Old Irelia was supposedly problematic because she was a "stat check"

Frontline Fury·Mar 26, 2018·2 votes·1,055 views

How is modern Camille any different? There's very little mechanical to her kit - no true skill shot, extremely low cooldowns, TWO auto attack resets, massive attack speed steroid and an in-built max HP shield with virtually no downtime.

What happened to learning from your mistakes? What happened to Irelia getting reworked because stat checks are supposedly problematic for game health?

Because at the moment Camille is simply brute-forcing her way through top lane, regardless of matchup. Sion was nerfed for this very reason, yet nothing is happening to Camille - why is that?

9 Comments

Malicious MetalMar 26, 20183 votes

Well, Camille just flat out has THE best fighter kit out there, she's a jack of all trades and got everything you'd want in a top laner.

I still think she's just poorly designed and lacks a proper niche.

NemeBroMar 26, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qoK5hltW,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-03-26T08:34:54.271+0000)

Well, Camille just flat out has THE best fighter kit out there, she's a jack of all trades and got everything you'd want in a top laner.

I still think she's just poorly designed and lacks a proper niche.

She's kit-wise a weak early game but very strong late game diver. This alone differentiates her niche from other fighters pretty significantly, who are largely an early game class. Looking at juggernauts and divers, only Nasus and Wukong really differentiate from that as well. She also has the niche at being the best diver at picking off and isolating out of position carries.

Camille is very different from the other bruisers I've played tbh. I think her kit is fine.

AnomanderMar 26, 20181 votes

She was meant to be weak early. However with the advent of arcane comet giving her solid poke in lane she is no long as weak as she should be early to justify the HUGE power spike of sheen and tiamat.(neither needing to be upgraded for the spike)

NemeBroMar 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

She was meant to be weak early. However with the advent of arcane comet giving her solid poke in lane she is no long as weak as she should be early to justify the HUGE power spike of sheen and tiamat.(neither needing to be upgraded for the spike)

Sure.

Chembaron YamadaMar 26, 20182 votes

Tbh, her numbers when it comes to winrate seem fine right now, I don't think she is overturned at the moment.

But even if that would be the case, your argument that she is a stat check like Irelia is wrong. Irelia is stat check to the core, all she does is closing the gap by clicking on you, then using all her spells and sit on top of you until you are dead. That is stat check, her skills can not fail, so either she has more stats than you and kills you, or she doesn't.

Camilles gap closer is not point and click, it is a skillshot and telegraphed as that because of the first part of her hookshot. Her W just deals any damage and heals if she hits you with the outter part of it, it is a skill that actually requires her to have some gap between her and her target.

OurLestradeMar 26, 20181 votes

The Q revolves around being able to proc it at a very specific time, her damage can be completely crippled by basic CC. That's the idea at least, doesn't always work as intended. Her mega gap closer and ult are both stupid though.

vgamedudeMar 26, 20181 votes

Camille is actually skillful. The real stat checks are right click champs like ADCs.

NemeBroMar 26, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frontline Fury,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qoK5hltW,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-03-26T08:24:25.517+0000)

How is modern Camille any different? There's very little mechanical to her kit - no true skill shot, extremely low cooldowns, TWO auto attack resets, massive attack speed steroid and an in-built max HP shield with virtually no downtime.

What happened to learning from your mistakes? What happened to Irelia getting reworked because stat checks are supposedly problematic for game health?

Because at the moment Camille is simply brute-forcing her way through top lane, regardless of matchup. Sion was nerfed for this very reason, yet nothing is happening to Camille - why is that?

Passive has a cooldown and relies on her auto attacking you so can be played around (as opposed to Irelia's old free stat passive). Vast bulk of Q's damage is gated behind a 1.5 second wait time and thus can be played around. W is not only a skill shot, but most of the damage is tied to hitting with the tip, and she only gets a heal from said tip, so it can be played around. E requires her to dash to a wall first so you can CC her when she does to stop the dash, though once she uses the second proc of her E it is true that Camille can only really miss it, it's very hard to dodge without significant mobility while being nearly the max range away, barring troll-pole type abilities. Ult is negated if she leaves the circle, so she's weak to knockbacks, but this is a pretty low counterplay ability... in a 1v1. If your team has no answer to the zone once it is down then you're being outcomped tbh. Probably the most powerful aspect of the ability is honestly the brief moment of untargetability that she has while using it.

Don't get me wrong, Camille is objectively way too strong right now, but she has been in a fairly balanced state before, and can be again. And she is certainly not a stat-check champion the way old Irelia was. Camille can mechanically misplay and miss. Irelia largely couldn't.

Frontline FuryMar 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Passive has a cooldown and relies on her auto attacking you so can be played around (as opposed to Irelia's old free stat passive). Vast bulk of Q's damage is gated behind a 1.5 second wait time and thus can be played around. W is not only a skill shot, but most of the damage is tied to hitting with the tip, and she only gets a heal from said tip, so it can be played around. E requires her to dash to a wall first so you can CC her when she does to stop the dash, though once she uses the second proc of her E it is true that Camille can only really miss it, it's very hard to dodge without significant mobility while being nearly the max range away, barring troll-pole type abilities. Ult is negated if she leaves the circle, so she's weak to knockbacks, but this is a pretty low counterplay ability... in a 1v1. If your team has no answer to the zone once it is down then you're being outcomped tbh. Probably the most powerful aspect of the ability is honestly the brief moment of untargetability that she has while using it.

Don't get me wrong, Camille is objectively way too strong right now, but she has been in a fairly balanced state before, and can be again. And she is certainly not a stat-check champion the way old Irelia was. Camille can mechanically misplay and miss. Irelia largely couldn't.

Camille's W is a skillshot with such a long and wide range even ranged champions and artillery mages struggle against her. Not to mention the Q is so monstrously overloaded that the wait time doesnt matter - you still get bonus damage and movement speed if you dont wait, and considering her Q grants movement speed on both casts, she has a long range slow and a leblanc-tier dash with a stun on top, there's no "playing around" those.

Even champions like Jax and Shen struggle against her due to the extremely low downtime on her Q. They can negate one or two hits, and then it takes roughly three seconds for the next one - often the time it takes for her stun/slow combo to recede from her target.

Newer champions (and reworks) has had this becoming a trend for a few years now. Primary counterplay is "outnumber them". Not mechanical, not necessarily stat-based either - simply outnumber them to be able to outplay their overloaded kit.