wild growth gives them enough hp to live through the burst....
But I didn't really mean supports....
I meant the ones that take heal as an engage (looking at those adcs)
RyzeTheSmurfMage2 votesStill better than botlane deciding game no matter what other lanes did, and adc+ supp 2v8ing without a sweat
Just buff the goddamn towers Riot it's not complicated. And if you don't wanna buff outer turrets cause muh laning phase timers should be this way, then BUFF INNERS, INHIBITORS AND NEXUS ones.
EDIT : Yes sorry boards I love ardent censer bring back ADC + supp rolling over games I'm loving it.
...
Why is he getting downvoted? He is right
Kats Pajamas11 votesThe "I only play support" and "I only play ADC" people were the worst people in the game anyway. The game dynamic is fluid, and they demanded linear strategy based around them instead, every game.
If you don't know how to play Nasus or Zed Support, and if you don't know how to play Irelia and Yasuo AD carry, then you don't deserve to be shotcalling your team to be making plays around you when you've experimented the least of anyone else. The way Nasus players get better at Nasus is by playing him in 5 different roles and 3 different lanes and the jungle. I've yet to see Nami and Tristana do this the same way every other Champion develops in skill.
And the Irony of AD carries is best left with Hashinshins response, it's almost like they are mad some other role came into their lane, bullied them with counter mechanics, and pushed them out of their own lane(Like how AD carries that go top lane, counter top laners.) It's such a shame Bruisers use a strategy employed by literal AD carry players against top laners, but when it's in bot lane, all the sudden the game is 'unfun'. It's revealing of how boosted and propped up they are that they think they can complain like that. If you don't like it play ADC mid...
The real joke is just teams have to find coordinated AD carries that can play multiple lanes now, most of the people complaining only understand the games win conditions in a linear format and that is the main reason they are upset. If they have double bruiser bot, get a strong jg and place your AD carry on toplanes island to farm, against a character he directly counters, and you should win the game as easy as moving a lane. Don't just send your AD carry(the person that the whole team is trying to carry and protect) directly against 2 bruisers at the start of the game -_-. Or are we going to assume that's a fair dynamic and nerf bruisers so ADCs can compete with that? If they take 2 bruisers and sacrifice lategame range, isolate your adc and farm idk why it's so complicated. The entire reason jg adc funnel works well this meta is because their farm is isolated from duo bot lane bruisers, top lane and mid lane are pretty much just as acceptable.
OmegaNITRO10 votesWhen games snowball out of control early sacrificing late game range is irrelevant.
Doesn't matter if there ISN'T a late game.
And with their base stats nerfed, you think the ADCs that are tuned around playing in duo lanes will be able to win lane against champions tuned around playing in solo lanes, when they're struggling to win lane in their own lane?
Marksmen counter bruisers 1v1 in Top?
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesWhen games snowball out of control early sacrificing late game range is irrelevant.
Doesn't matter if there ISN'T a late game.
And with their base stats nerfed, you think the ADCs that are tuned around playing in duo lanes will be able to win lane against champions tuned around playing in solo lanes, when they're struggling to win lane in their own lane?
Marksmen counter bruisers 1v1 in Top?
because they spent all their money on 
TheOnionRouter5 votesquoting hashinshin in earnest
Opinion discarded honestly.
Solitair4 votesThe "I only play support" and "I only play ADC" people were the worst people in the game anyway. The game dynamic is fluid, and they demanded linear strategy based around them instead, every game.
If you don't know how to play Nasus or Zed Support, and if you don't know how to play Irelia and Yasuo AD carry, then you don't deserve to be shotcalling your team to be making plays around you when you've experimented the least of anyone else. The way Nasus players get better at Nasus is by playing him in 5 different roles and 3 different lanes and the jungle. I've yet to see Nami and Tristana do this the same way every other Champion develops in skill.
And the Irony of AD carries is best left with Hashinshins response, it's almost like they are mad some other role came into their lane, bullied them with counter mechanics, and pushed them out of their own lane(Like how AD carries that go top lane, counter top laners.) It's such a shame Bruisers use a strategy employed by literal AD carry players against top laners, but when it's in bot lane, all the sudden the game is 'unfun'. It's revealing of how boosted and propped up they are that they think they can complain like that. If you don't like it play ADC mid...
The real joke is just teams have to find coordinated AD carries that can play multiple lanes now, most of the people complaining only understand the games win conditions in a linear format and that is the main reason they are upset. If they have double bruiser bot, get a strong jg and place your AD carry on toplanes island to farm, against a character he directly counters, and you should win the game as easy as moving a lane. Don't just send your AD carry(the person that the whole team is trying to carry and protect) directly against 2 bruisers at the start of the game -_-. Or are we going to assume that's a fair dynamic and nerf bruisers so ADCs can compete with that? If they take 2 bruisers and sacrifice lategame range, isolate your adc and farm idk why it's so complicated. The entire reason jg adc funnel works well this meta is because their farm is isolated from duo bot lane bruisers, top lane and mid lane are pretty much just as acceptable.
This is literally entirely ass backwards. I used to play primarily fill. I played every role. Originally, I wanted to be a top laner. I found that consistently, ADC and Support were the least wanted roles. Maybe there were times here and there, like that really weird point right after the ADC update where no one really wanted to play mid. BUt usually, the least wanted roles were Support and AD. Whenever Riot would release little blurbs about their match data, especially after the fiasco of dynamic queue, it would corroborate this.
So it was actually the players of every other role who JUST HAD to get their lane--and the AD/support was what you had to do if you didn't get your lane. No, tops, mids, and jgs did not learn by playing their champion in every role. That's absolute ass. That's something one-tricks do, and also PEOPLE WHO MAIN THAT ROLE, not the champion, while trying to earn chests on that champion. So many people from other lanes DO NOT know how to play adc at even a basic level. You are saying the opposite. But by far the most phrases I heard while filling was "OH GOD DONT MAKE ME ADC" or "please not support". You have it absolutely backwards. How many people in other roles do not even know the basics of orbwalking? How many people do not weave in autos effectively because they have never had to practice animation cancelling on every auto? For so long, I always tell people just learn how to do this, it's a basic part of the game, and that they will also be able to play adc a bit more competently. They don't listen.
And this is why ADC mains often specialize. Because they TAKE THE TIME to master a basic mechanic that nobody else really wants to learn unless they are actually smart. Meanwhile, with the exception of the brunt of the shield meta, support mains were basically doing the rest of the game a goddamn favor because no one wanted to play that role for years.
No one complained about ADC and support only players because there was a shortage enough as it was. It was so bad, that I went from fill, to basically a support main, because with the role picking feature, support is generally the role that keeps queues long because no one likes it or knows how to do it properly.
And the times that I had fill supports that weren't me? Well everyone has horror stories of the top laner or mid laner "support" that doesn't know how to support , and just picks their main champion, and basically afks unless they can take an easy kill. So yea. You are way off base. I still would find myself feeling like I have to q for support even when all I really want to do was play mid like everyone else.
Nipsahoy1 votesThe "I only play support" and "I only play ADC" people were the worst people in the game anyway. The game dynamic is fluid, and they demanded linear strategy based around them instead, every game.
If you don't know how to play Nasus or Zed Support, and if you don't know how to play Irelia and Yasuo AD carry, then you don't deserve to be shotcalling your team to be making plays around you when you've experimented the least of anyone else. The way Nasus players get better at Nasus is by playing him in 5 different roles and 3 different lanes and the jungle. I've yet to see Nami and Tristana do this the same way every other Champion develops in skill.
And the Irony of AD carries is best left with Hashinshins response, it's almost like they are mad some other role came into their lane, bullied them with counter mechanics, and pushed them out of their own lane(Like how AD carries that go top lane, counter top laners.) It's such a shame Bruisers use a strategy employed by literal AD carry players against top laners, but when it's in bot lane, all the sudden the game is 'unfun'. It's revealing of how boosted and propped up they are that they think they can complain like that. If you don't like it play ADC mid...
The real joke is just teams have to find coordinated AD carries that can play multiple lanes now, most of the people complaining only understand the games win conditions in a linear format and that is the main reason they are upset. If they have double bruiser bot, get a strong jg and place your AD carry on toplanes island to farm, against a character he directly counters, and you should win the game as easy as moving a lane. Don't just send your AD carry(the person that the whole team is trying to carry and protect) directly against 2 bruisers at the start of the game -_-. Or are we going to assume that's a fair dynamic and nerf bruisers so ADCs can compete with that? If they take 2 bruisers and sacrifice lategame range, isolate your adc and farm idk why it's so complicated. The entire reason jg adc funnel works well this meta is because their farm is isolated from duo bot lane bruisers, top lane and mid lane are pretty much just as acceptable.
Quoting Hashinshin the guy who only plays top and complains endlessly until the champs he plays are the only viable options. Legitimate opinion. It's ridiculous that bullshit melee champ can power spike off one item then build defensively and still have lethal damage to squishies. You delay the power spike for ranged carries to 3-4 items so they don't become viable until games are nearly over if they even make it to that point. Awful design.
ISLAMICWARRIOR995 votesLiterally anyone with a brain could have told you making bruisers viable bot would fuck over marksmen and make the game aids. As much as boards likes to jack off about how weak bruisers are, they have some of the best kits in the game and the better they are the more useless everything but tanks become.
Doctor Taeyeon4 votesI like this meta
RyzeTheSmurfMage1 votes[{quoted}](name=Captain Sido,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qv0i56sl,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-06-29T17:42:10.720+0000)
I like this meta
I feel every patch the players whose problems got solved quit boards and are replaced by other players with different problems. 2 patches ago everyone (including me I quited League for 2 weeks because of the whole "better ADC WINS" thing) was complaining about how strong are ADCs, and now ADC mains are triggered that the game no longer depends just on them.
Solitair1 votesI feel every patch the players whose problems got solved quit boards and are replaced by other players with different problems. 2 patches ago everyone (including me I quited League for 2 weeks because of the whole "better ADC WINS" thing) was complaining about how strong are ADCs, and now ADC mains are triggered that the game no longer depends just on them.
It never did depend on just them. As much as people like to pretend, there was still agency in the other roles barring an enormous skill discrepancy. AD's didn't like it either, for the record, because of how everyone would come in to gank their lane and take their turret. It felt really bad to be winning lane then have enemy mid, top, and jg come and party in your lane all night long.
Metallikaiser4 votesI mean, all the other issues existed before the botlane diversity patch...
MasterDClone3 votesCarries exploding... insurmountable snowballs... impotent towers... tedious game close outs...
all those things you mentioned were there before the adc update patch came in.
Lost R2 votesAs I have said multiple times, this is exactly what people wanted. Quick games, quickly decided games, and people have been spamming surrenders at 0 for years, besides.
Azeranth2 votesNot all of those issues are connected, and forsaking the current bot diversity is not the only path to correcting the issues you named https://youtu.be/IqHyzU1reGw here is a good start for a lot of the snowball problems
Stars Shaper2 votesI'm still waiting for Artillery/Siege meta to be a thing.
I want to see 
in the LCS for at least one season.
PrinceOfStorms1 votesPoke meta has existed and it's pretty boring. You don't see Xerath so much as you see champions like Ziggs, Ezreal, and Nidalee being top tier.
KazaJhodo1 votesFunny. The balance team has no idea either. Clearly.
Nothing like virtually eliminating a career for your pro players. Planned. Right? This was planned? Tee heeeeeeee ::bounds off into the distance::
Mimr2 votesFunny. The balance team has no idea either. Clearly.
Nothing like virtually eliminating a career for your pro players. Planned. Right? This was planned? Tee heeeeeeee ::bounds off into the distance::
God forbid marksmen mains having to play something else. Like literally everyone that isn't a marksman main because all other position have multiple viable champion classes.
Malix Farwin1 votes@OP thats the thing though, theres an easy solution to this problem. Buff ADCs numbers and make them sturdier.
Kelg1 voteswtf i love bushido blade now
Laceration1 votesAgreed.
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