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Now that Yuumi has been released, can Riot please put a VETERAN designer on the next support champ?

Josh Sand··52 votes·15,092 views

I thought Yuumi was a terrible champion on paper, but she's actually even worse in game, and I am at a total loss on how a champ like this could be improved without breaking her.

Her simplistic kit not only makes her feel like the vanilla latte of support champions (which nobody was asking for), but it also means that she has about the same balance flexibility as Garen. She's basically just a bag of bonus stats with a gimmicky skillshot, and an ultimate that's almost impossible to miss with.

Point and click shields are some of the most dated, and least interactive abilities in this game, and because of that, the Enchanter class desperately needs more skill tests added to it, before we accidentally fall into another Ardent Censer meta.

Year after year, I see so many overloaded kits coming out for every class except Enchanters, and now we get Yuumi - the champion that makes me feel like I got served a hamburger while seated in a Mexican restaurant.

Can Riot please just start putting serious resources into modernizing Enchanter kits and giving them some interesting skill tests?

114 Comments

The thigh guy33 votes

Careful. They’ll put ct on the next support and we’ll get another Pyke. Except this time his execute will double as a escape and put him under the nearest friendly turret or something.

Josh Sand8 votes

Or give his ultimate global range.

If they make another Pyke i'm driving my car off a bridge

The thigh guy7 votes

[{quoted}](name=ixi Josh Sand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYOnyQQk,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-05-15T14:44:19.218+0000)

Or give his ultimate global range.

If they make another Pyke i'm driving my car off a bridge

Agreed. I fucking hate Ekko, but I’d rather deal with him than Pyke.

Ryusaether1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ixi Josh Sand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYOnyQQk,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-05-15T14:44:19.218+0000)

Or give his ultimate global range.

If they make another Pyke i'm driving my car off a bridge

Now come and tell me Pyke doesn't require skill tests tho.

The thigh guy2 votes

{quoted}

Now come and tell me Pyke doesn't require skill tests tho.

Pyke is just an easier thresh. -.-

Josh Sand1 votes

I agree, Pyke definitely requires skill tests, but I'm hoping Riot can do that for the Enchanter type champs too.

My frustration with Pyke comes from the fact that there isn't really a vulnerability window if he fails his engage. And you cant exactly poke him when hes fishing for hooks either. Not a lot of ways to punish him for how much upside his initiation has.

Ryusaether1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ixi Josh Sand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYOnyQQk,comment-id=0002000000010001,timestamp=2019-05-17T01:24:17.363+0000)

I agree, Pyke definitely requires skill tests, but I'm hoping Riot can do that for the Enchanter type champs too.

My frustration with Pyke comes from the fact that there isn't really a vulnerability window if he fails his engage. And you cant exactly poke him when hes fishing for hooks either. Not a lot of ways to punish him for how much upside his initiation has.

I get what you mean, but it's also true that if he commits his engage you can snare/stun him and completely delete him with the proper focus, since they got rid of his tank build, and while he's charging the hook he's slowed as well so it's easier to aim skillshots at him, he has windows of counterplay, even if small they are enough to allow you to kill him.

Pika Fox8 votes

All of CTs champs are good. Stop complaining.

The thigh guy30 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYOnyQQk,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2019-05-15T15:08:07.321+0000)

All of CTs champs are good. Stop complaining.

To play. Sure. To play against. Fuck no

Pika Fox4 votes

All champs suck to play against. Yas is no more annoying than soraka or morgana or rammus.

The thigh guy21 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYOnyQQk,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2019-05-15T16:06:30.658+0000)

All champs suck to play against. Yas is no more annoying than soraka or morgana or rammus.

No. I’d deal with any of those over yas or akali. Any of them. Ct designs the most cancerous shit in this game.

Pika Fox3 votes

Id rather deal with yas or akali. Both are easy to handle if you understand their threat range and disengage when they pop their only defensive CD. Even as lux, yas is a minor annoyance at best.

The thigh guy15 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYOnyQQk,comment-id=000200010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-15T16:19:37.020+0000)

Id rather deal with yas or akali. Both are easy to handle if you understand their threat range and disengage when they pop their only defensive CD. Even as lux, yas is a minor annoyance at best.

Akali’s threat range. -.- with her 3 unconditional dashes, 57 ms steroids and execution potential along with the most r%%%%%ed mechanic ever made(stealth).

Pika Fox2 votes

Her threat range isnt that large, given her only non ult gap closer is minion blockable and a delayed skillshot that even her stealth blocks.

The thigh guy10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYOnyQQk,comment-id=00020001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-15T17:00:14.835+0000)

Her threat range isnt that large, given her only non ult gap closer is minion blockable and a delayed skillshot that even her stealth blocks.

I think we are playing two very different games. Her dash range is turret to turret.

Pika Fox2 votes

Her skillshot isnt. She cannot dash to you unless she hits you with her skillshot first.

The thigh guy10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYOnyQQk,comment-id=0002000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-15T17:27:22.848+0000)

Her skillshot isnt. She cannot dash to you unless she hits you with her skillshot first.

She can still throw it backwards and dash in whatever direction she wants. She has 3 unconditional dashes and one conditional dash. :/

Pika Fox2 votes

A very tiny distance that often isnt as good as just walking in that direction, unless used against a small wall to jump over it.

And the other two are on her ult, which is a massive CD for her to blow, and the distance on them isnt too spectacular for an ult, its mostly for the R2 execute

The thigh guy8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYOnyQQk,comment-id=000200010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-15T18:24:56.229+0000)

A very tiny distance that often isnt as good as just walking in that direction, unless used against a small wall to jump over it.

And the other two are on her ult, which is a massive CD for her to blow, and the distance on them isnt too spectacular for an ult, its mostly for the R2 execute

Okay. So you’d argue that ahri isn’t mobile enough? A champion with less dashes under more restrictions than akali’s that people bitch about being “too safe” because of her mobility.

The thigh guy8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYOnyQQk,comment-id=00020001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-05-15T18:45:21.229+0000)

Ahri is far more mobile than akali, her ult giving her access to 3 movement abilities whos damage is not tied to going through the target, as well as a movespeed buff on Q. Even then, her movement is mostly tied into her ult (which likely has a lower CD than akalis, idk if they buffed akalis ult CD, but it might be heavily reduced lategame which is rare anyway). Someone like talon or gragas or even tristana are more mobile than either, and mids who dont have mobility have more than enough range to stay out of akalis threat radius.

Ahri is far more of a threat to mids than akali or yasuo are.

Holy shit dude...... I think I actually just lost brain cells reading that.

Please tell me you are trolling?

floo4 votes

It's pointless to argue with him. He's just contrary to any opinion on this board for the sake of being contrary. He'd probably argue that yas is immobile because he needs minions to dash to.

Big Tiddy Fox GF1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYOnyQQk,comment-id=00020001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000010005,timestamp=2019-05-16T19:57:19.611+0000)

Read further in. I was using an example. Ahri is considered highly mobile, and he was trying to argue that akali’s mobility isn’t that good.

I know, I was replying to this guy talking non-sence

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Tiddy Fox GF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYOnyQQk,comment-id=00020001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000010006,timestamp=2019-05-16T23:19:38.128+0000)

I know, I was replying to this guy talking non-sence

Ah. Okay.

ZephyrDrake23 votes

riot releases an "overloaded" champion "rito y u mak only LC$ champions!" riot releases a relative simple champion "rito y u mak simple champion!"

ChaosReyn12 votes

Now that Yuumi has been released, can the community please take a breather so we can all stfu and ask the real questions?

WHY are a talking cat and an armored bear in the League of Legends?

Zirene, back me up please...

Craft Zeppelin3 votes

{quoted}

Now that Yuumi has been released, can the community please take a breather so we can all stfu and ask the real questions?

WHY are a talking cat and an armored bear in the League of Legends?

Zirene, back me up please...

Fricking hell. Not that ancient meme again lmao

ChaosReyn1 votes

There are two types of people.

You are the type who gets respect. :P

The others are too young for me, probably. xD

halloprinzessin9 votes

With all due respect, I have to question this:

Her simplistic kit not only makes her feel like the vanilla latte of support champions (which nobody was asking for)

I'm sorry but huh? You try to make this point as though most of the supports in solo q aren't inherently easy. There are some who are much more complex than many of their counterparts, however, there is still the grand majority of them who are almost overly simplistic (see: Lux, Sona, Soraka, Blitzcrank, Janna, Alistar, to name a few).

So I'd say that it is perfectly a-okay Riot released yet another easy-to-play support champion into the mix because, in my opinion, that is not really Yuumi's downfall. Instead, I'd say that her biggest problem and why she's not viable or enjoyable right off the bat is that her base stats -- to be blunt -- really suck, and her kit is a little all over the place. To me, she sounded absolutely OP on paper, yet somehow Riot couldn't execute that same level of OP-ness in practice as well. /shrugs

MiracleMorg942 votes

FYI- Lux is a mid lane mage with support as her SECONDARY role. She's not a main support champ.

halloprinzessin1 votes

{quoted}

FYI- Lux is a mid lane mage with support as her SECONDARY role. She's not a main support champ.

That may have been true previously, but it is not the case anymore https://na.op.gg/champion/lux/statistics/support

According to OP.GG, Lux is a... Support: 79.02% of games played (Tier 2) Mid: 20.98% of games played (Tier 4) (Where Tier 1 [best] --> Tier 5 [worst])

/shrugs

MiracleMorg943 votes

Those are stats. Doesn't classify her as a main support. It's still true, and still the case.

She was created as a mid lane mage. Still is one. Again, only going bot because the meta has pushed her there for the time being- too many high mobility overpowered assassins right now.

Prestige AkaIi1 votes

Zyra was a midlaner until the meta shifted her to support, same with morgana. Blitzcrank was originally designed as a midlaner as well. Thresh was originally designed as a toplaner.

Lux may have been a midlaner, and still doesn't fit the support role imo, but I just wanted to point out that it isn't uncommon at all for champs designed for other roles to be pushed support. Just because she was designed as a midlaner doesn't mean she isn't considered a support now, like so many other champs before her.

MiracleMorg941 votes

Zyra and Morgana were pushed bot by Riot, just like Karma. They were forced there.

Lux is STILL a midlaner that goes bot, just like Xerath, Vel'Koz and Brand. They aren't real supports like Nami, Sona, Janna, etc.

TomiMan71 votes

Try playing Brand in the midlane vs botlane once in your life, and you will see why "midlaner that goes bot" doesnt hold up

MiracleMorg941 votes

Cause Brand's numbers were changed, that's why. That isn't the case for the others- Lux, Vel, Xerath- they were pushed bot because of the abundance of high mobility overpowered shit.

There's a difference bro, so yes, "midlaner that goes bot" does hold up.

TomiMan71 votes

You are completely clueless why then lol. Go to op.gg or lolalitics, or u.gg and check midlane brands cs score and gold. It is amongst the top3/top10 worst alomgst all midlaners. There were patches were only leblanc had lowers cs than brand and she is known to have absolutely shit waveclear. Why go mid when you earn lower gold than as a support because you have dogshit waveclear and push potential. Try again when you ACTUALLY understand why brand is played as a support. There is a reason why riot just buffed his E to help his waveclear.

MiracleMorg941 votes

I'm not clueless. Be respectful.

Maybe you need to go look through the patch notes then bud. When they nerfed his numbers, he went bot. Not because he has bad waveclear right now.

Try again when you can respond in a nice way, and not belittle people who actually know what they are talking about.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

TomiMan71 votes

I have over a million mastery point with brand so maybe, just MAYBE i know the champ just little bit better. I've spent more time anallising those sites data than you have spent playing the champ.

Here have some knowledge.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BrandMains/comments/b9rto6/riot_is_completely_abandoned_brand_as_a_midlaner/

Read. Understand. Then come back.

MiracleMorg941 votes

Looks like you still need too. That page says "due to the passive nerfs" saying that he went bot and left mid lane because of it, which is what I've been saying all along.

Mastery points don't care if you don't take the time to learn what Riot does with the champ in the meantime.

TomiMan71 votes

That post was created by me, so i exactly know what it says and why. The only reason why brand WAS barely playable in the midlane cos he had the overtuned passive dmg, and you could poke the enemy out of lane, and thats it. You couldnt push them under turret and roam, or just farm it up and scale. None of them works. If you cannot see the correlation between things dont talk about them.

MiracleMorg941 votes

I know how Brand mid worked.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

TomiMan71 votes

doesnt seem so if you think the only reason he is played as a support is that the good old "he has high base low ratio" stuff.

Josh Sand3 votes

Don't get me wrong, my main thrust is that I want more complexity added to Enchanters, and I think Yuumi is not only yet another simplistic enchanter, she also has an insanely boring kit. At least with a champion like Soraka, or Lux, or Janna, some kind of aim is required in order to land some of their spells, there's some more nuance to them besides being a glorified stat-hat.

I think the Enchanter class is already suffering from a lack of mechanical skill tests, and Yuumi is just one more boring ass kit that is getting thrown onto the pile.

There is space on the roster for an Enchanter with a really high mastery curve, and this could have been the time for Riot to fill that void - and Yuumi fails to close that gap. I don't see her adding anything amazing to the Enchanter role that wasn't already done by other champs that were already there before her.

If you want a good example, look at the Taric rework. There are other Vanguard supports like Braum and Tahm Kench, and pre-rework Taric had a pretty similar playstyle to those guys. But reworked Taric created an entirely different way to play a Tank support, which adds a lot of variety to the game and has given rise to some (admittedly cheesy) new game strategies.

I would love to see Riot create an Enchanter with the same depth of thought that they did with Taric. I don't think that's too much to ask, given how much people hate the Enchanter's hallmark of point and click shields.

Vekkna3 votes

Aren't these dudes kind of what you're looking for?

Rakan Bard

Josh Sand3 votes

Bard

To me Bard represents the highest end of Support utility. He's a generalist that can fit into a lot of different categories, but hes not a straight up protective Enchanter, per se. He can engage at range, create flanks and ganks, assist tower dives, complicate enemy objectives, etc. He's pretty much a swiss army knife, even moreso than Thresh. Since he can do so many different things, his defensive utility isnt as high impact as someone like Soraka or Janna.

Bar's kit is broad but shallow, and I'm hoping to see something more narrow and deeper, if that makes sense.

Rakan

Rakan is actually really damn close to what would be an insanely good enchanter, but most of his power budget is spent on his hard engage, rather than being a protective peeler.

I agree though, that hes a phenomenal example of a creatively designed, high mastery support champ. If Riot could make a straight enchanter with the same level of depth, I would be tickled pink.

halloprinzessin3 votes

[{quoted}](name=ixi Josh Sand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYOnyQQk,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2019-05-15T16:37:27.495+0000)

Don't get me wrong, my main thrust is that I want more complexity added to Enchanters, and I think Yuumi is not only yet another simplistic enchanter, she also has an insanely boring kit. At least with a champion like Soraka, or Lux, or Janna, some kind of aim is required in order to land some of their spells, there's some more nuance to them besides being a glorified stat-hat.

I think the Enchanter class is already suffering from a lack of mechanical skill tests, and Yuumi is just one more boring ass kit that is getting thrown onto the pile.

There is space on the roster for an Enchanter with a really high mastery curve, and this could have been the time for Riot to fill that void - and Yuumi fails to close that gap. I don't see her adding anything amazing to the Enchanter role that wasn't already done by other champs that were already there before her.

If you want a good example, look at the Taric rework. There are other Vanguard supports like Braum and Tahm Kench, and pre-rework Taric had a pretty similar playstyle to those guys. But reworked Taric created an entirely different way to play a Tank support, which adds a lot of variety to the game and has given rise to some (admittedly cheesy) new game strategies.

I would love to see Riot create an Enchanter with the same depth of thought that they did with Taric. I don't think that's too much to ask, given how much people hate the Enchanter's hallmark of point and click shields.

Admittedly, I wasn't playing League when pre-reworked Taric existed (truth be told, I had no idea he even got reworked at all).

But regardless, you do make some decent points here. Yuumi was -- to me, and by pure speculation -- supposed to be that "something new and improved" factor the Enchanter class needed... It is not some incredibly clandestine secret that, as a support champion, she winds up falling insanely short of whatever Riot was aiming for and had wanted her to be.

RavenMagus6 votes

Yummi's a lot of fun and actually pretty good. Just don't treat her like a normal support.

I'm actually really happy her kit is mostly simple. It's a refreshing change from all the new champs that have 3 mechanics on every skill.

And yet she somehow still has a good amount of complexity come midgame+.

Pika Fox5 votes

Interesting skill tests.... You mean like jumping off team member to proc shield to jump back on and supply heals, or when to jump off to add auto damage to the lane, or jumping off to extend Q range?

Josh Sand14 votes

Point and click abilities are the lowest skill test in the game. The mechanics required to successfully cast a point and click spell are similar to the mechanics required to buy an item from the store, or move your character around on the map.

You are conflating a skill test with a game decision - the two are completely different aspects that effect one another.

Shielding someone with Lulu is a simplistic skill test, and the forethought that you put into timing that spell is not a mechanical test - it's a result of your observational ability and game knowledge.

If you know when to shield someone with Lulu, then you know when to shield someone with Lux, but the difference is that with Lux, you have to actually aim your spell - which makes it a greater skill test than Lulu's shield.

So if you want to start calling point and click spells "skill tests," you should also acknowledge that it's literally at the bottom rung of every single type of skill test in this game - and that one's efficacy of said spells are more of a result of the player's game knowledge than them being able to meet the mechanical demands of that skill.

Rıots Bad Client3 votes

I think there is to much Powerbudget going in her gimmick which is to latch on to allies, despite that being not that strong.

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