can you please require the "fighter" class to actually build a damage item or two to do damage.

MunchCrunchLunch·Jan 9, 2017·14 votes·1,270 views

ok I get that "fighter" isn't a "tank" even if they build no damage item. but its unreasonable for them to have so much damage. its really unreasonable for them to have sustained dps. can you fix your game so they actually build something like a black cleaver or a titanic hydra not just pure hp tank. remove the damn hp scaling from their kits. every single one of them. its ridiculous. especially when some of them actually have as much cc as an actual tank. this isn't a complaint about a single champion but am sick and tired of rushing sunfire cape and bursting people because they have an ability or two with a ridiculous damage scaling.

why am I playing zed. I will just get deadmans on volibear. QER 2-3 autos and W equal a dead squishy. wut?

33 Comments

Gator RaidJan 9, 201712 votes

If Volibear or DrMundo are somehow able to get in melee range of the ADC, then you done fucked up somewhere.

MunchCrunchLunchJan 9, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gator Raid,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qtAemZAQ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-01-09T01:23:13.146+0000)

If or are somehow able to get in melee range of the ADC, then you done fucked up somewhere.

volibear W does way more damage than mundo E. also mundo main source of damage is a blockable skillshot. i never complained about mundo.

5000000000000000Jan 9, 20171 votes

That isn't really the point though. The point is that you shouldn't let Juggernauts (a subset of fighters) get close to you. They are pretty immobile.

MunchCrunchLunchJan 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That isn't really the point though. The point is that you shouldn't let Juggernauts (a subset of fighters) get close to you. They are pretty immobile.

i never seen a darius without black cleaver do any sort of damage.

Hayaishi2Jan 9, 20178 votes

The fact that this thread has upvotes just shows how many dumb people posts in these boards.

MarshbouyJan 9, 20177 votes

You seem to be confusing juggernaut, tank, and diver.

RalanrJan 9, 20174 votes

But they do build one damage item. It's called Triforce.

Zac isn't a tank and idk what Volibear is building but it's probably health since his bite scales with it.

MunchCrunchLunchJan 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

But they do build one damage item. It's called Triforce.

Zac isn't a tank and idk what Volibear is building but it's probably health since his bite scales with it.

ok his bite scales with hp but is that a healthy mechanic? I mean last game a volibear same items as me. same level. he QE autoed me 3 fucking times and W me and I died. his ulti did 900 damage with a few autos. like why the fuck should I play an assassin when a full tank volibear just killed me in 3 seconds?.

RalanrJan 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

ok his bite scales with hp but is that a healthy mechanic? I mean last game a volibear same items as me. same level. he QE autoed me 3 fucking times and W me and I died. his ulti did 900 damage with a few autos. like why the fuck should I play an assassin when a full tank volibear just killed me in 3 seconds?.

Personally? No but I absolutely hate Volibear just as I hate DrMundo because they pretty much get more damage out of building health.

Plus you should never 1v1 Volibear as an assassin. Assassins are suppose to suck in prolonged 1v1's and Volibear excels at 1v1s.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 9, 20173 votes

an assassin should never be able to kill champs like voli, mundo, mao ,malph and so on...

adcs or sustain damage and dps is what kills them

assassins should kill the adcs, squishys or the ap mid carry

RalanrJan 9, 20171 votes

Yes. Exactly.

AnidanJan 9, 20171 votes

His bite scales with hp.... In this case, yes it's healthy. He's incentivized to build durable so he can function as a soft-engage or peel for an ally in the middle of a fight and last long enough for his regen to matter. His ult and W give him the only notable damage he has, and since he's not quite a tank that's pretty normal since his Q is beans for damage and mostly there for utility, as is his E. This leaves him 2 abilities to do damage with as a Fighter, which is traditionally an archetype that's meant to, y'know, do damage; but, with his passive and W giving incentive for durability, he can't afford to go an AA damage route (especially since he's melee with no real escape) so this gives him two options: he can do incredibly lackluster damage by making his W scale off something he can't really afford to buy and make his kit feel disjointed, or they can let it actually do something by scaling off a stat he does want, and there's precedent elsewhere in his kit to buy health, ergo he buys health. Add on some built-up attack speed for his ult to function anywhere near well and there you go.

I don't even like Volibear and I can justify him. The freaking bear tilts me, but I still understand his design - it's not even close to broken or unhealthy.

Genocide VictimJan 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

ok his bite scales with hp but is that a healthy mechanic? I mean last game a volibear same items as me. same level. he QE autoed me 3 fucking times and W me and I died. his ulti did 900 damage with a few autos. like why the fuck should I play an assassin when a full tank volibear just killed me in 3 seconds?.

That's the thing. Tanks like Volibear do ridiculous damage early and and fall off a cliff late game. Tanks are too broken early and become shitty late.

MunchCrunchLunchJan 9, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Genocide Victim,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qtAemZAQ,comment-id=000000000002,timestamp=2017-01-09T03:35:37.820+0000)

That's the thing. Tanks like Volibear do ridiculous damage early and and fall off a cliff late game. Tanks are too broken early and become shitty late.

bro we were level 17 same items same gold and he nuked me in 4 seconds. by himself. QER cpl autos and a 2. lol. 2300 dmaage. like wtf. zed in disguise?

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 9, 20173 votes

what is a healthy mechanic in this game?

AnidanJan 9, 20171 votes

If we go by the boards...

Nothing. Absolutely nothing is healthy in this game. Burst isn't healthy; strong sustained damage isn't healthy; mobility isn't healthy; CC isn't healthy; heals aren't healthy; shields aren't healthy...

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 9, 20171 votes

exactly

people need to stop bitching and crying

there is balance in the game by imbalance

meaning there are pros and cons for everything you pick build play decision on the map

AnidanJan 9, 20171 votes

I remember a long time back seeing someone on ye olde forums say that the concept of counters themselves weren't even healthy, or something to that effect. It blew my mind that someone can play a MOBA, any MOBA, and think that.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 9, 20172 votes

oh wait i cant have a valid opinion or facts cuz im not sooo and sooo rank

and im bad cuz i dont play rank

lol

AnidanJan 9, 20171 votes

I don't even play League anymore, but I still know a lot about how balance in a MOBA works as a whole structure. Guess the entirety of my opinions and experiences are invalidated now, bois.

Playing HOTS, Smite, League, and DotA2 can give you a lot of perspective on how balance in a MOBA works so long as you know the current landscape (I do keep up with the balance changes of League since my friends play, I myself don't happen to, though).

ErockandrollJan 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I remember a long time back seeing someone on ye olde forums say that the concept of counters themselves weren't even healthy, or something to that effect. It blew my mind that someone can play a MOBA, any MOBA, and think that.

I think Riots claim was, if champion X counter's champion y, the win rate between champ x and champ y would be about 60:40. Where champ X has the advantage, but not all hope is lost, and that such a counter pick could have a work around.

What Riot doesn't do, is support hard counters. That one champion shouldn't completely shut down another.

AnidanJan 9, 20171 votes

I never said anything about hard counters, just counters in general. Including soft counters.

That said: they sure took their sweet time making sure Pantheon was no longer a hard counter to GP, huh?

LankPantsJan 9, 20171 votes

How was Pantheon ever a hard counter to GP? GP's always been able to break his stun, which fucks with Panth's combo. He can also ult on Panth's roams which hits one of Panth's major strengths. I can see how the shield would be annoying for GP to deal with before he got his barrels, but it's still not a hard counter, GP could easily create a farm lane which was at least somewhat in his favour.

If you want an actual example of a long standing hard counter look at Lee Sin into Akali. Lee had a way to counter almost all of Akali's abilities, his kick fucked with her Q and R and his E made her W worthless. Akali VS Lee Sin top was pretty much renowned as one of the hardest counter lanes ever back when Lee saw some play top/mid. This counter stood in the game from Season 1, when Lee Sin was introduced and still stands at current. It might get better next patch when Riot change Lee's E to not reveal for the first time ever. But it took almost 7 seasons for Akali to get an option in lanes VS Lee Sin.

AnidanJan 9, 20171 votes

GP was hard countered because of the shield. If Pantheon decided to establish dominance GP couldn't do anything about it. Yeah, GP can eat oranges and be K, but he then has two realistic options: he can max W and have absolutely no kill potential against Pantheon, and still fairly little during a gank, or he could try to max Q which means he could try to fight Pantheon upfront, but if he went the Q route then he can't harass Pantheon because it'll just meet a shield every time due to the fairly low downtime of the shield if Panth is being aggressive. If GP went the Raise Morale route then he was doomed to failure because he won't farm as well as if he had maxed Q, and he won't sustain as well as if he had maxed W. And this isn't even getting into the mana issues GP will have with repeated consumption of oranges at this level.

Pantheon also wasn't a fan of GP starting up a farm lane because Pantheon would just chuck spears and make even that strategy a living Hell for GP. Pantheon owned the lane against GP, and GP couldn't do much about it unless he received ganks. Worth noting that Pantheon does something similar nowadays to Teemo, but not as extreme as what he did to GP.

And you're right about Akali and Lee Sin. Clearly that aren't that opposed to hard counters if those are able to stand for that long while being as well-known as they were.

LankPantsJan 9, 20171 votes

Pantheon also wasn't a fan of GP starting up a farm lane because Pantheon would just chuck spears and make even that strategy a living Hell for GP. Pantheon owned the lane against GP, and GP couldn't do much about it unless he received ganks. Worth noting that Pantheon does something similar nowadays to Teemo, but not as extreme as what he did to GP.

Cloth 5 with TP over an aggressive spell was always an option. GP could farm lane against Pantheon fairly well, you just had to adapt and actually be willing to play a passive lane.

And you're right about Akali and Lee Sin. Clearly that aren't that opposed to hard counters if those are able to stand for that long while being as well-known as they were.

They just don't give a fuck about Akali. They'd prefer if she's bad.

This is one of the problems I have with Riot, they pick and chose which cancer champs they're OK with. Yasuo/Lee Sin/Lucian are fine and are allowed to be meta most of the time and get buffed the second they're not but Akali/Urgot aren't and they'd get gutted if they ever become meta. All of these champs are as poor examples of design as each other and should be treated the same.

AnidanJan 9, 20171 votes

Well, you got me there. On both points. I personally prefer the "balance everyone equally" route, including the cancer - but Riot clearly isn't with me on that one. If you put it in the game, it has to be balanced like anything else in the game. Riot has historically had problems with this line of thought, though... Though I can't blame them too much when the community also decides that anything even remotely close to being too strong is cancer that should be gutted (source: boards, old forums). So I guess there's a precedent, but I'm personally not sure who set the precedent.

LankPantsJan 9, 20171 votes

So I guess there's a precedent, but I'm personally not sure who set the precedent.

Eve in mid season 1. A champ who was made so bad that picking her was actually a reportable offence when I started playing the game. This is where the idea of utterly gutting a problematic champ truly stems from, other problematic champs had been nerfed harshly before, but none to the point where you literally couldn't play them.

AnidanJan 9, 20171 votes

No, I was just referring to the fact that it's hard to tell who set that precedent: Riot or the Forums back then, because the Forums called for some heavy nerfs to Evelynn. Minute-long invis with a stun coming out (on potentially two targets) was pretty painful back then, and people called for guttings. So it's hard to say whether Riot set the precedent or if the community did and Riot merely acquiesced, following suit and giving the forum-goers the feeling that they should be able to demand someone receive guttings for being out of line. It worked once before, why not try again, after all?

sees the list of other champions who were effectively gutted over time History likes to repeat itself when lessons go unlearned, unfortunately.

Sorry, that was probably my poor wording before.

LankPantsJan 9, 20171 votes

remember a long time back seeing someone on ye olde forums say that the concept of counters themselves weren't even healthy, or something to that effect.

There's an effect to which an argument can be made for a more nuanced version of this statement, hard counters are not healthy.

When one champ being in the game makes it almost impossible to play as another and have a reasonable shot at winning there's a problem with that design.

One of the most recent examples of this is Camille, she hard counters squishy champs without knockbacks. When Camille is in the game she almost limits the champion pool to champs who are tanky enough to survive when confined to one area, Tanks, Bruisers ect, champs with invulnerabilities like Fizz, Vlad and Elise and champs with strong knockbacks like Trist, Lee and Syndra. You really can't play champs like Ashe, Lux or Draven into her because she's basically guaranteed a 1 for 1 at worst with you, even if you and your team play incredibly well. This sort of counter in the game is very unhealthy.

AnidanJan 9, 20171 votes

Can't she be knocked out by an ally with a knockback? Sound simple enough to allow it to keep it in the game. Instead of removing options, why not give more so we can enable this kind of stuff? League could use something similar to Force Staff anyway to forcibly remove her from the zone as a counter, or Ghost Scepter to make your ally unable to be hit by auto-attacks.

Allowing nobody to have a sizable enough impact on the game to change the dynamic of that match while still making matches interesting is incredibly hard to do over the long term because it's very restrictive in what you can design over time to keep that kind of philosophy. We need more options, not restricting them because it might restrict what we can do.

Unfortunately, that's a problem I take great umbrage with in League since the champions aren't available to everyone from the get-go, meaning if hard counters could exist then they could invalidate your champion pool. Seems like a very poor choice for a competitive game...

LankPantsJan 9, 20171 votes

Can't she be knocked out by an ally with a knockback?

She can but since her ult knocks all allies to its edges on activation and grants her immunity during its animation she can normally position in a place where most knockbacks won't actually hit her out of her ult radius.

TBH I think Camille's ult would be OK if it just shut off on her death. It seems questionable to me that it doesn't already.

League could use something similar to Force Staff anyway to forcibly remove her from the zone as a counter, or Ghost Scepter to make your ally unable to be hit by auto-attacks.

I disagree. I'm not a fan of hard counter items. I think champs should do what they're meant to do at a baseline and items should emphasise this. For example a tank should be tanky at a base line and the items they buy should further make them tankier. There shouldn't be an item which has some random effect which is worthless most of the time but utterly gamebreaking and must have in specific scenarios.

Allowing nobody to have a sizable enough impact on the game to change the dynamic of that match while still making matches interesting is incredibly hard to do over the long term because it's very restrictive in what you can design over time to keep that kind of philosophy.

What needs to happen is to allow champions to have an extreme impact in specific areas and be very weak in others. For example ADCs should be allowed to be weak as a class in the early game. Riot over the last few seasons has pushed ADCs to the point where they're a class that has no real weakpoint within the game. We're at a point where for the first time in two seasons ADCs are actually paying for their late game power, this is a good thing.

Unfortunately, that's a problem I take great umbrage with in League since the champions aren't available to everyone from the get-go, meaning if hard counters could exist then they could invalidate your champion pool.

Regardless of whether you own every champion or not most people aren't going to play every champion. Even if League gave me every champ from the getgo I'd probably play 5-6 in ranked. I don't really wan't to play the majority of champs. There are a lot of people who think the same as me and that's why hard counters aren't a good thing. This is one of the reasons I don't like DotA, the idea that I could put hundreds of hours into one hero then get beat by someone who has 5 games on a character because their character hard counters mine sits very badly with me.

AnidanJan 9, 20171 votes

I disagree. I'm not a fan of hard counter items. I think champs should do what they're meant to do at a baseline and items should emphasise this. For example a tank should be tanky at a base line and the items they buy should further make them tankier.

Doesn't that just run into the problem of making items boring stat sticks that over-value %increases to the stats that they give? Though, I suppose, to be fair, everything comes with its own balance problems and caveats, doesn't it? If items are all stat-sticks then the meta will just be whoever uses those stat-sticks the best at that moment, and if they have more interesting effects then the primary items that are picked up will be the items that have the strongest or most versatile effects while the rest just kind of sit there.

What needs to happen is to allow champions to have an extreme impact in specific areas and be very weak in others. For example ADCs should be allowed to be weak as a class in the early game. Riot over the last few seasons has pushed ADCs to the point where they're a class that has no real weakpoint within the game. We're at a point where for the first time in two seasons ADCs are actually paying for their late game power, this is a good thing.

The problem is that League is a game of mad snowball potential. Not quite as bad as my preferred MOBA at times, but if a champion has a legitimately crappy early game in League then that actually tends to make them next to useless, regardless of what their late-game is like (see: Old Poppy) because they'll rarely get to see that late-game when the game can be closed out, decided and/or controlled by 20 minutes in, which not only restricts any sort of item timings for late-game champions but also heavily restricts their farm in this particular game because it doesn't have as many avenues from which to draw income as, say, DotA. And that's before we consider League's static itemization problem for carries which doesn't let them adjust to the status of the game because they simply don't have the option: in DotA2, a late-game carry can build more gold efficient items earlier in the game to try to get something out of their earlier phases, but in League the late-game carry items are inexplicably also the most efficient for them, which means that if you're snowballing you grab them; if you're not behind you still have to grab them which keeps you perpetually behind the enemy since he's always ahead in items - the same items.

Regardless of whether you own every champion or not most people aren't going to play every champion. Even if League gave me every champ from the getgo I'd probably play 5-6 in ranked. I don't really wan't to play the majority of champs. There are a lot of people who think the same as me and that's why hard counters aren't a good thing. This is one of the reasons I don't like DotA, the idea that I could put hundreds of hours into one hero then get beat by someone who has 5 games on a character because their character hard counters mine sits very badly with me.

I suppose this is more of a matter of perspective. I prefer the idea that if they're picking up an incredibly strong late-game character I can pick an early-game counter and do everything in my power to prevent them from getting to that late-game for both my benefit and the benefit of my team. If I see a Riki and know he'll be a problem for our line-up I can opt into Bristleback and immediately give Riki and hard time. I view it as a good thing because it makes the matches more dynamic. You can't have a comfort pick that you play every single game (unless you're !Attacker or Keemerah, but, shhh, sweet prince) and FotM is much less overwhelming when you know they have a good counter. "Oh, Queen of Pain is really strong right now. I can pick Disruptor and prevent her from easily escaping after a kill, or failed attempt at a kill, and put her in even worse position by recalling her back after her blink." "Morpling is incredibly strong right now. I can pick someone like, say, Skywrath Mage or Silencer and considerably reduce his effectiveness for our team." That's a comfortable thing for me to know that some FotM pick can't just steamroll our team just because they're a little strong right now since good counters exist to keep them in check even when they're comparatively crazy.

LankPantsJan 9, 20171 votes

Doesn't that just run into the problem of making items boring stat sticks that over-value %increases to the stats that they give?

It does if it's poorly implemented.

I don't have a problem with items having actives and passives, they should just be weaker and secondary to the stats that they give. I have issues with items like QSS and Zhonya's because of this, I think that they fall too far into the grounds of hard countering picks with items, which is not something I'm a fan of. I don't mind actives and passives though, Randuin's for example has a fair active, it's strong but not insane and a passive that adds to the overall direction of what the item is meant to do.

The problem is that League is a game of mad snowball potential

Yes it is. The solution is to add anti-snowball mechanics to the game and cripple some of the worst offenders cough Lee Sin cough.

And that's before we consider League's static itemization problem for carries which doesn't let them adjust to the status of the game because they simply don't have the option

League has reactive stats. You can reactivity buy armour and MR. Almost every champion can work out a way to utilise a cloth armour or a null magic mantle.

The problem is that Riot caters to the idea of a 6 offensive item carry. This never used to be a thing. You used to see carries build items like Merc Treads, GA and even Randuin's. Going 6 offensive items on a carry used to be the stupidest thing you could do. There was a point where a carry had enough damage and just needed bulk to ensure that they couldn't be burst.

When this was the case it wasn't that painful to drop 700ish gold into a Chain Vest, you were eventually going to need a GA anyway, if it lets you stay in lane why wouldn't you?

but in League the late-game carry items are inexplicably also the most efficient for them

This is actually untrue right now, people just haven't caught on yet. Component items are currently the most efficient for their cost. The best snowballing ADC build is BF>Zeal>BF>Pickaxe. Still this doesn't really fix issues, because if you're behind the other guy will probably go for this build as well if it ever becomes popularised.

That's a comfortable thing for me to know that some FotM pick can't just steamroll our team just because they're a little strong right now since good counters exist to keep them in check even when they're comparatively crazy.

I'm not afraid of FotM in League, I'm more worried when my team picks it. Most FotM players have no idea what they're doing and are utter nonissues. What worries me is when I see a champ like Singed, because I know there's a good chance that whoever's playing him knows exactly what he's doing.