What's the point of having Spellbinder and Spear of Shojin?

BLIGHTBRINGER·Oct 9, 2019·9 votes·9,801 views

SoS has less than 5 Champions that use it? (Renekton, Jax, recently Nocturne, Riven every now and then and Master Yi potentially).

And then Spellbinder which is completely none existent in most games (appears on Evelynn sometimes and Syndra on rare occasions).

Why do they need to exist? They aren't really useful for majority of the Champions in the Game and basically exist as an extra option to snowball.

I'd rather have them replaced for something else.

49 Comments

JaspersOct 9, 20196 votes

If we go by this theory, why is Manamune still in the game? Pretty sure only 1 champ builds it.

SoS needs removing changing for different reasons than lack of people buying it.

ArtumisPrimeOct 9, 20194 votes

Ezreal, Kai'Sa, Kayle, and Jayce all come to mind as muramana builders. (Not that 4 is much better than 1. Just being thorough.)

SaezioOct 9, 20193 votes

Jayce doesn't build it anymore. Unless he is really really bad. Jayce only buys lethality and/or cleaver these days.

ArtumisPrimeOct 9, 20193 votes

https://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/126

Most recent one, by challenger level players, was 2 days ago.

SaezioOct 9, 20195 votes

So, we gonna ignore the fact the same player played jayce 10 more times without the item?(not to mention you had to scroll through tons of games without the item to get to that game)

He just tried it to see if it's still shit. Or maybe he was in a very specific scenario where he wanted some sort of late game because of teamcomps?

ArtumisPrimeOct 9, 20192 votes

He's not the only one. It has an 11.7% build rate on Jayce. 5th most purchased item.

It's not core, but "Jayce doesn't build it anymore. Unless he is really bad." is factually incorrect, as per the evidence I have provided to you.

SaezioOct 9, 20193 votes

U.GG doesn't even have it as an option.

In lolalytics under popular items, it has a 7% pick rate on jayce and has the lowest winrate of ALL of his items.

Where did you get your stats from?

ArtumisPrimeOct 9, 20193 votes

I literally gave you the link.

U.GG also shows it as an 11% buy rate, 5th highest.

https://u.gg/lol/champions/jayce/pro-build

SaezioOct 9, 20192 votes

In the first 70 games in that list, there is ONE muramana. How does that add up to 11%? I don't think those stats are from pros. Could be just popular jayce items across the spectrum. If it was 11% I should be seeing one muramana roughly every 10 games.And you can confirm that's not the case. Even If As for probuilds item popularity list.... Sure I will trust a list that doesn't have ghostblade for Jayce in it...

P.S. At 120 matches I found 2 muramanas.

ArtumisPrimeOct 9, 20194 votes

On Probuilds it says Muramana, but I think that includes Manamune too. U.GG also shows it as Manamune, so this is entirely possible.

There are at least 4 in the last 50 games on probuilds.net. Not sure how or why U.GG, as I've never used their recent builds section before...but the list of recent games is different than probuilds.

That being said, you missed a bunch. There are at least 10 in the last 120 games (including both Muramana and Manamune) on U.GG, and at least 4 in the last 50 games on probuilds. You might want to look again.

EDIT: It is actually really weird that Ghostblade isn't in the top 6 on probuilds though, considering it's built nearly every game. Not sure why that is. Something fucky's going on. Even so, U.GG says 11% as well, for Manamune.

EDIT 2: It's also not necessarily the case that you'll see one approximately every 10 games. They could be clumped together. Like, one week there might be 5-6 of them, then none for the next 3-4 weeks. There are a lot of reasons this could be the case. Meta champions on the enemy team (that then change one week), one player who likes to build it, etc.

Radiant SeraphOct 9, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Ezreal, Kai'Sa, and Jayce all come to mind as muramana builders. (Not that 3 is much better than 1. Just being thorough.)

Kayle too

ArtumisPrimeOct 10, 20191 votes

Interesting. I've never seen Kayle build one, but looked it up and there it is. I'll add her to my other post. Thanks.

yay nibbersOct 9, 20191 votes

I agree 100%, but Riot have removed items in the past for that exact reason. RIP Zephyr

ThefrostyvikingOct 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

If we go by this theory, why is Manamune still in the game? Pretty sure only 1 champ builds it.

SoS needs removing changing for different reasons than lack of people buying it.

Manamune is used on Ezreal, Kai´sa and Kayle.

Probably like 1 or 2 more that i forgot about........well not really commonly used still.

Magnesium14Oct 9, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Manamune is used on Ezreal, Kai´sa and Kayle.

Probably like 1 or 2 more that i forgot about........well not really commonly used still.

Only on Inting Kayle's Theirs so many better options

Magnesium14Oct 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

If we go by this theory, why is Manamune still in the game? Pretty sure only 1 champ builds it.

SoS needs removing changing for different reasons than lack of people buying it.

2 Champions use it Ez and Kai sa. Now that I think about it it might not be too bad on a GP.

Z3SIeeperOct 10, 20191 votes

Just cuz GP can proc on-hits doesn’t mean on-hit items are good on him.

He really only takes Sheen specifically because it’s a one-and-done proc.

Veloz DestelloOct 9, 20194 votes

Why instead of replsce them... Just add more items?

Frontline FuryOct 9, 20193 votes

Isn't spellbinder practically obligatory on Vladimir and Diana? I see it a lot on Annie as well.

It's basically the stormrazor of the mage world. It might not be core like morellonomicon but i'd say it's definitely used enough to keep around. But it's a very technical item, so it takes a lot of practice to use correctly.

YboatOct 9, 20191 votes

Often 1st item on diana

BLIGHTBRINGEROct 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Often 1st item on diana

But why? Even someone like Cassiopeia would be a better pick for this because of how quick she can charge up the stacks with her E.

ArtumisPrimeOct 9, 20191 votes

Because Diana wants to burst you as quickly as possible, and also benefits from the extra movement speed to get close enough to Q R R.

Cass might be better suited for the item on paper, but in practice she tends to be more of a skirmisher than a fully committing champion. This, coupled with Spellbinder's relatively short duration, make for it to be a suboptimal purchase on Cass.

This is evidenced by Cass not having Spellbinder in her top 6 purchased items, but it is Diana's second most, at 53.8%, in the highest levels of play.

https://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/131

https://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/69

BLIGHTBRINGEROct 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Because Diana wants to burst you as quickly as possible, and also benefits from the extra movement speed to get close enough to Q R R.

Cass might be better suited for the item on paper, but in practice she tends to be more of a skirmisher than a fully committing champion. This, coupled with Spellbinder's relatively short duration, make for it to be a suboptimal purchase on Cass.

This is evidenced by Cass not having Spellbinder in her top 6 purchased items, but it is Diana's second most, at 53.8%, in the highest levels of play.

https://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/131

https://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/69

Fair enough, but you'd think that it would take a while for Diana to charge that thing.

ArtumisPrimeOct 9, 20191 votes

Depends. It's charged by your casts, enemy casts, and ally casts. So, a Diana vs Cass matchup would charge at the same rate for either champion provided they are always in range of each other, of course.

YboatOct 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Fair enough, but you'd think that it would take a while for Diana to charge that thing.

Out side of the extreme late game, when it's off cd, it's charged. Any where past level 6 or so, as Diana you take camps, you roam, you push towers... remember she gets attack speed after a spell cast. So while attacking a tower to get a plate you can easily get 3 casts

Edit, I would also like to point out that both components give you things you want on diana, one gives y oiu raw damage, the other gives you damage and movement speed. Both of which she wants. Also any where after level 6 in lane, a landed q, means you either die or you are blowing a Summoner spell to survive. Flash is wasted if she still has her second r

InfernapeOct 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

But why? Even someone like would be a better pick for this because of how quick she can charge up the stacks with her E.

Because she doesn't need mana thanks to her passive and wants raw AP to oneshot someone. If she could rush Rabadon's I'm pretty sure she would first item.

JuiceOct 9, 20191 votes

Hextech gunblade? Hextech GLP? Ravenous Hydra?

IainG10Oct 9, 20191 votes

I use GLP a lot (but some of that is on AP Supports).....

PhearBunnyOct 9, 20191 votes

rarely on Nocturne. I build it maybe one out of 20 games, just when team fighting isnt an option, and theres a split pusher that needs to be handled(Nocturne can handle split pushers 1v1 with SoS)

JackMcCarryOct 9, 20191 votes

Vladimir also buys spellbinder, good on Veigar with rabadons. Anyway, when underused items are getting removed, people go balistic at Riot for removing niche playstyles, just because an item is niche doesnt mean it should be deleted, it literally has zero impact on you if it's underused, if they are OP or not is a different discussion.

ArtumisPrimeOct 9, 20191 votes

Also Kennen. Kennen builds Spellbinder 16.3% of the time according to probuilds.

Support PositionOct 9, 20191 votes

item 3907 is actually the best mage item in the game. No one uses it cause they're idiots. It's literally sleeper overpowered :/

Flawless FetusOct 9, 20191 votes

How? I stopped buying it when I realized that the active, even at max charges, is still worse than having a hat.

AckelopeOct 9, 20192 votes

not necessarily true, but usually true by the time you have it. spellbinder active at full charges gives 80 ap, the same bonus is provided by deathcap at 200 AP, obviously becoming larger when above that. Spellbinder works as a rush item on some champs, though most mages need the mana+cdr from luden's, so it ends up being awkward. do remember, though, that spellbinder active also has movement speed attached, 50% at full charges, which is a pretty strong boost and provides a stat that mages don't usually get in excess.

Starcraft243verOct 9, 20191 votes

And then Spellbinder which is completely none existent in most games (appears on Evelynn sometimes and Syndra on rare occasions).

I use it on malphite AP, sometimes I buy it on veigar to replace boots when i'm full build.

Fat Scat RatOct 9, 20191 votes

Frozen mallet here: I'm viable on gnar..........yea just gnar :'D, please don't delete me :(

KnyronOct 9, 20191 votes

I thought we all wanted more item diversity?

SoS just needs to be deleted, tbh.

ThefrostyvikingOct 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I thought we all wanted more item diversity?

SoS just needs to be deleted, tbh.

Item diversity=Having different items to choose from.

Current state = Majority of champs have cookie cutter builds with very little variance.

ProfDrDeathOct 10, 20191 votes

And you'll never really go away from the cookie cutter builds for 2 reasons:

A) Most champions are looking for raw power in their first 1-2 items. As such, they build the items that either most efficiently enhance their kits or most efficiently mask their weaknesses (or both). Most builds can branch out by the third big item, but chances are the game is already decided at that point - especially at the level of play most people play, in which gold gain from CS and objectives is maybe 80% of what pros can achieve.

B) People are lazy. Deviating from the cookie cutter build often requires changing up your playstyle to a certain degree - and most people can't be bothered with that. Add to this fact that this change in playstyle only works for experienced users of a champion, the ones that know enough about how their champion works to get out the increased performance. This goes for runes as well.

ThefrostyvikingOct 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

And you'll never really go away from the cookie cutter builds for 2 reasons:

A) Most champions are looking for raw power in their first 1-2 items. As such, they build the items that either most efficiently enhance their kits or most efficiently mask their weaknesses (or both). Most builds can branch out by the third big item, but chances are the game is already decided at that point - especially at the level of play most people play, in which gold gain from CS and objectives is maybe 80% of what pros can achieve. B) People are lazy. Deviating from the cookie cutter build often requires changing up your playstyle to a certain degree - and most people can't be bothered with that. Add to this fact that this change in playstyle only works for experienced users of a champion, the ones that know enough about how their champion works to get out the increased performance. This goes for runes as well.

But why was this not the case in the past? :(

Marksmen for instance once had the options of going BT, Botrk or IE first.

Mages had ......was it athene´s unholy grail, tear and some other item that i cant recall the name off.

Stuff like that was pretty common, the only ones i recall with worse item diversity were supports who didnt have proper itemization or gold income at all.

ProfDrDeathOct 11, 20191 votes

Let's look at Marksmen first:

In the past (pre-4.10, since you're refering to BT as a first item option), item pricing set-ups and item functionalities and statlines were different:

Infinity Edge was 70 AD, 25% crit, +50% critdam. And 3800 gold, one of the most expensive items in the game.
BotRK was 25 AD, 40% AS, 15% Lifesteal, 5% current HP on-hit (did not work with Lifesteal) and the powerful active nuke (10% max HP). Price point was 3200 gold.
The Bloodthirster was 70-100 AD and 12-18% Lifesteal, with the low values being the bases and the high values being the values after 30 CS (resetting on death). That at 3200 gold.

The difference in gold values was what made the difference in the first item option. If you can abuse the 600 gold gap between BT/BotRK and IE (and pros definitely could), you had the variance in first item options.

Fast forward to today's League.

Infinity Edge at 3400 gold, 80AD, 25% crit, +25% critdam. More AD, less price = better first item.
BotRK at 3300 gold, 40AD, 25% AS, 12% Lifesteal, 8% on-hit (working with Lifesteal) and an active whose main function is in creating a MS differential.
BT at 3500 gold, 80 AD, 15% Lifesteal and a shield that's fueled by Lifesteal and has scaling maximum strength values.

BT's changes in 4.10 have disqualified it as a general first item ever since. With its reliance on Lifesteal for the shield to function, you need good physical DPS before you can really make use of the shield (hence Draven being a exception who can still first item it).

Also, Marksmen actually have first item options (IE/BotRK/Essence Reaver) as a class. Not every item gives the same power to each unique marksman, though.

ThefrostyvikingOct 11, 20191 votes

You are correct in your analysis however i´d argue that the changes that resulted in the present state where different marksmen sometimes start with different items is still worse than back in pre 4.10 when it was entirely optional between the big 3 of back then.

Same story really for the mages who had 3 starting items (even if tear was not really used much then either) but now only really have 1 and tear is something only like Anivia and Cassio uses.

As i see it, cookie cutter builds were less preeminent back then, at least in terms of early game setups although people would usually end up using the same items in the end which was still better than now.