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We've seen it with Swain; We've seen it with Kai'Sa

Elohaven··47 votes·13,628 views

Dear Riot,

From the gaming community, we humbly ask for you to release this new champion with the simple memory of the past two mistakes you have made with Kai'Sa and Swain. Despite how many people would love a broken champion upon release or morbid strength, we ask that next time you release a champion you do not buff them immediately or two patches after.

We ask for a minimum of three weeks - almost a month worth of gameplay and data to see where players land. This large sample size with give enough statistical data on where you may want to change said champion and a large enough period for feedback.

With Kai'Sa being unstoppable every game and Swain being a monstrosity for a period of time before your demagation (word similar to deforestation where mages are gutted), I think there's enough evidence to support new champions do not deserve immediate buffs.

Thus, with your new champion, we hope you can wait and monitor its progress. Until then, let the hype live on.

Sincerely,

39 Comments

Tormentula29 votes

Swain was actually weak until his QoL changes to his ult, he needed some number nerfs after but if they ignored his problems he wouldn't ever be good.

Kaisa was shit at release, the only reason she powerspiked and got broken was because riot buffed her entire kit in one patch when the biggest buff she really needed was that attack range. There was no reason to pick her over vayne with her previous numbers until she got that buff, now she's better but the rest of the damage buffs were a little overtuned and need taken down. Guinsoo's getting changed afterwards didn't help either, but she still needed the range.

I know its hard for people to understand this; but the stronger a champ is at release, the easier it is to balance them down the road, since you can find what their strengths are and nerf those or take them out, but when a champion is weak, its harder to pinpoint why its weak or what strength you want to target and buff, as for instance, kai where riot didn't understand what her problems were so they just tuned everything at once. Swain got his buffs, then one QoL fix and suddenly that QoL fix with his ult was enough to make him consistent and he got stripped of power from those buffs.

Ornn is probably the only one I can think of that didn't need buffs since his problem was ally learning curve with buying his items early and throwing leads with them or delaying powerspikes.

Elohaven16 votes

Kai'Sa had a stabilizing winrate upon release and was buffed just a week after while her winrate was still stabilizing.

Swain was shit but it was also because people didn't know how to play him. Nobody wants OP champions everywhere. The whole issue with League is the absurdity of damage and meta champions due to said damage.

My Waifu Vanilla11 votes

No swain was shit because you could literally never hit W and you just didn't have an ultimate in teamfights because if you tried to detonate it it got stuck on EVERYTHING.

XeroKimo2 votes

Swain's W wasn't impossible to hit. Legit to guarantee a hit from his w, you E -> w between you and your opponent -> Pull when snare is about to end, extending the duration of the cc. It's a guarantee hit, unless they had enough tenacity to not care about the snare.

What broke him was that radius buff on his W, on a spell that powerful, not a good idea

Terozu1 votes

Ummm no. She had a stable winrate. Of like 44%. The reason it started to go up were hotfixes. It wanst stabilising towards 50% because people were getting better.

Grunt6661 votes

{quoted}

Swain was actually weak until his QoL changes to his ult, he needed some number nerfs after but if they ignored his problems he wouldn't ever be good.

Kaisa was shit at release, the only reason she powerspiked and got broken was because riot buffed her entire kit in one patch when the biggest buff she really needed was that attack range. There was no reason to pick her over vayne with her previous numbers until she got that buff, now she's better but the rest of the damage buffs were a little overtuned and need taken down. Guinsoo's getting changed afterwards didn't help either, but she still needed the range.

I know its hard for people to understand this; but the stronger a champ is at release, the easier it is to balance them down the road, since you can find what their strengths are and nerf those or take them out, but when a champion is weak, its harder to pinpoint why its weak or what strength you want to target and buff, as for instance, kai where riot didn't understand what her problems were so they just tuned everything at once. Swain got his buffs, then one QoL fix and suddenly that QoL fix with his ult was enough to make him consistent and he got stripped of power from those buffs.

Ornn is probably the only one I can think of that didn't need buffs since his problem was ally learning curve with buying his items early and throwing leads with them or delaying powerspikes.

Uhm kaisa was not bad at release lol, was literally pick/ban in korea pro the instant she was available which was before her buffs. What is shit is players like you who think they can pick up a new champion on week 1 and somehow have a mastery of the best builds and interactions with 130 other champions.

Tormentula1 votes

{quoted} , was literally pick/ban in korea pro the instant she was available

Like literally every champion at release because players want to try it out, and banned because nobody wants to deal with it on their team or the opponent's, either without understanding of playing against it, the misdirected thinking its too broken (whether correct or incorrect), or they don't want to see players try unfamiliar things in a setting where we gain the most statisical data on it.

Also I like the added "like you" implying I gave a shit about kai on release, I liked winning games. After the buff I definitely enjoyed her more and seeing nerfs thrown at her I'm fine with because they already gave her exactly what was required to make a successful marksmen with a similar playstyle to another one, the range to CS and kite.

Slice n Dice em1 votes

I know its hard for people to understand this; but the stronger a champ is at release, the easier it is to balance them down the road, since you can find what their strengths are and nerf those or take them out,

So according to you, Zoe should have been easier and faster to nerf no? Yet it took how much time exactly?

Tormentula1 votes

Not that incredibly long 7.23 nerfs to 8.5 isn't that huge (compare that to camille 6.24 - 7.24 to get her where she is, half of them gutting her, half of that bringing her back and she's a solid champ now. Compare that to VGU release yorick, urgot, and we've still be unable to make them stables or contested picks since we started off weak and never figured out what parts are healthy to buff.). The big joke was when they tickled something like .5 second Q CD which wasted a patch cycle.

Her champ design is what's her issue. She's not a "numbers OP champ" she's just certainlyt'd. Her clear strength was one shot burst and when you know thats what needs targeted, there's pretty much nothing left which is why they had to be careful approaching her. Even when she's low tier she doesn't feel very fun to play against, and when she's high tier she's obviously not fun to play against.

There wasn't any numbers to take out without deleting the champ, there wasn't any gameplay to gut out without removing an entire ability, overall not a very good design ignitially.

Melledoneus7 votes

To be fair, buffing a champion is the easiest way to increase their play rate. That increases the statistics and thus they can gauge their power better.

I don't really agree with it, or disagree, it's just a known fact.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

Solution: Take the Yorik approach?

Release a champion incredibly weak. Then buff them up to par?

Snowman Arc2 votes

How do you know if a champ is really weak, when there's not enough data to support it? Even now, Yorick is still weak after buffs, and yet no one plays him.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

I was poking fun.

Release Yorik was one of the weakest champs in LoL's history.

Snowman Arc2 votes

Can't tell sarcasm on these boards anymore, with the amount of stupidity going around.

MuffledGarbage1 votes

HEY

That ain't true, I'm still playin my Boi Yorick Yorick Mori Yorick

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

I'm pretty sure he's strong, just that he isn't played cz he's not flashy like Yasuo or Zed.

Snowman Arc1 votes

There are a lot of non-flashy champs that are being played. It's just that Yorick's game play is so one-dimensional. It's just set up your ghosts and split push all game. That's the only thing he can do. In teamfights, he is useless because he can't really set up his ghosts, and even if he does, they will die pretty instantly to any AoE.

The fact that he can only splitpush makes him kinda useless, especially in a meta where splitpush isn't really working and teamfighting is by far more important. Of course, you can still stomp bronze and silver elo with Yorick, since he can easily 1v2 or 1v3 if he gets slightly ahead and solo carry.

FNC Jinx5 votes

Yeah it was Ornn only Kai'Sa and Swain Irelia

Dead flag blues4 votes

[{quoted}](name=FNC Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qiwKtbrV,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-05-01T07:40:53.451+0000)

Yeah it was Ornn only Kai'Sa and Swain Irelia

Ekko ZoeKalista

JaxMoonStealer1 votes

Those were weak compared to the OG broken release: XinZhao

inplane1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dead flag blues,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qiwKtbrV,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-05-01T11:44:53.202+0000)

Ekko ZoeKalista

Taliyah

Doozku4 votes

I don't understand the obsession with making new champions balanced on release. Getting a balanced champion in release is not a testament to the champions kit, nor is an unbalanced release proof that a champion is unbalanceable. If a champion is balanced on release, it's because Riot got lucky. That's it. There's pretty much no way to guarantee a champion is balanced on release, and certain champions (like mobile ones) are literally impossible to balance on release.

Though i kind of have to agree with you here. Riot has a tendency of just going overboard with either buffs or nerfs on a champions release. Like how they gave Ornn massive straight buffs after his release, or buffed every aspect of Kai'sa's and Swain's kit, or how they thrashed all of Irelia's base stats a day after her release. Sometimes these champs just needs some QoL changes, like Swain's W range increase or Kai'sa's range increase but combining that with buffs to the rest of the kit is overkill.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

And in the cases where they DON'T immediately make changes to a champ people still complain. Or is everyone going to ignore all the times that Riot has been patient with a champ's release only for everyone on the boards to say Riot is Satan for not nerfing or buffing them sooner?

Teridax683 votes

I remember the week after Kai'Sa's release, where a great deal many players went to the Boards to warn Riot not to overbuff her, as they did with every previous release that started out with a low win rate. We brought up many past examples of champions suffering, including many who suffered much harder (e.g. Ivern, Tahm Kench, Gnar), before turning into complete balance monstrosities after a few misguided buffs, in addition to dominating the competitive scene the moment pro players figured them out. Riot's response to this was to reassure us that this time would be different, that these buffs were extensively researched and tested, and that they were sure to land Kai'Sa in just the right spot. They didn't. This total lack of hindsight worries me, because not only does it indicate that the devs balancing new champions aren't learning from past mistakes, but it also suggests that they refuse to learn, and somehow believe that repeating the exact same methodology as before will somehow produce different results.

I absolutely agree with the OP here: one week, let alone a couple of days, is not a good enough window of time to properly assess a new champion's strength. There is always a learning curve, especially when Riot releases more complex or mechanically difficult champions, and it's only once a certain number of players have gone past that curve that we can have a better idea of where a champion lies in terms of power. What Riot is doing right now is that they're effectively balancing new releases around their win rate at under 15 games, which as anyone can check on any stat site, is always much lower than a champion's actual win rate over a larger spread. This effect is even more intense on new champions, because players are figuring their kit out on their own, and do not yet have any sort of solid build or guide to follow. Because of this, I think we need at the very least one patch cycle to gauge a champion's power: if they're doing far too well, then for sure they could get hotfixed, and the same should likely be done if they have some crazy low win rate, e.g. some sub-40 win rate as was the case for Syndra and Azir (though both happened also because the champions were super buggy on release), but anything in-between should be met with patience and proper analysis.

TempName748142 votes

she was definitely objectively bad on release. but they overbuffed the shit out of her. the e buff and passive buff (the passive buff could be halved) were enough. she just didn't need the auto range buff or the q range/dmg/cd buff or the w dmg buff

Teridax681 votes

I agree that Kai'Sa wasn't perfectly balanced on release, and was likely on the weaker side, but to this day it's not entirely certain, because none of us were given enough time to properly gauge her power level before she received blanket buffs. I would've personally been okay with pure buffs to Kai'Sa, provided they were more moderate and informed by a more solid period of testing. As it stands, she received knee-jerk buffs after only too little time on Live, and it's this kind of rushed balancing method that continues to cause problems in League.

Snowman Arc2 votes

Both Swain and Kaisa were very bad on release, partly because of lack of how to play them. But they were inherently weak. If some champion is weak, no one is gonna play them, so there won't be enough data.

Making the champion appealing to play by buffing them means that more people will play that champion therefore more data will be out there to get clues on how to proceed.

Kagemyth1 votes

agreed... especially for champs with a steep learning curve.

TempName748142 votes

kaisa doesn't have a very steep learning curve. it's just 3 autos + w = massive burst combo. everything else is just simple shit taken from other champions.

Karma speed boost to reposition Yasuo ultimate that relies on either teammate cc or landing a skillshot RekSai w functionally identical to burrowed q

######not kaisa qq, i've just been playing pretty much only kaisa since shortly before the buffs xd

Kagemyth1 votes

i wouldnt entirely disagree but a lot of people i knew didnt know how to play her because she isnt ur average adc playstyle and were getting annihilated. like yeah if ur only looking to auto with her then its relatively simple but bad but if ur looking for more then....

ZackTheWaffleMan1 votes

I'm fairly sure it would be "demagation," not "demagesation."

Zethro1 votes

why are new champs being broken a bad thing, the new spicy edition to the rift should be ripping up the rift imo, and most people below diamond wont be solo carrying 100% of the time cuz they r all one tricks... calm down bro

Blades in Exile1 votes

I see a lot of people talking about riot buffing Kai'sa for being weak after release even tho she was fine but people seem to forget the actual reason they buffed her: her creators put forward some changes they felt would make kai'sa feel better to play even tho she would be strong after. Pretty sure the balance team knew she would be strong after the changes but they still wanted to adhere to the creators wishes and put those buffs in, but wait for nerfs incase she actually wasn't going to be as strong as they thought.

VelvetCrotch1 votes

? Swain was garbage at release. THE ! after weeks ! they overbuffed him.

Risen291 votes

Unfortunately I dont think they will allow that. They have a financial incentive to make sure the champion is desirable to play right after release to maximize sales. They will probably always be quick to buff, slow to nerf, in the opening months for that reason.

gabetheguy1 votes

both swain and kai were mediocre at best at release.

Wild Geese1 votes

I have to disagree on Swain because his release did have issues that need qol buffs (e and w were ridiculously easy to dodge, demon flare was weak), and yes they made him too strong, but after the nerfs he ended up on a more playable and balanced state than initially (though effect of mana charges remain to be seen.)

There's a lot more that remains to be seen with Kai'Sa but she for sure needed that range buff and will be better off in the long term...

So although they may had overdone it, it's better they did this than nothing at all.

SoldMySoulToSona1 votes

It is only about money > break it > monetize it > nerf it > repeat .... cash out every new champ and rework and destroy the game , GG $$$ greedy (random non nice word) from Riot

Seekêr1 votes

We? Homie speak for yourself, ive loved the last few releases 😛.

I think itemization and tempo are what is killing the game.

Guys it takes a long time to build a puzzle from the center out.

Find what you can control, what is easy to manipulate(edges of the puzzle) and change that.

Comparing lol to other mobas and pvp games, I believe this game needs more hp, more map interactions that are less impactful but offer advantages to laners.(stop groping the jungle, leave it be for a change that's literally the middle of the puzzle and you've tried tackling it like 4 frickin seasons)

Tldr; we're looking for the wrong solutions

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