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More thoughts on Aatrox after more games

Failog··8 votes·560 views

He is much more easily countered than before. The champions that countered him before counter him even harder now.

A lot of you try to argue that stacks are easy to build up and you can keep 4 ready before you dive or start a fight.

But you aren't discussing the whole picture--you will not always be the one to decide when the fight starts. An assassin in lane, or in the jungle will take you out before you can get Blood Rush. A champion that zones you can make sure your stacks fall off by keeping you from farming. A sudden team fight in the jungle will not give you time to get stacks, especially if any of your abilities are on cool down. He is much weaker at more times overall because of this.

You can argue for any champion a way to make their kit work. But these vacuum arguments do not represent the real game that is dynamic with many variables. Sure you can say there is a way to keep you stacks when the enemy is hugging their turret and you want to tower dive with your revive ready, but its overall a lot harder now._ Just because in the best case scenario its possibly doesn't mean anything when it comes to the aggregate._

Many of you say that if it was easy to keep Blood Rush (such as by being in combat with minions) it would be too strong. Well, old Aatrox could keep his Blood Well full like that, receiving a higher AS bonus, and his revive was always read. But that was okay? Why is it now OP for him to be able to keep his passive longer and/or have a non-contigent revive? What, because of that bonus base AD. Ditch it and let me keep Blood Rush by being in combat with minions an monsters...

...ah but see, if Riot ever decides to give him the ability to sustain Blood Rush, now he's basically just old Aatrox. This is why they will cling to their "window of power" nonsense, because its the **only thing **really that makes this Aatrox fundamentally different. (A window of power that involves no magic damage, no true damage, no free armor pen or crits and no %health damage. Yeah, some power. One Randuins or Frozen heart is enough to give him a hard time).

**If you took old Aatrox and kept his passive the same and then got rid of health costs but lowered healing and damage and reduced CD on dive, it would still be old Aatrox with tweaked numbers. So they can only tweak numbers now and not change his passive because that would be the same as saying they were totally wrong. **

Even if his win rate has gone up after the hotfix, it doesn't mean anything yet because

A) many players have no experience playing against him at top (which would most players), they will mess up for a few games against him at least, misjudging situations and trades.

B) many players see him as shit champion, so they won't feel the need to counter pick him

So give it some more time. You will see his win rate drop if he is seen more often, as players will not keep making the same mistakes and counter pick (and counter build) him more often.

Riot should admit that they put someone in charge of this who A) had no experience playing Aatrox and B) Ignored all input from players over the last 2 years). At the very least, for some of us, it will restore confidence in their integrity and honestly. But to cling to bad changes stubbornly only shows immaturity and egoism.

22 Comments

SirLapse2 votes

This new Aatrox definitely needs help in the early game over how he maintains trade power. His passive doesn't dictate it at all surprisingly so it makes for some pretty confusing Q dives that end terribly. He still deceptively relies on E poke and the window with which he used to burst enemies is now nearer to 20% HP rather than the original 50%, so Ignite is not really worth taking unless you've played him to complete confidence.

But his late game? Absurd. You build intelligently to stack health and resistances + Titanic and not only are you hard to kill, but if they ignore you then you massacre all of them. His passive is extremely easy to maintain in teamfights and if you build tanky then you have more than enough time to get the passive rolling. I won a game against a fed Cho'Gath + Hecarim by facetanking a turret like a suicide bomber and they couldn't kill me past my two revives. They also just barely could 1v2 me. Every time it'd look like I'd die, I'd make it out because I made it past a few items. And I lost lane and the jungler was fed. Insane.

Really need to balance this Aatrox out to get higher low's and lower high's. It was pretty intoxicating to reach his late game when back then it was horrendous, but it's not balanced sadly so I am willing to give it up if his early game improves. The changes feel pretty good in how they affect Aatrox's playstyle, but the numbers just aren't in the right spot yet for him to be considered viable outside of long duration games. His risk early is too high while in the late game there practically is no risk.

Failog2 votes

"But his late game? Absurd. You build intelligently to stack health and resistances + Titanic and not only are you hard to kill, but if they ignore you then you massacre all of them.

The game is very snowballing right now. Late game doesn't happen to often. Old Aatrox built as an off tank late game, based on my thousands of my matches, was totally unstoppable. I am confident I won 90 percent of every game that went past 50 minutes. So I don't see how saying his late game now is better is a plus.

SirLapse1 votes

{quoted}

"But his late game? Absurd. You build intelligently to stack health and resistances + Titanic and not only are you hard to kill, but if they ignore you then you massacre all of them.

The game is very snowballing right now. Late game doesn't happen to often. Old Aatrox built as an off tank late game, based on my thousands of my matches, was totally unstoppable. I am confident I won 90 percent of every game that went past 50 minutes. So I don't see how saying his late game now is better is a plus.

Look at your match history and look at mine. It's not strange for lower elo games to stretch past the 25 minute mark, or even the 30 minute mark.

The significance here is that this is not 50 minutes where arguably any death for either side leads to a free baron and/or game. This is literally after you start completing components and slowly achieve the tankiness. Old Aatrox punished you for building HP, therefore decreasing your sustain terribly if you decide to use your Q and E freely.

Not only do I spam my abilities WHEN I ACTUALLY NEED THEM, I don't get punished and therefore live a crapton longer despite not having the broken triple heal. I didn't struggle at all once I got the items, and statistically Aatrox got dumpstered if he didn't absolutely smash the early game in his older form (don't know where you got the idea that he does better late game unless it has to do with your elo). This is practically the opposite and I enjoy it greatly.

His early like I said is a noobtrap centered entirely around his passive and practically baits you to go in when you really shouldn't. You're still relying on E poke to do all the work for you and since W damage was nerfed, you need your passive to do all-in trades where you expect summoner's to be blown or want to take advantage of an opponent's misplay. That's like a handful of situations compared to the "I've always had it" mentality Aatrox players have had.

He's extremely easy to punish early simply because other characters have better numbers early. But once you get the tank items rolling, you will outscale most champions that are not building themselves to specifically fight you. While that's really nice, to actually get there it's a painful trip in the first 6 levels of the game (specifically). It honestly gets to broken levels once you're heading toward full build because it doesn't seem to matter if you were behind. If they're not focusing everything on you specifically, you have a high chance of not dying. Add revive onto that in chaotic teamfights and you'll have Blood Well up before and after death. Add Guardian Angel and it's even worse for them.

I will remind you again. I lost lane. Went 0/2 and the Cho'Gath had a level lead on me. I finished a Spectre's Cowl and just having that item allowed me to outplay him under my own turret, baiting his Flash and ultimate right as I achieved revive and making my Rengar get free shut down gold. The game got considerably worse for the entire enemy team from there whenever my influence was involved, making Teleport amazingly good. Old Aatrox was Ignite to absolutely win lane. He was not this team-oriented, and I feel like a true god of war when I can dive 3 people under tower, force ults and still make it out of everything.

Failog2 votes

"Old Aatrox punished you for building HP, therefore decreasing your sustain terribly if you decide to use your Q and E freely."

Thats not even entirely true. You could fill your Blood Well reallllllly fast when you dive and E because of how much damage you do to yourself.

Anways, the rest of you rambling is purely based on your personal experiences of games that went well. Please keep playing him in ranked, let me know how you do against Reneketon, Fiora, Olaf, Nasus. You aren't going to climb with him, and you are welcome to come apologize to me when you realize how exactly correct my post is.

Also, don't make arguments based on my match history. I don't even use this account to play seriously.

SirLapse1 votes

{quoted}

Also, don't make arguments based on my match history. I don't even use this account to play seriously.

I can when it has to do with match time because it holds true across multiple divisions. Or maybe we can't use deduction skills in 2017 to formulate educated opinions? I've not mentioned your nonexistent Aatrox gameplay on that account because it's irrelevant to the point I'm making.

Thats not even entirely true. You could fill your Blood Well reallllllly fast when you dive and E because of how much damage you do to yourself.

You're dropping your HP by 10% per Q and 5% per E. On this current Aatrox I've literally spammed it out without hesitation and my HP building was not effectively being decreased in value for me responding as things happened. So yes, in that way for sure the old Aatrox punished you. The more you casted your stuff, the more risk you placed onto yourself which usually is counteracted by a snowballed lead, otherwise you get smashed for it.

Failog1 votes

Okay well you obviously think new Aatrox is fine, like I said, good luck with that. You are still welcome to come here and apologize to me after you realize he worse than ever. You have refuted none of my original arguments with your ramblings.

SirLapse1 votes

{quoted}

Okay well you obviously think new Aatrox is fine, like I said, good luck with that. You are still welcome to come here and apologize to me after you realize he worse than ever. You have refuted none of my original arguments with your ramblings.

I didn't need to refute anything. You missed the entire point of what I was saying because you want to stay high on your pedestal. Your opinion has value as an Aatrox player but honestly what you're saying is not everything there is to this new Aatrox.

His numbers are not peachy right now but in terms of how his kit interacts, he's much more obvious as to what Riot should be fixing instead of perpetuating the feast or famine playstyle that old Aatrox had. He's actually at a 44.85% winrate in Silver elo, which correlates to how he scales well as the game goes on.

Does he need to be viable on every pick? No, not at all. But he's actually seeing good consistency vs. tanks and not doing so well vs. fighters that have an actual early game and scale on top of that. Noting this interaction says that his sustained DPS is good but he just has nothing up front for harder trades, similar to how Fizz was for mid lane prior to the mage update. And now Fizz doesn't really have that issue at all. It's why your post has value, but at the end of the day you're chastising Riot over making any change at all instead of working to improve this one using your gathered information.

If the entire goal of the update was to allow Aatrox more synergy with items that allow you to dive in (which his playstyle encourages you to do), then Riot did in fact succeed. Riot limiting his free stat interaction via Blood Well gates his entire early game along with the damage nerf, which was also a goal to stop Aatrox from having his overbearing success while also being allowed to scale. Getting it closer to a healthy amount number-wise is actually possible without forcibly changing the passive back to its "free stat" existence, that is undeniable whether you enjoy the fact or not.

I'm not going to be apologizing if I actively still feel like he is worth bringing. He's still bad to bring when you see Vayne ADC on the enemy composition, he's still bad if you knowingly as a top laner first pick him, etc. He's literally playing out like how any other top laner (outside of the highest tiers) would and the only thing that lost value on him was one-tricking him (which was already questionable and made possible because Jungle Aatrox existed). This rework is meant to allow him to fill a better niche for his theme as a champion, not completely fix his problems (which they will do at a later date).

Failog1 votes

"If the entire goal of the update was to allow Aatrox more synergy with items that allow you to dive in (which his playstyle encourages you to do), then Riot did in fact succeed."

How does it synergize? Doe he do get a shield based on HP like Nautlius? Does he do more damage with armor like Malphite? Does he do more damage with health like Volibear? WHAT ABOUT HIS KIT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH TANKIER ITEMS? By the time I have enough health for my heals at low health to be near the old Aatrox, I am too low at health to heal up fast enough again because my build is now lacking attack speed, unless you spent a lot of gold on Trinity Force or Rageblade with its awful build path. And if you lose you Blood Rush in a fight WHICH DOES HAPPEN, you will have no bonus attack speed, despite being dependent on it for his kit to work. He doesn't spam abilities. And as I have said before, he doesn't have another way to mitigate incoming damage DURING A FIGHT, the way Jax, Pantheon, Riven and Fiora do, nor does he have free resistances.

Build him tanky, shitty tank.

Build him off tank, weaker version of old Aatroxx off-tank

I'm sorry but you are wrong. The idea of a window of power is a stupid one because of all the other things Aatrox lacks. Can Riot make this kit work as it is, possibly. But was it the right direction? No. Any besides, if they are planning a full rework anyways, why these changes? To make him buffable? Soooo, we aren't really going to get a change as far as his kit matching his theme more? Just seems like there was no reason for any of this until a full rework.

They would have easily just left him as he was, reduced the CD on his dive and that would have probably been enough to move his win rate up.

SirLapse1 votes

{quoted}

"If the entire goal of the update was to allow Aatrox more synergy with items that allow you to dive in (which his playstyle encourages you to do), then Riot did in fact succeed."

How does it synergize? Doe he do get a shield based on HP like Nautlius? Does he do more damage with armor like Malphite? Does he do more damage with health like Volibear? WHAT ABOUT HIS KIT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH TANKIER ITEMS? By the time I have enough health for my heals at low health to be near the old Aatrox, I am too low at health to heal up fast enough again because my build is now lacking attack speed, unless you spent a lot of gold on Trinity Force or Rageblade with its awful build path. And if you lose you Blood Rush in a fight WHICH DOES HAPPEN, you will have no bonus attack speed, despite being dependent on it for his kit to work. He doesn't spam abilities. And as I have said before, he doesn't have another way to mitigate incoming damage DURING A FIGHT, the way Jax, Pantheon, Riven and Fiora do, nor does he have free resistances.

Build him tanky, shitty tank.

Build him off tank, weaker version of old Aatroxx off-tank

You're ignoring the fact that if you have effective HP, the opponent WILL NOT be able to easily get through it until they start building penetration. You do not require lifesteal items in order to increase your effective HP and therefore survive for a decent amount of time. Your ultimate is a steroid to assist with attack speed and Blood Well by mid-game is capable of giving just the right amount you'll need for teamfights. This is all past the early game which is where Aatrox is having such a horrendous imbalance, and therefore you're not likely to see it come out of lane with a good amount of strength unless Aatrox is vs. a tank, who always are an easy time to lane against compared to fighters.

Build him bruiser with Titanic, he does a lot of damage and is harder to kill than the average champion. Literally no AD outside of Titanic along with no attack speed and you will be tanking WAY better than old Aatrox since you won't be shanking yourself via skill costs. The base heal is double the old one and you get 90% attack speed at lv11 when you're at max power, giving you 1.4 attack speed. Aatrox literally gives up nothing when doing his tankier builds and if allowed to AA at all since it extends his tankiness.

Can other champions copy this? Sure. Olaf immediately comes to mind. While that isn't anything absolutely unique in league, it's something as a placeholder in the meantime for his rework because it's actually functioning as a fighter. Not melee ADC.

I'm sorry but you are wrong. The idea of a window of power is a stupid one because of all the other things Aatrox lacks.

Other champions have it, and it clearly defines how weak/strong the champion is based on when and where they can use it. Meaning, it's easier to balance by far compared to the older kit that relied heavily on overbearing numbers that had 100% uptime.

Can Riot make this kit work as it is, possibly.

If his kit works with this in a healthier way than his old one, then mission accomplished. You have a champion who isn't all about winning in 0-25 minutes or becomes a liability on your team. I don't see why you would say this and then follow with:

But was it the right direction? No.

They had a clear goal with Aatrox to not make him so feast or famine. Windows of power do just that, because the champion when it doesn't have 100% uptime can have peaks of strength in certain situations instead of every situation allowed. It was certainly the right direction, it's just not the direction people were imagining when they were theorycrafting buffs for YEARS that all majorly avoided the question of "how do we make this fighter play more like an actual fighter instead of an all-or-nothing melee." Not a single one of those posts were about "give him synergy with BC and other fighter items."

The old Aatrox didn't have any clear line for when he was weak or strong. He either got fed and defeated the enemy before they could build items to actually fight him, or he needed his team to carry him because the enemy could actually fight him. That has nothing to do with item synergy, that has everything to do with snowballing. If the only weakness to it is "he can be hard CC'd" when the playstyle all about healing off everyone's damage, then making him more adept at handling the kiting issue will just break him. I'm pretty sure that's why they avoided touching his Q even if it's garbage, because it is still a gap closer. His ultimate was also the only in-kit indicator for Aatrox's highs and lows, since Q/E became non-factors as Aatrox's DPS increased.

New Aatrox in comparison gets unchanging strength for the tankiness he builds. He will be at a specific power level after building x, which then changes after building y. If that is clearly defined, then balancing it is only a matter of changing numbers and guiding people to certain builds. The problem is early game Aatrox without involving any of those power spikes, but buff/nerfs can be given accordingly for what matchups he is struggling in. I'd rather take a more balanceable Aatrox than one Riot will never touch for a number of years, at least then I can actually see him played and use him myself.

Anyway you have your opinion. We'll see what happens in the coming weeks. I'm not here to convince you, only to convey my personal thoughts on the matter and observe where you're coming from. It's obviously much more difficult to see when you're not being open about your match history and progress with Aatrox, seeing what builds are what, etc. I've nothing to gauge your actual experiences on Aatrox.

Failog1 votes

"Not a single one of those posts were about "give him synergy with BC and other fighter items."

Then you weren't following the posts. The ideas presented by the players on the boards were endlessly varied.

Gauge me? I keep most of my accounts in Gold because I only play Aatrox. I keep around a 60% win rate, including playing him against hard counters. I don't do well when I have to play another lane which keeps me from climbing higher. I just havent found another champion in another lane that I love (loved) as much as Aatrox.

So I am telling you from a stupid amount of games played with Aatrox, experiencing pretty much every possible situation and scenario, that new Aatrox feels much weaker. And again, Aatrox DID have a window of power. It was when he came to a fight without his passive, which was on a long cool down.

"They had a clear goal with Aatrox to not make him so feast or famine"

I have a hard time with this line or reasoning. There are so many champions who are easy to shit on when they are behind and impossible to beat when they are ahead. Why does this argument only appear in regards to Aatrox and not to all the other champions that snowball very hard, and are super easy to kill if they are behind even just 1 kill in lane?

SirLapse1 votes

{quoted}

"Not a single one of those posts were about "give him synergy with BC and other fighter items."

Then you weren't following the posts. The ideas presented by the players on the boards were endlessly varied.

None of the ones I've seen that really gained any attention paid attention to item synergy. Even I made an actual post a good while back that asked for a buff before actual rework and a definite concern I kept finding from people's posts was about Aatrox's HP costs. Received a red post pretty much confirming that they would be doing SOMETHING before the full rework.

The item synergy allows him to be a better teamfighter as it historically has been seen with things like even Teemo that weren't necessarily designed to be tanky. Shaco too.

I've recently gathered more information and it seems very much like you have to stay within exp range of minions while you get zoned off and attempt to poke from afar as the enemy pushes you in. We've seen this with Jayce vs. Riven and many other ranged top lane matchups, but you also have to do this with Darius and fighters cause your damage is definitely lower. I certainly was not playing in that fashion and didn't have to vs. the tanks I was against. Aatrox is melee after all and he doesn't always fight ranged champs. But Blood Well's DPS math still assures that you win early if you see the opponent blow a CD after you're lv3. Most Aatrox's I've seen lose before they hit lv3 or are chunked significantly by lv3.

I have a hard time with this line or reasoning. There are so many champions who are easy to shit on when they are behind and impossible to beat when they are ahead. Why does this argument only appear in regards to Aatrox and not to all the other champions that snowball very hard, and are super easy to kill if they are behind even just 1 kill in lane?

Because Aatrox is a special case that could never see buff/nerfs and MANY times could only obtain success at 0-25 min. It's like the champion itself was a walking cheese strategy, never meant to succeed under normal conditions. There are some other niche champions that can pull off cheese strats like Nocturne top lane, but those aren't main roles. If your champion has to cheese in order to win, in your main role no less, then that's a gigantic balancing concern that will not change with mere number adjustments. We've seen this with Rengar over and over and surprisingly because Riot wanted to keep his identity via same skills and interactions, the problem was never fixed and likely won't be anytime soon. They didn't do that with Aatrox.

Failog1 votes

"cheese strategy"

Funny, that phrase pops into my head all the time:

Garen rushes in, silences you then spins away. Cheese.

Fight isnt going well, Sion ults and runs away. Cheese.

With boots, ghost and trinity force I can not catch a Riven hell bent on running away with her stupid amount of spamming mobility. Cheese.

The game is full of cheese. I never thought Aatrox was cheese because what he did was walk a fine line during his fights, and being all in even with revive often meant that if you misjudged, you die and probably some of your teammates too.

In the past when I would have to play against malphite at top there were 2 outcomes. He builds some HP/AP items and things such as item 3742 item 3068 and I stomp him into the earth. And this happened like 95% of the time with Malphite. The other 5% he buildsitem 3110 item 3143 and I get destroyed. I just don't understand why Aatrox needs a window of power suddenly when

A)Without his passive he was easy to kill, and thus had a long window of opportunity for the enemy when his revive was on cool down

B)Shutting down a champion whos defense (heals) and damage comes from auto attacks was super easy with champion abilities, stuns, blinds and items that slow attack speed. Why does he suddenly need a window so his opponents can more easily know when to do damage or when to CC or kite?

Ill tell you what: I am happy to have Aatrox have a window of power on the condition that it really is power. That is to say, if it is now easier to kill Aatrox when he doesn't have Blood Rush it should be easier for Aatrox to kill when he does have it. I am not impressed with bonus AD and Attack speed, especially since he still needs attack speed, but gets less of it now, and now needs to build tankier. He also needs something like bonus movement speed, like every hit with Blood Price during Blood Rush grants x% movement speed for 2 seconds or some shit. OR every hit with Blood Price during Blood Rush reduces the cool down of his abilities by 1 second. I like that one.

SirLapse1 votes

{quoted}

"cheese strategy"

Funny, that phrase pops into my head all the time:

Garen rushes in, silences you then spins away. Cheese.

Fight isnt going well, Sion ults and runs away. Cheese.

With boots, ghost and trinity force I can not catch a Riven hell bent on running away with her stupid amount of spamming mobility. Cheese.

The game is full of cheese. I never thought Aatrox was cheese because what he did was walk a fine line during his fights, and being all in even with revive often meant that if you misjudged, you die and probably some of your teammates too.

If a Garen rushes at you, he does not have a gap closer (save for Flash which you will also have the chance to have) to guarantee his auto-attack nor has CC in his kit to slow you down and therefore ensure the hit. It has a loud sound and Garen gains bonus movement speed, which allows him to juke some skills but for the most part he is not actively removing counter-play from the equation. You know when he is looking to strike you and he does not have any tools to make it easier within his kit.

If Sion has to burn one of his most important abilities that he could've used for engaging in order to escape, that's using utility and it has a cost to it. It is not cheese.

Nothing is obligating you to chase the Riven, just like nothing obligates people to chase Singed. Therefore, it is not cheese.

Cheese implies that there is low counter-play involved to a strategy and effectively is determined based on what tools you have, what the opponent has, and when this all happens.

Let's say I'm lv3 Aatrox against lv3 Darius. What does Darius have that can destroy me? His passive and landing his spells. An Aatrox has a high chance of dying to a Darius in a direct 1v1 if Darius is the one to initiate it. However, as Aatrox is a champion that can stick to farming via E, he does not have to engage Darius at all and can poke him down to a level where combat success can be seen. If Aatrox lands his E, he not only increases the chance majorly for landing his Q, but also is more likely to force the Darius to back away if the Darius is aware of a fight that he can't win. Combine with high base damages and combat stats, and Darius is going to die within a small timeframe that almost always will force a defensive summoner spell to prevent the death. Not including that with the triple heal, Aatrox could 1v1 Darius at lv1 in certain cases.

Aatrox pre-rework never notified the opponent of this opportunity, which was usually when he reached max Blood Well and possessed his entire attack speed bonus. The window of time in which he killed the opponent was actually dependent on if the opponent stayed to fight him, and by the time the opponent realized that they couldn't win, they couldn't avoid losing a summoner or their life. This is the primary example of cheese. The opponent can literally do nothing about what you are doing if they are not aware of what you are going to do. If they are aware however, they will avoid scenarios in which you will succeed and therefore deny you.

Now add that onto the fact that Aatrox didn't synergize well with HP items before and you have a squishy melee ADC diving at people. This historically has always been bad and only succeeds at lower elos, unless the champion you are using has some sort of survivability built-in (i.e. Tryndamere, Riven, Rengar, and even Olaf counts). Aatrox doesn't have that. His burst combo which was extremely potent for his early success falls off and he relies heavily on AA's which has counter-play simply by your approach. It's one thing to counter a single champion's CC that you expect, it's another thing if the enemy team groups and has more CC/damage on-hand. What we end with is a terrible teamfight champion that can only succeed in the early game because of cheese, and cannot succeed without this cheese. Noted statistically by Aatrox's low pick rate and the fact that he is only seen in Solo Queue-esque situations. His team always has to cover for him outside of that and it doesn't end well usually if the game stretches.

If Riot is to make any buffs, it is now safe for them to do because his Blood Well notifies exactly when your power is strong and opponents can notice this. If you played the early game EXTREMELY safe to lv3 and have high HP, you can switch to Blood Price at around 3-4 stacks and go in on the opponent. You will beat things like Darius and tanks easily. I really do think Aatrox needs more time to flesh out his new-ish playstyle before he gets any more significant buffs, because he does succeed if you play him in a certain way. Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O72wa3QF4OY

Failog1 votes

Okay nice chat. But no matter what I write, I know you will have to argue it. I could type that water is wet and you will find a way to argue. This is a waste of my time. You will never concede a point. You are 100% right. We are all dumb, all of Aatrox mains with thousands of ranked matches with him. YOU are the one who knows it all. We bow down to you.

SirLapse1 votes

{quoted}

Okay nice chat. But no matter what I write, I know you will have to argue it. I could type that water is wet and you will find a way to argue. This is a waste of my time. You will never concede a point. You are 100% right. We are all dumb, all of Aatrox mains with thousands of ranked matches with him. YOU are the one who knows it all. We bow down to you.

I like to see where people are coming from and clearing any misconceptions. Cheese was a term invented in SC about strategies your opponent would blatantly be able to stop if they know it's coming but would succeed many times because it was not expected. You were using the term wrong so I corrected you.

I value your opinion as a player but I'm not going to just go off and agree with you 100% when I have no reason to. There are things standing for this Aatrox that matter just as much as the old Aatrox. Have to take in both and see what direction is better overall for the game while improving the unsatisfactory interactions like ones you are mentioning and that players universally are seeing.

The only thing I've blatantly declared is that we need to wait and see before declaring that he needs any huge changes. I remember W max was immediately what people did on trying new Aatrox and it didn't work out because on the old one it didn't work either. If you think everyone playing Aatrox knows exactly what to do and is failing in said situations despite that knowledge, then go ahead and argue against me. I'm pretty doubtful that's the case right now as he's rather fresh out of the rework.

KillzInHD1 votes

It's nice that you are an amazing player and can make this new Aatrox work for you but it doesn't change that he is globally maybe the worst champion in the game. Numbers don't lie man. He got much worse after the rework on every, single number possible and it gets worse the higher up you go in elo. This is a fact and not open for debate not an insult to your skill.

SirLapse1 votes

{quoted}

It's nice that you are an amazing player and can make this new Aatrox work for you but it doesn't change that he is globally maybe the worst champion in the game. Numbers don't lie man. He got much worse after the rework on every, single number possible and it gets worse the higher up you go in elo. This is a fact and not open for debate not an insult to your skill.

Hotfix increased his numbers, and many of the current numbers we're seeing were created fresh after the patch. Need to wait a while. The guy I got the build from has a 79% winrate in dia 2 (on recent games) so I'm pretty sure the build has something going for it that allows for consistent success.

Failog1 votes

Like I said before, not enough time as passed. I could give 2 shits if he is Diamond 2. Aatrox is super easy to counter and shut down, and over time you will see it doesn't pan out.

KillzInHD2 votes

For anyone playing Aatrox and feeling very underwhelmed the numbers support you completely. He's not just bad after his changes he is arguably the worst champion in the game right now. His numbers in Silver + (Leagueofgraphs.com):

Win Rate - 45.1%, K / D / A - 6.2 / 7.0 / 6.4

Those numbers get worse the higher you go up the elo ladder and his K / D / A got worse in all aspects while his winrate has dropped 1.5% since patch 7.5. Keep in mind that this is after he was already considered a bad champion for years....

I have been critical of some of the things Rito has done in regards to some of the things they have done in 7.5 specifically but I don't want people assuming I don't think they are doing phenomenal overall. The reworks on Warwick and Galio are so damn good it's hard to believe IMO so that blows the bad out the window but the bad still needs to be talked about.

Failog2 votes

Yup. But Riot doesn't listen. I think they figured that any suggestion over the years by Aatrox mains were just biased complaints that wanted them to make Aatrox too strong.

KillzInHD1 votes

This. I honestly find it hard to fathom the same people who thought up the reworks of Warwick and Galio also thought up the Aatrox mini rework. Unless it was some kind of an inside joke with them.

Lauchmelder1 votes

Both Azir and Ryze have a lower winrate at around 41% winrate, as well as Nidalee with a 42% winrate.

Aatrox is by far not the worst champion in the game if you define it by winrate.

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