I have never seen the boards complain about the same things so consisently

Failog·Jul 28, 2018·132 votes·21,004 views

Ive checked the boards daily since season 4. I have never seen such consistent complaints about the same things.

The damage. The mobility. The game length. Turrets. The runes. The Items.

Are you listening Riot? Do you understand that when the free market eventually produces a better product from a better company, all the influential serious gamers who stream and post on youtube that drive popularity of the game will be playing a different game. What do you think will happen to your players base?

And who do you think are active on these boards more? The casual player, or the ones who stream and youtube about league?

156 Comments

Crimson ZeppelinJul 28, 201834 votes

From my experience, they been doing it since I started this game. Nothing is new.

ModWulf HelhammerJul 28, 201817 votes

Same. Out of that list, the only thing I can't remember people complaining about for the past 4 years or so are runes, which used to be so basic no one had anything to say about them.

xJLx MCHammerJul 28, 201811 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R6X8MUuE,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-07-28T17:09:00.858+0000)

Same. Out of that list, the only thing I can't remember people complaining about for the past 4 years or so are runes, which used to be so basic no one had anything to say about them.

No one? really? Many people complained because it felt like a pay wall where you had to grind to get the same adavantage that other did. T1 and T2 runes were also noob traps .

ModWulf HelhammerJul 28, 20187 votes

Different kind of complaint. Talking about how much they cost isn’t the same thing as saying they have too much or not enough power. No one was talking about things like “armor seals made champions impossible to kill” or that “MPen Marks gave AP too much damage”.

xJLx MCHammerJul 28, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R6X8MUuE,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2018-07-28T19:51:32.833+0000)

Different kind of complaint. Talking about how much they cost isn’t the same thing as saying they have too much or not enough power. No one was talking about things like “armor seals made champions impossible to kill” or that “MPen Marks gave AP too much damage”.

No, but it was a legitimate complaint where people would flood the forums saying they just died and the opponent who killed them would had died if X account had the runes/seals unlocked

And yes, people did complain about some of the seals/runes. I remember specifically the gold/exp generations ones.

FailogJul 28, 201817 votes

I dont remember anyone complaining about damage being too high or mobility being too high years ago.

ModWulf HelhammerJul 28, 20185 votes

The season we have now is essentially season 4 again. Damage was king, tanks were underused, and assassins reigned in the mid lane, and people were certainly unhappy about it. Cries to nerf Zed, LeBlanc, Talon, all there, and the complaints we have now are near word for word duplicates.

As for mobility: people have been complaining about it since the first champ that got a dash. If you never saw them, then I honestly don't know what to say to you.

LauchmelderJul 28, 201813 votes

What game did you play that had 4 seasons, cause it sure as hell wasn't league.

DNFVixenJul 28, 201811 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shuriman God,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R6X8MUuE,comment-id=00010000000300000000,timestamp=2018-07-28T22:42:22.847+0000)

What game did you play that had 4 seasons, cause it sure as hell wasn't league.

I agree on this, but it is useless to speak to that person all they do and side with riot.

Sp33d Zer0Jul 29, 20182 votes

dafuq are you guys even talking about?

League has had 8 seasons. Why is it hard to imagine there being a season 4?

LauchmelderJul 29, 20187 votes

We're saying that this mod is either blatantly lieing or just has no idea how season 4 actually was.

ModWulf HelhammerJul 29, 20181 votes

So do you care to point out the points that are wrong, or are you just going to go for personal attacks and blanket statements with no evidence?

Baron Von BanginJul 29, 20188 votes

I mean. It's not like you used any evidence either.

ModWulf HelhammerJul 29, 20184 votes

What are you trying to say there?

ZephyrDrakeJul 29, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R6X8MUuE,comment-id=000100000003000000000001,timestamp=2018-07-29T01:01:48.296+0000)

What are you trying to say there?

what he is trying to say is that his nostalgia glasses are on too tight and that there was nothing wrong with the previous seasons and somehow only the last 2~3 ones are the truly bad ones. Oh and that nobody ever complained about nothing at all back in the day

SennaFirstPickJul 29, 20182 votes

the oldest complaint i remeber is one guy that was begging riot to nerf trundle because he could ult baron in teamfights and get like 8k hp

LauchmelderJul 29, 20182 votes

Loosen the top button on your shirt mate, something's lacking oxygen.

I complained about Weedwick as well as I raged at Azir being overpowered. Just because I don't say that season 4 was even close to half as shit as this season doesn't mean my "nostalgia glasses are on too tight".

xJLx MCHammerJul 28, 201815 votes

{quoted}

I dont remember anyone complaining about damage being too high or mobility being too high years ago.

People always complained about it

Back then though, the definition of mobility was much lower. Nid used to be considered a very mobile champion. Now, she is just part of a huge list of champion that are mobile. As far as damage, last year, you had Cait who can crit people for 2k in one hit.

LOL also evolved since a silver player today is much better than a silver player 5 years ago. The average level of lol players have increased.

That's just my opinion. I played since S1

Yung Daemon SandJul 29, 20184 votes

LOL also evolved since a silver player today is much better than a silver player 5 years ago. The average level of lol players have increased.

....nahhhh

Sp33d Zer0Jul 29, 20187 votes

yes.

SennaFirstPickJul 29, 20182 votes

i remeber lee sin's realease, it was incredible how much mobility that guy had, plus i think his r did 600 damage at lvl 1, and could have been used on big mobs too, not sure about lasts 2 though

EasternBladeStarJul 29, 20183 votes

The game's gotten easier. Don't mix it up with average skill level.

TerozuJul 28, 20185 votes

They did. "Mobility creep" has been a thing since season 3.

So has damage creep. And turrets, hell theyve been a thing since season 2 if not season 1 and i can prove it. Game length as well seasin 3. Items too. Remember DFG?

These complaints have been on the boards for years.

Even runes were always "pay to win! Ugh".

Pika FoxJul 29, 20183 votes

People always did. Ive played since s1, and people were definitely complaining about mobility creep for the longest time, as well as everything being either damage creep when there was a new assassin or they were strong, or general wet noodle fiesta when tanks were good.

SpecterVonBarenJul 29, 20182 votes

{quoted}

or mobility being too high years ago.

This is bullshit and you know it.

AhpeJul 28, 201831 votes

boards*

Warlord RhinarkJul 28, 201845 votes

{quoted}

boards*

I mean.

The people on the boards are probably bored, so that makes them the boreds.

Akali is SO HOTJul 28, 201818 votes

Boards has definitely always complained about the same things

charge attackJul 29, 20186 votes

You can probably copy and paste a front page thread and get upvoted to the front page on the same day.

Also I don’t know what the fuck OP was talking about. The anti ADC circlejerk was just as bad just a couple of months ago.

mack9112Jul 28, 20189 votes

I have been on these boards for 5 years and they literally complain about the exact same thing over and over... Nothing changes man

Summonah12369Jul 28, 20183 votes

{quoted}

I have been on these boards for 5 years and they literally complain about the exact same thing over and over... Nothing changes man

What about the drastic changes that happened to the scuttle crab? Huh?

JanakinJul 28, 20188 votes

Are you listening Riot? Do you understand that when the free market eventually produces a better product from a better company, all the influential serious gamers who stream and post on youtube that drive popularity of the game will be playing a different game. What do you think will happen to your players base?

Very well said. I am one of those who's pretty much waiting for a better MOBA to be released (actually programming one too :D)

Nausicäa Jul 29, 20186 votes

Ya they are listening by finally responding after months of complaints only to basically dismiss those complaints with bad excuses.

WoodenCreatureJul 29, 20184 votes

Riot have stated many times that reddit and lolboards showcases the game's minority therefore they aren't taking any feedback from those two instances. so whining on here or reddit is completely pointless riot will just keep on milking the game till it dies completely. top lol streamers already quitted and some other will do it too.

KazaJhodoJul 30, 20183 votes

If you want them to listen, don't watch the lcs and don't play the game.

Do not buy skins. Do not spend your money or time on the game. If the game is actually bad and out of hand, like it seems to be lately- it will collapse on itself or fix itself.

Right now they are fine, so they don't care.

I used to watch the lcs, now I never watch it. I used to play the game, now I've stopped playing it.

Good luck getting your playerbase back after fucking up though.

SaltyToplaneGoatJul 29, 20182 votes

Now imagine how this most look for me, a early S2 player.

And obviously, for any Riot with three braincells, especially those who were there from the start, should ahve relaized it long ago. So there are two possibilities: a.) they are horrendously retarded, or b.) Riot as a whole has absolutely zero issue letting this game die and is currently doing that in a somewhat controlled state. Such as, deflating a balloon slowly instead of going out with a BIG controversial bang.

Why they would do that? Very simple. When you are a game company in the online multiplayer area, all other games are your direct competitors who you need to fight with over players that spend their time with it. Note: ALL games. Not just those of other studios, but EVEN YOUR OWN. Because what use is pushing a new product, but then both playerbases kind of cannibalize each other, one dies uncontrollably (which means LOSSES as they gotta keep running empty server space for a while before they can react) and the other never reaches critical-player-mass to actually take off, and at the end you stand there with two half-dead games.

Also, I think they already have something close to done: because let's be real, in all those years, has Riot ever really released actual GAMEPLAY content of the scope a studio of their size should deliver? Yes we get cosmetic skins, a new character every six weeks (altho half the time it is a rework), and sometimes tiny promotional gamemodes that are nice, but look like something a rather relaxed indie-team has put together in their free time (speaking in terms of scope, not of quality). And all those skins take even less resources for the gameplay, as model and abilities are all set, so that gets outsourced to the art crowd to make some minimal tweaks on already existing concepts. Generally it feels like a lot of manpower is actually NOT going into this game, and I guess all competence has been sucked from the balance team as well, and they didn't even need an order form above to ruin the game, but instead they let just incompetence run wild.

And yeah, it is utter incompetence when the head guy claims "you don't need to play games to actually make them".

In terms of economics, it all makes perfect sense to why you would intentionally let a game go to shit. For the players it sucks big time, obviously.

thefanceJul 29, 20181 votes

This is a Just-So story.

SaltyToplaneGoatJul 29, 20181 votes

Given with the facts we have is a pretty viable story tho. For a game company their current output is abyssimal in terms of quantity, and given the low quantity a very high qualitiy is not tied to such absurd long times. Also it should be noted that even when work is loaded onto the art-guys, that's assets they could even use in another game (aka literally every single bit of concept art from the Foundations team. You do realize how much professional art costs? You don't do that if you dpn't have at least some sort of plan to make it bring in money.)

The alternative is them being incompetent dumbfucks that did literally nothing with their winning from previous years, and now just let the game go down because of utter and complete idiocy. What of those you think is worse I'll let you decide, but I personally go with the explanation that makes sense form an economic standpoint.

thefanceJul 30, 20181 votes

I can think of other possibilities. E.g.: balancing a complex system is difficult with an evolving meta can be difficult; player expectations have changed over time; players want different things; evaporative cooling has produced a small yet vocal minority; recent concepts (like yasuo) have had negative externalities; etc.

Do any of the examples above reflect reality? Beats me. My point is not whether the above examples are correct. My point is that you've prematurely narrowed the set of possible explanations to either "ill-will" or "incompetence" with little justification beyond "it's just simple economics".

SaltyToplaneGoatJul 30, 20181 votes

If they truly wanted to have a go at proper balance, they would have done so by first of all reducing complexity by cutting runes and masteries alltogether and balanced champion base-stats accordingly. The argument of "playstyle customization" does not reall pull these days anymore when you have a 140+ characters with different playstyles to choose from and items still exist. Yet they did not, for the simple reason that keystones are a wonderful way to pack more damage into the game, as offensive keystones are always preferred over defensive ones.

This high damage enviorment results in games degenerating into a casual kill-fest siesta, even above the usual ranked-levels where it is that anyways, such a Bronze. This in turn reduces the startegic aspect of the game and makes it a lot easier for casual players to just jump in and kill stuff. However, as we all know the casual crowd is not what you could call a profitable audience, and they are not exactly loyal either, as they might as well wander off to the next big free thing that captures their interest.

A highly specialized game that suddenly alientes its core audience while going for the casual crowd is weird, especially since League had no need to grow and expand even further when it was at its peak. They already were on top of the Esport world, and now it appears like they are slowly initiating the death of the game so they can reduce the server- and support infrastructures and ressources and re-route that into their new project. At the same time a high fluctuation of casuals also imptoves the chance of hitting the one or the other spending player that leaves 20 bucks for skins or whatever, so that's money they don't want to miss either.

From an economical standpoint their strategy makes perfect sense, secretly scale down, take all the profits you can still get, and then bring out the new project when it is assured that the games will not steal each others audience. Perfect plan for the company, and a shitty plan for the players who get to see their beloved game driven into the mud. For me that is especially nasty tbh. In my field (Media Studies) games are generally treated as art, so actively making a good game worse for econimic reasons is just an abhorrent idea. The levels of "doddle with marker over the Mona Lisa" abhorrent. So I defeintly don't like what they are doing currently and I really wish I was wrong with it, but sadly everything points in a different direction.

thefanceJul 31, 20181 votes

I'll file this next to "Police have an incentive to increase the amount of crime. Because otherwise, they'd be out of a job. From an economic standpoint, it makes perfect sense."

SaltyToplaneGoatJul 31, 20181 votes

Except a policeforce does not work on a for-profit basis and exists regardless of crime levels, and is therefore not giving a shit about economic reasons. Not sure how you handle that in the US, where every aspect of life seems to be geared for profit, as the center-nation of unleashed capitalism would make one suspect, but the difference should be fairly obvious.

Not to mention that Riot is not in any way fulfiling a sort of societal "function". They and the whole game could literally cease to exist tomorrow and not much would change on this world. They are simple actors in an economic system pushing products with the goal of profit - therefore their actions are guided by economic principles.

And there is no law or rule that would prevent them from sabotaging their own product to free resources for their next big thing, or to make sure that the current product is not conflicting with the new one. If it is profitable it will be done, simple as that.

thefanceJul 31, 20181 votes

Likewise, it's fairly obvious to me that the null-hypothesis for the optimal economic strategy is not deliberate self-sabotage, but rather deprecation or senescence. Since you insist your explanation is supported by "economic principles", please point me towards an economic text which elaborates under what conditions a strategy of self-sabotage might be considered optimal. Meanwhile, I'll go delete my steam library, since "economics" dictates that I can only own one game at a time.

SaltyToplaneGoatAug 1, 20181 votes

Oh no, for you as the player, you can own as many as you want - but you can only PLAY one at a time. At the same time, publishers can't have infinite games lieing around, because they must sustain them with server-infrastructure and tech support, as well as maintain them with balancing and patching.

These are undebatable truths, absolute facts if you will. Now from those we get interesting developments when we enter the world of Massive-Multiplayer-Online games. MMOs require a critical mass of players to not only be functional, but also have some "fluidity". In leage terms that means having so many players, people never need to wait too long, no matter on what skill level they queue for a game. On a more extended level this also affects the fan community and their creative output in art and writing, and general meme-shitposting, as all that is free advertisment. That last part is ESPECIALLY relevant in the Free-2-Play segment, which requires a high spikes on players to be profitable.

And it all boils down to profit, because a game that generates no profit cannot be supported, and will cease to exist. Doesn't matter if you have an account or how high your rank is, or how good the game is, if the servers shut down because the studio gets no money, it's game over. And at worst the Studio can't pay it's employees and it disbands.

So obviously when you have a NEW F2P title coming, it requires a massive growth over a short time at release, or it will be a tremendous financial failure for the studio. In the current industry you either shine like a diamond at release, or be forgotten under mountains of new games that also release every year. Comeback-stories from that oblivion are so rare you might as well treat them as absurd anomalies.

Also, taking over already existing infrastructure for the new project lessens the financial burden and the risk connected to it. So by eliminating their biggest competition, which ironically is their own already existing game, as it undoubtitly WAS the biggest thing in the western hemisphere for some years, they hit two birds with one stone: make sure their main taregte audience is not tied to another game, while at the same time saving a lot of money by re-using their infrastructure.

It's a simple consequence of basic facts in now the Gaming Industry works. But hey, you ran out of arguments LONG ago given how you answer by intentionally misunderstanding things - tbh I could tell you the sky is blue and you'd demand literature at this point. Stay in denial a bit longer, at least Riot will be happy to know that enough morons go along with their plans and reward them for it.

thefanceAug 1, 20182 votes

But hey, you ran out of arguments LONG ago given how you answer by intentionally misunderstanding things - tbh I could tell you the sky is blue and you'd demand literature at this point.

The way I see it, you've armchaired your way into an "obvious economic theory" and decided that this is your hill to die on. If it's so "obvious", can't you point me towards something tangible? Suppose I had actually asked you to support the claim that the sky is blue. Rather than delve deeper into the cushions of your armchair, you could for example simply point me to the wikipedia article on Rayleigh Scattering.

By the way. Feel free to meditate on the irony of criticizing someone for "running out of arguments" while simultaneously dodging a request for stronger epistemic support. Also, the police comment was intended to demonstrate how easy it is to invent a Just-So story which has little basis in reality. Not because I genuinely believed the police follow incentives similar to Riot. (Reciprocally, should I file this under intentional misunderstanding?)

Oh no, for you as the player, you can own as many as you want - but you can only PLAY one at a time. At the same time, publishers can't have infinite games lieing around, because they must sustain them with server-infrastructure and tech support, as well as maintain them with balancing and patching.

The idea that Riot must sabotage League in order for their new hypothetical game to cannibalize the newly freed marketshare relies on the assumption that League has a near monopoly on the market. Otherwise, the optimal strategy would be to cannibalize other competitors in the market while coasting on the popularity of League. One might even argue that it's in Riot's interest to keep League's playerbase satisfied so that Riot can leverage their reputation to coax a critical mass of League veterans into their new game. And if a strategy of sabotage were truly optimal, we should expected a precedent set by similar companies.

Do such precedents exist? League is certainly a popular game, but does it actually command above a near-monopoly marketshare? (I doubt it.) At what threshold of marketshare do self-cannibalization effects start to dominate? (15%? 30%? 90%?) How exactly do we define League's market? (Is League's market the MOBA market? the computergame market? the videogame market? the electronic entertainment market?) How large are the effects from reputation? What critical mass of players are needed for a game to take off? (a million total players? a thousand concurrent players?) Yes, network effects are important. But HN tells me that growth is more important than a particular critical mass; maybe the growth rate is a metric more predictive of success than a particular snapshot of player count?

This is what I meant when I asked "under what conditions is such a strategy optimal". Likewise, "under what conditions does Rayleigh Scattering produce a blue sky" is interesting and non-trivial. Believe it or not, the sky isn't actually always blue. Sometimes, the sky is purple or red. Sometimes, the sky is even black. Why? How? Is the sky also blue above the troposphere? Is the sky also blue on Venus? Is the sky blue for the same reason that lakes are blue? "Don't you dare get academic with me. The sky is fucking blue. It's just obviously logical and you're in denial." Rather than denial, I think a more accurate description would be "skeptical of your Just-So story".

franticFurballJul 29, 20181 votes

And who do you think are active on these boards more? The casual player, or the ones who stream and youtube about league?

And who do you think generates 99% of the games revenue...the millions of casual players, or the few thousand youtubers and streamers?

After you answered that question, put yourself in the position of Riots CEO and take a guess which design decisions will make your shareholders at Tencent Ltd. more happy: Those that appeal to the 99% majority, or those that appeal to the 0.001%.

Riot is a business. Don't blame the dog for barking.

FailogJul 30, 20182 votes

The millions of casual players wont be attracted to game that is not RELEVANT. If the streamers and youtubers stop playing, its not as interesting to play the game. Do you not understand this?

Riot is a business. So what? Do you know how many businesses make decisions that seem good and end up sinking the company? Blockbuster Video, Sega....happens alllll the time. They aren't gods, they are just people.

franticFurballJul 30, 20181 votes

wont be attracted to game that is not RELEVANT

A game is not made relevant solely by the streamers, whose influence you seem to overestimate hilariously.

The biggest pull factors to any videogame are:

Cost (F2P games without pay2win mechanic are attractive to customers)
Convenience (games which do not require you to play daily but are playable in short enclosed sessions)
Peer pressure (I play what my friends at school/work play)

And with competitive games

attractiveness and accessibility of ESports Events

Streamers play a role in that, yes, but a minor one, compared to the big ones.

But even ignoring all that, there is one critical flaw in your "argument" that blows it out of the water completely: You have no proof, no numbers, nothing, to back up your claims.

So any discussion about whether or not your point about streamers is correct or not, is moot anyway, because you have no argument.

FailogJul 30, 20181 votes

Also, streaming is becoming more popular, and people want to be relevant. If their favorite streamer drops league and picks up a different MOBA, what do you think is going to happen?

franticFurballJul 30, 20181 votes

If their favorite streamer drops league and picks up a different MOBA, what do you think is going to happen?

They will of course, immediately drop the game they invested a lot of money and time into, which is also played by all their friends. There is no flaw whatsoever in that logic of yours, because people are not actually habit-driven, RoI considering, social creatures, but remote controlled flesh-drones, which are controlled by whatever streamer you idolize, and live to facilitate whatever version of reality most suits your dreams.

Meanwhile, just a few km outside Fantasyland, you still presented...

#no evidence whatsoever

...for your claims that this game is supposedly dying or something. Its getting so embarrassingly easy to shut your posts down, I am starting to use comedic sarcasm to do so.