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A Thread about Terrible Junglers

ModCaptainMårvelous··22 votes·12,139 views

Hi there. My name is Cap. I like fucking terrible junglers. playing junglers that are fucking awful. (You all had to be stopped)

Let me begin by saying I'm not talking about your B-D tier junglers or the stuff boards usually complains about (Jungle Udyr won a game says a lot about the TERRIBLE GAMESTATE am I right?). I'm talking about legitimately bad junglers. Jungle Urgot. Jungle Swain. Jungle Yorick. I really, really enjoy these odd ball picks. Part of it is because I'm quite bad at CSing and laning. But you know what I've found in my time playing these junglers?

Many are only held back by the smallest of things.

Now, obviously, if these changes went through to make champions viable in the jungle it'd break their laning. It has always been the case for Riot and League...but what if it didn't? A long time ago I proposed a change/addition to the jungle build items. Shave off 150g from talisman/machete and make the new item a 300g jungle item. It doesn't provide great stats but, instead, augments something about your champion to let them jungle better. Every champion in the game could have a jungle buff that could truly open the jungle up to anyone and allow for a separate tweak Riot can use to balance junglers. Most of all, it'd help accomplish Riot's goal of adding diversity and unique picks. Now you can balance every champ for laning while the new item is more about balancing around the jungle.

That said, there are drawbacks:

  • A lot of balance to make it happen (130+ champs need a unique enchant)
  • A lot of champs probably just can't jungle. (Lookin' at you Soraka)
  • Pretty volatile early implementation (Expect broken picks for a handful of patches)
  • Might mess with champs who are already junglers.

All this said, I'd like to hear opinions. So many champs in my time playing honestly awful junglers have made me realize there are aspects about them that can make for great junglers. They just need a small push (albeit that small push can break them). Lemme know what you think, why it'd be a good (or bad) idea and some terrible junglers you've found that really just need one small buff to skyrocket them from trash tier to "Pickable in the LCS".

75 Comments

Akali is SO HOT33 votes

{quoted}

I like fucking terrible junglers.

We all have our kinks I guess

ModCaptainMårvelous16 votes

You stop this right now.

Davaken11 votes

What a coincidence, as I am a terrible jungler ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

I think this is your chance.

koshkyra2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=quruXj79,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-28T03:38:14.904+0000)

We all have our kinks I guess

You beat me to it wtf

IcyPepper8 votes

I like fucking terrible junglers.

Only if they buy me a drink first.

Demon King Maou7 votes

I'm a simple man I see yellow nametags i upvote.

Tbw interesting idea i like it : p

ModCaptainMårvelous9 votes

Please don't just upvote me because my name is a different color.

I'm not immune to bad/terrible threads and you shouldn't just approve of what I do because my name is a fancy color.

Demon King Maou11 votes

{quoted}

Please don't just upvote me because my name is a different color.

I'm not immune to bad/terrible threads and you shouldn't just approve of what I do because my name is a fancy color.

Let me rephrase that then I see a fellow off meta gamer i upvote https://i.imgur.com/4jMUWhN.jpg

EvilUnicornLord6 votes

Off-meta is on-point.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

Off-meta is on-point.

Join us fellow off meta kinsman! We shall create a glorious group of off Meta teamates!

CaptainMårvelous shall be our leader.

Lead the way CAPT'n

EvilUnicornLord1 votes

Okay but I need to ask my mom first.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Demon King Maou,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=quruXj79,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-28T03:42:55.464+0000)

Let me rephrase that then I see a fellow off meta gamer i upvote https://i.imgur.com/4jMUWhN.jpg

Where have all of you guys been all my time in LoL.

THIS IS MY TRIBE!! We must make a Off-Meta group for everyone who loves off meta champs/comps immediately!!

PhantomGG4 votes

Honestly down voting, because anyone who knowingly picks off meta, terrible sol wolf picks, which instantly puts their own team at a own disadvantage is just selfish and kinda douche baggy.

Go ahead down vote me, but it's not fair for your four other teamates, all because you wanted to have "fun"

ModCaptainMårvelous22 votes

Ah, this post.

1.) I don't do this in ranked.

2.) I generally ask if it's ok.

3.) I work with my team and pick normally if they don't want to play with a weird jungler.

You can go off-meta without being a dick about it, my dude.

IcyPepper1 votes

Have you ever gone off-meta with a pick you're comfortable with in a ranked game tho? Or do you only do off-meta for fun?

Z3Sleeper1 votes

I have. I nearly one-tricked Yorick in the jungle all of season 7.

According to my year in review, Yorick was my most played champion in both top and jungle, skarner coming in 2nd as jungle (this was before skarner was meta).

I don't remember my exact winrates, but they were exceedingly positive and I made Diamond with those picks.

Every season I've played almost exclusively off-meta champions and have done fairly well. This season I'm playing semi-meta, one-tricking Yorick top. He's not exactly off-meta, but he's not meta either.

Edit: 55% winrate Yorick jg/top (mostly jungle that season I think), and 67% winrate skarner.

As long as you know the strengths of your pick, feel free to whip them out. I've seen Rakan mid in high diamond games doing work, they're the whole reason I whip it out in normals now.

TempName548464 votes

the virgin off meta player in normals, making sure its okay, works with his team towards victory vs chad the meta slayer, doesn't know chat exists, doesn't know he has a team, picks the champions purely due to their aesthetics ascending logic first timing ap sivir jungle in ranked, single handedly carries every game

Azeranth1 votes

This is the level of NA SoloQ that I aspire to each and every day. Continue doing the lords work my friend

Tin Obliterates3 votes

{quoted}

Hi there. My name is Cap. I like fucking terrible junglers.

Welp... Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

420 grams2 votes

Do you ever play Twisted Treeline? You get start with machete, tailsman, and refillable potion and jungle won't kill you like how raptors will on 5 v 5.

Andrey03452 votes

For some reason I thought at first this post is about players, not champions.

Apocyliptic1 votes

The simplest fix is allowing their abilities to do bonus damage to monsters. I know riot doesn't like things like these, but it seems fine to me. The only possible drawback is mids farming jungle camps, but they can do that now anyway.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Depends.

As an example, Swain's Q is great for jungling. The biggest issue is that the CD makes it so that even bonus damage wouldn't help. When Q's base CD was lowered, it greatly helped his jungle because it let you spam it semi-frequently. Every jungler needs something a little different.

AnubissWarior1 votes

What is stopping champions taking jung item in lane? You said that each champion is lacking in some department, if they wouldnt be they could jungle, but if they would be buffed to be able to jungle, that would break their laning phase- i take it that ''break'' is meant as ''OMEGALULSOOP''. So whats really stopping players from taking the item in lane?

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

Plenty of ways to do that.

You can make the effect only work on monsters/epic monsters. You can make the effect only work in jungle quadrants (ala the way the regen works now) or rivers. You can force it to have smite without Summoner Spellbook, etc. There are countless ways to circumvent the issue of the smite-top lane issue that I don't think the abuse in-lane is an issue.

Alternatively, have the effect be a bonus to a different aspect of jungling (Such as ganking or mobility) that isn't as effective or important to lanes.

AnubissWarior1 votes

You know, many people might not agree, but i think putting champion specific interactions is a good way to balance the game, it will require a lot more work than changes which affect all champions equally, but i think it will give league gameplay play better quality. Might not mean much or anything at all, but you have my support.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

I oppose this. I do not think every champion should be able to jungle in the context I believe you are asking, reasonably healthy and quick clears.

Why, because THAT would most certainly kill jungle. I commented on a post a while ago to a person who thought ganking ability was the most important aspect about what makes a good jungler and pointed out thresh is a great ganker but a terrible jg because his clear and health speed suck.

If what your asking for came true then that person would be right. But there is stuff much worse than Thresh when you think about it. There was a reason Riot tried to keep Camille out of the jg. Because if allowed to do it well, she would be able to gank at will almost anyone who isnt undertower. No one would ever play aggressive if the enemy team had a Pyke who could compete with top tier junglers.

The jg meta would devolve into those kind picks and champions with globals only imo.

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

To counter your point, I present an easy example: Karthus

I'm certain you know because it's old as League itself but Karthus is a fucking monster jungler. Insane clear speed, fairly healthy and the changes to the jungle have only made his life easier. The problem, however, is twofold: One is that he's pretty weak to invades early. Two is that his gank potential is pretty trash unless he has rylais or is against an immobile opponent.

Karthus, if this item magically went live, would need help in a different category. But that is the big thing: Each champion who needs jungle help does not necessarily need help in the same place. Sure, some champs need better clears but that doesn't mean make their clears on-par with the fastest, safest junglers. Sure, some champs would need easier ganks but that doesn't mean they'd be emerging from the jungle with Nautilus levels of CC.

This would also open the meta more. Say you have a meta where ganking is the easiest/meta thing. Well, now you've got more options: Global champions. Champions with hardcore ganking tools. Champions who mash out ganks as soon as possible thanks to lightning clears. Yes, you will ALWAYS have an A-tier list. That doesn't mean you can't soften the problems between A and B tier or remove the S and the F tier. There is no singular fix for every single champion in the jungle, hence why I said that it'd be an incredible balance juggling act. But in the end, I feel that it'd be worth it to truly open the jungle up to any oddball pick.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

Imo you are not picking Karthus jg for his early ganking potential. Which is why I said the meta would devolve into global jgs (karthus) amd heavy gank junglers. You dont need Naut level CC. Just a gap closer and hard CC. For many of these champions balance in the jg and lane position just wouldnt be possible.

Every laner would hate this meta as laning would turn into "pick the safest laning champion" and wait for jg if the other laner ever leaves the safety of tower.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

And then the issue becomes what counters those heavy gank/global junglers? So you have duelist junglers who go in and take your shit because you don't have great 1v1 scenarios.

The best junglers in the game usually have a mix of ganking, speedy clears and duel potential. This is also why you put more emphasis on the item itself: The item is indepdent from the champion, which means you cna make lane adjustments and not have to worry about making the character crappy in-lane. This also means that the item can't be brought to the lane. Plus we're not even accounting for situations where you supposed meta of "picking the safest laner" is viable, as you could have champions who shove the lane and go roaming. Overall, I think you're too hung up on what you assume the meta would become rather than all possible scenarios.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

When i say healthy clear/speedy clear, i mean fast enough where other junglers who would finish around the same time doing a similar clear or a clear that would create the same exp/level range. All champions can do invade. But there champions who (before the jg patch) could do double 3 so fast that depending on the enemy jg could invade before the person hit 3 doing a similar clear.

In the shift your asking for. I imagine junglers in general would be able to do the same. With no jg being slow enough that the other person could invade with double buffs and have a level advantage.

Giving up one or maybe 2 camps means nothing since you can just go into their jg and take theirs if they try to steal your jg.

Lunar Lunacy1 votes

I just want to point out it's not just lane champions, a lot of champions that were actually designed for the jungle can't jungle well at all. It seems like unfortunately only a handful of junglers are viable on any given patch, not including one tricks or mains playing them because sometimes jungling certain champs just take a lot of skill to pull off. Some junglers are just way too easy to play comparatively which pushes all other champs out

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

The inverse is true as well. Sometimes a champ is designed as a laner but thrives in the jungle. Not that it's bad to fill a different niche but as I wanted to recommend, everyone should have the "option" of jungling, even if you're not the tippy top tier.

Lunar Lunacy1 votes

Well, my point I think was to say that although I'm not opposed to the idea of trying to make all champs "able" to jungle, perhaps we should focus on making actual junglers able to do their jobs first. I think there are like 40 junglers in the game, give or take. But, based on some stats I'm looking at, out of 190 jungle picks in the NA LCS so far in 2018, 3 champions alone (Sejuani, Zac, and Skarner) make up 115 of those pics. How many patches went through during that time? Where is the versatility?

Granted, that's just NA LCS. In Korea those champs seem to have incredibly low winrates in ranked. But I'm not speculating on the reasons for that right now.

But I think I made my point, feel free to let me know if you think I'm wrong.

Mid and top seem to be plagued with similar issues in the LCS. Just the top 3 strongest champions choking all others out. I hate to see it. Kind of makes it get boring to watch after a while when it's the same champions every game. (Which might sound funny coming from me because I'm a one trick myself, but oh well).

I think we need more champions to actually do their intended jobs before we start giving them an alternate position.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I like it. I suspect, like a lot of things that we'd like to have, that the dev cost would be too high or would be perceived to be too high.

Other than that, the biggest problem is the burden of knowledge it puts on everyone in the game. 130 unique enchantments, implemented all of a sudden, is quite a large change for the game, and every player is going to have to understand what those do if they have any effect on champ-to-champ interactions. That's arguably bigger than Runes Reforged.

Then there's the more detailed concern of laners buying the item and breaking it cough Ezreal cough

But I think you've got a good thought here. I wonder if it wouldn't work better to just let Smite have a passive ability, so there's no item for laners to abuse (and if they do, it costs them their combat summoner)?

Sasogwa1 votes

TIME TO Veigar JUNGLE

SirLapse1 votes

It's more that the camps themselves are at an extremity in the game's history. It used to be ridiculously easy to clear the jungle. Now it's an actual chore and farming is actually not possible in an extended way like it used to be (so if your champion was weak early you'd have an actual chance to scale). The primary issue from this is that weak laning phase being the only gate to the champion made jungle transitions suddenly create OP picks. If you nerf the champion's power spike then they're practically forced to jungle because they'll never have a strong point in the game.

There was another thread posted over AP junglers, and I do think AP junglers need an AP starting item to bring around and boost their dps but only for magic damage. This is mostly for higher CD AP junglers to get the most benefit off of it, the rest like Amumu need to be looked at individually. Something like a stronger Talisman but limited on overall sustain.

Marksman junglers need something as well for better access to crit and attack speed but more importantly better first clears (with regard to damage done when combined with kiting, something melees don't have to do as much), since AD caster junglers like Graves don't really struggle in the current slowed down meta (and he's basically the only one of his kind).

It's not that every champ should jungle. It's that you should have the ability to pick something just for fun. If the playerbase or Riot wants it to be actually viable, then they should only do that after the water has settled.

WalkingInACircle1 votes

And what buff would this item give to Lee Sin?

Also, should I take smite and take it to lane?

IDEMO NA MUDA1 votes

Old rageblade ( before he got popular in the first place back then in season 5 i think ) on AD twisted fate Damn I played that shit on ranked and ended up 8/0 i was so proud of it and i still am

TempName548461 votes

but swain jungle is actually broken though?

flibitydoo1 votes

iirc yorick was played as a jungler by dyrus a while ago. He said it wasn't so bad unless the ghouls decided to join the minion waves whenever you cross mid.

Actually terrible jungler would be like galio.

Did you know that his Q is hardcapped at 150 damage to jungle camps? doesn't sound so bad, just build ap, rank it up right? nope. at all given times his Q is capped at 150. it just is. You cannot clear jack all with galio. Your W does nothing to improve your clear. your E is knocking enemies up but you have to stun yourself to do so.

Oh and his ganks are awful because of how slow he is. Shen does everything galio jungle will ever do but better.

You'd have to change a lot and I mean a lot about galio and how he works to make him jungle worthy.

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

This would solve a problem sure, but i think the first drawback you mention shows how impossible it is. I'd rather see riot try to add some new base jungle item (Red/blue) or a new enchantment that could benefit certain champs.

I just wanna play leo jungle again.

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

Hi there. My name is Cap. I like fucking terrible junglers. playing junglers that are fucking awful. (You all had to be stopped)

Let me begin by saying I'm not talking about your B-D tier junglers or the stuff boards usually complains about (Jungle Udyr won a game says a lot about the TERRIBLE GAMESTATE am I right?). I'm talking about legitimately bad junglers. Jungle Urgot. Jungle Swain. Jungle Yorick. I really, really enjoy these odd ball picks. Part of it is because I'm quite bad at CSing and laning. But you know what I've found in my time playing these junglers?

Many are only held back by the smallest of things.

Now, obviously, if these changes went through to make champions viable in the jungle it'd break their laning. It has always been the case for Riot and League...but what if it didn't? A long time ago I proposed a change/addition to the jungle build items. Shave off 150g from talisman/machete and make the new item a 300g jungle item. It doesn't provide great stats but, instead, augments something about your champion to let them jungle better. Every champion in the game could have a jungle buff that could truly open the jungle up to anyone and allow for a separate tweak Riot can use to balance junglers. Most of all, it'd help accomplish Riot's goal of adding diversity and unique picks. Now you can balance every champ for laning while the new item is more about balancing around the jungle.

That said, there are drawbacks:

  • A lot of balance to make it happen (130+ champs need a unique enchant)
  • A lot of champs probably just can't jungle. (Lookin' at you Soraka)
  • Pretty volatile early implementation (Expect broken picks for a handful of patches)
  • Might mess with champs who are already junglers.

All this said, I'd like to hear opinions. So many champs in my time playing honestly awful junglers have made me realize there are aspects about them that can make for great junglers. They just need a small push (albeit that small push can break them). Lemme know what you think, why it'd be a good (or bad) idea and some terrible junglers you've found that really just need one small buff to skyrocket them from trash tier to "Pickable in the LCS".

I'd personally love to see more viable junglers, but riot don't tend to allow champions to excel in roles they were not designed for. Sadly this means a pretty small pot that are ever viable at any one time

wildfox991 votes

after the jungle changes Ahri jungle is fun and kinda works (in normal as off meta pick ofc) accettable clear and you don't even need your 6 for ganking,just slow them with blue smite and enjoy the free E,then the passive + smite + item 3113 item (usually item 3100) MS is pretty strong

well,i tried it on PBE a while ago and i don't know if they changed something since then,but the synergy with blue smite and item 1402 is really strong and if she could use it as laner she'd be really broken

Many are only held back by the smallest of things.

that's so true...

######also do you remember old swain jungle? he was so OP....

Jungle Lux God1 votes

DID SOMEONE SAY TERRIBLE JUNGLERS???

Master Lycan1 votes

I was all Ready to get up in arms at Jungler Witch Hunting, but after reading I want to play my jungle Ryze Again...

The Bad Touch1 votes

Junglers are the people that play Jungle champs. Not the champs.

Zoink Gang1 votes

https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Th%C3%ABY%C3%B8u%C3%B1gSw%C3%B8rd

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