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@Meddler The excuse you won't buff towers due to snowball is a bad one

Elohaven··95 votes·17,733 views

You thought about this of course. But I disagree with it.

Someone is 0/3 in lane. You don't want to buff towers because you want other team members to be able to help the other lane sooner.

That's not going to work because the person who snowballed will be pretty strong compared to other lanes. They get first tower and their team has a huge advantage as they can just keep pushing bot turret and force another lane to give up a tower or get rift herald for a free tower. Then they can easily secure baron because it doesn't deal damage - so you just need to keep smite up. You also will automatically win the team fight since most of baron's damage is null.

If you buffed towers - the 0/3 laner would stay in lane longer and might be 0/4 or 0/5 but the enemy laner still gets less gold compared to another tower or a kill from another lane where the kill gold is 300 rather than the measly 250 or 150 they get in their snowballed lane since your ally is feeding.

Ally may be able to scale and still have equal CS while your lanes have enough time to win, force a back, get a good back and roam, make more opportunities, etc. League is all about time.

Towers being weak is supporting snowballing in itself.

--

Edit: TotalJerk's comment in the comment section is a very good paragraph on some of the issues with towers. I won't post his entire post here as I would like his comment to be upvoted by here's some of it:

Also, it's actually a common tactic in high elo to NOT take the tower so that you can continue to deny the losing player CS more safely and even bounce the wave back to your side more easily for a freeze. If you take the turret and continue laning you have to put yourself in a position where it is much easier to get ganked.

This portion may seem like it counters my post - but it's also stating towers don't really do much for you if you're getting dived. There's very little risk against good diving champions like Akali, Katarina, Zed, Hecarim.

Edit: Comment section is a bit toxic. Please respect each other and Riot. I understand everyone has feelings on the topic but we aren't going to get to Riot by insulting them or make a good discussion by being over-aggressive to each other.

34 Comments

Netorare55 votes

Meddler and the whole balance have no idea how to balance and yet people defend them... Riot itself forgot that the playerbase made them who they are now, but i guess it's normal for a money hungry company to sell their playerbase to the sweet LC$ money and the so called "pro play"...

N636 votes

{quoted}

Meddler and the whole balance have no idea how to balance and yet people defend them...

Lol okay, We got some random kid who thinks they know how to balance a game with millions of players vs a team of ACTUAL balancers who have been with the game for a very long time.

Netorare27 votes

{quoted}

Lol okay, We got some random kid who thinks they know how to balance a game with millions of players vs a team of ACTUAL balancers who have been with the game for a very long time.

Well, too bad some people that are not in the balance team have a better idea on how balance the game so just stop trying kiss Riots ass.

MidEvilKnight3k12 votes

I guarantee you would do worse as well as 95% of the people on this board. I am certainly not going to defend everything they do since a fair amount of it is bizarre, but I think we need to be clear on something. It is in Riots best interest for people to enjoy playing the game. Nobody is going to watch lcs if nobody plays the game. The "greedy company just wants money" complaint is only valid if they are trying to suck money out of their player base with a pay to win model. The only thing in League that was marginally pay to win was the old runes system and that got reworked. The way for them to make good money is to produce a good product, so as long as they don't do pay to win, they can be as greedy as they want.

GayFluffyUnicorn13 votes

Yes, we need to be clear on something. The current live design is absolutely terrible at their job. And their job isn't even the hardest: "perfect imbalance blah. " If the actual founders would give a shit about this game the live design team would have been fired yesterday.

A live design team that manages to destroy half their western playerbase, viewer numbers are skydiving. Streamers and other content creators straight up quitting and complaining left and right and you are trying to tell me you can do worse?

How much worse can you be at your job then destroying the most successful and most played game of all times? How full of yourself do you need to be to continue down that path without ever stopping and saying: wait, we took a wrong turn.

A lot of people in this community, most of whom aren't even around anymore would have INDEED done a BETTER JOB because i and a lot of others have been warning riot for YEARS now about the same exact shit that is happening right now. Dmg too high, snowball too high, this too high that too high. They powercreeped the fuck out of the game and added more and more mechanics to combat their failures which led to even more imbalances and powercreep because these guys are SO full of themselves they can never just admit they fucked up and need to take a step back.

But as long as 970 million chinese are watching the eu masters everything is fine at riot HQ.

Battalion3 votes

I guarantee you would do worse as well as 95% of the people on this board. I am certainly not going to defend everything they do since a fair amount of it is bizarre, but I think we need to be clear on something. It is in Riots best interest for people to enjoy playing the game.

That's basically the idea that these people keep missing. I think some of the balancing is poorly done, lazy, and overly ambitious. However, I'm grateful that we have the current balance team over the vast majority of these balancing wanna-be's that aren't even in Gold. Yes, that matters, if you can't be "above average" at game mechanics you shouldn't be balancing them or even be allowed to influence them. Unpopular opinion, but whatever, it is what it is.

Sewer Side3 votes

Shit like this should get banned.

“Kissing Riot’s ass” way to dismiss his post, like your opinion is anymore valid lmao

0DESTROYERZ04 votes

looks like you are new to what we call the internet.

Sewer Side1 votes

And looks like you can’t read the forum rules.

Giga Baboon3 votes

Think before you speak.

What

The

Fuck

Is

A

Balancer

You know that's not a real profession, right. And I've been here since season 1, so I guess I'm more qualified than meddler, repetoir, ghostcrawler, and that one fool who has him taking a selfie for a twitter picture who's gold.

AirKingNeo2 votes

ok but tbh what else you gonna put as a twitter profile pic but a selfie?

Battalion1 votes

I've been here since before S1 and I don't believe I'm qualified. Not sure what you did that I haven't done that makes you qualified.

PS. let me see your Judgement Kayle skin, you should have it if you played in Season 1 or previous.

TheSingularity5 votes

Actually wrong, they have a new balance team. Can't remember where Meddler confirmed everyone's concerns that this was the case. But the current team is making mistakes that the old team simply didn't. They're going through their own training wheels cycle, which the old team already did where all they do is fk up until they learn the ins and outs of balance. After they had this cycle, the old team balanced like fken gods and I loved the game in all of the metas they made. Now? Fire that fken team and bring the old one back! The old team balanced the juggernaut update and the first jungle rework, not sure what they produced after that. But think about how much every other class update crashed and burned. Think of the meta we are in. We've had an assassin meta before. BUT IT WAS NOTHING LIKE THIS!

Lauchmelder10 votes

I don't need to be a genius to see that the biggest balance problem right now is games being too short.

I don't even dare to balance single champions, but a game that used to last 35+ minutes and was balanced around that gametime for all lategame (hyper-) carries being shortened by imo bad decisions without adjusting the speed of getting to your lategame fantasy is a MASSIVE problem even an idiot could see.

Riot has two options to counter this: 1.) increase gold gain by such an absurd amount that lategame starts at 20 minutes with everyone having 3+ items and boots or

2.) buff towers/ nerf damage all across the board.

I'd prefer option 2.

Marothennan7 votes

{quoted}

Lol okay, We got some random kid who thinks they know how to balance a game with millions of players vs a team of ACTUAL balancers who have been with the game for a very long time.

Yes we can see they are very good at their job

AirKingNeo1 votes

The millions of players part actually makes it easier to balance.

You get accurate data as opposed to your own random playtesting. I mod and balance a a game with little playerbase and trying to figure out balance sucks for me.

A Nunu8 votes

{quoted}

Lol okay, We got some random kid who thinks they know how to balance a game with millions of players vs a team of ACTUAL balancers who have been with the game for a very long time.

You speak as if the designers working for Riot games literally can't do anything wrong no matter what the majority of the community thinks about it. Don't brainlessly follow someone just because of their status. https://i.imgur.com/b7Hjwht.png/img

N631 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Nunu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRtnOvEI,comment-id=000000000006,timestamp=2018-06-18T02:22:59.593+0000)

You speak as if the designers working for Riot games literally can't do anything wrong no matter what the majority of the community thinks about it. Don't brainlessly follow someone just because of their status. https://i.imgur.com/b7Hjwht.png/img

So you want me to think that some rando who mains Nunu instead of a Balance team that has to consider thousands of things every patch?

Usernamehere12351 votes

It's opinions exactly like these that create the issues that we see with the Boards. There's a reason why nobody uses the Boards anymore; there's a reason why Rioters don't use them anymore. It's because the people on this forum, on average, don't care for rational discussion about the balance of the game. They're instead predatory, and only serve to underhand the balance team or Riot.

If you're really going to tell me that the balance team has no idea how to balance the game, the only information I can gleam is that you're either ignorant or malicious; I think the latter is more accurate.

Karunamon5 votes

They're instead predatory, and only serve to underhand the balance team or Riot.

Welp, can't really blame 'em.

  • Do shitty thing
  • People call you out
  • Evade place where people call you out
  • Called out for being evasive and uncommunicative
  • Evade further
  • Y R BOARDS SO HOSTILE!?!?!?!
Skorch1 votes

{quoted}

Meddler and the whole balance have no idea how to balance and yet people defend them... Riot itself forgot that the playerbase made them who they are now, but i guess it's normal for a money hungry company to sell their playerbase to the sweet LC$ money and the so called "pro play"...

Im not gonna say that Rioters cant be criticized.

But 2 things:

  1. Riot has fully bent over these last couple patches trying to fix some overall issues. And the ONLY issue i can see rn GAME-WISE (the individual balance of say true damage and Yi, and some other things. is pretty out of wack but who knows what itll look like in 3 patches.) Is towers.
  2. And the people who defend Rioters just think personally attacking Rioters and saying they should be fired isnt the right way to look at balance.
Tomoe Gozen1 votes

Literally every argument regarding League's balance team devolves into this piece of garbage "hihi, Rito only cares about LCS money, where's my praise for playing their game".

Riot made League and when it first came out, the game was actually good and fun AND THAT'S WHY PEOPLE PLAYED IT. Fast forward 9+ years later, League's still alive with it still being the top of MMO games.

"Riot itself forgot that the playerbase made them who they are now"

LOL What did you make for Riot? You weren't forced to play League, not once. You played League for free from the very beginning. You CHOSE to spend money on skins you liked, you chose to be placed on their ranked ladder. You chose to spend your time making League your primary game. No one forced the decision on you. And just as easy you can choose to leave.

What a hypocrite you are. Riot made themselves a goldmine, you didn't contribute to anything. It is through their effort and your recognition of their effort that they retained their massive playerbase. You didn't choose to stay and keep the game afloat by pumping up the player numbers from the goodness of your heart, given your stance.

ignyte1 votes

{quoted}

Meddler and the whole balance have no idea how to balance and yet people defend them... Riot itself forgot that the playerbase made them who they are now, but i guess it's normal for a money hungry company to sell their playerbase to the sweet LC$ money and the so called "pro play"...

This comment presented in 4K HD by Jersey Mike's Subs. "Jersey Mike's, because when you think LCS, think Sandwich."

TotalJerk7 votes

In high elo the comment makes sense, in low elo that statement can be confusing.

Basically when the first tower goes down the laning phase effectively ends. When the laning phase is over the game becomes less of a 1v1 and more of a team game, allowing the feeding player to use their allies as a crutch instead of being solo killed over and over again by that Riven/Renekton/Darius/Fiora.

Also, it's actually a common tactic in high elo to NOT take the tower so that you can continue to deny the losing player CS more safely and even bounce the wave back to your side more easily for a freeze. If you take the turret and continue laning you have to put yourself in a position where it is much easier to get ganked.

Regardless, the problem has never been that towers die too fast, IMO. The problem is that towers are too goddamn stupid and that they are borderline useless against a good diving champion.

Elohaven1 votes

This is a really good point. I'll add it to my OP because it's a great point that needs to be looked at.

Fedoran4 votes

many agree

limebuster3 votes

basically, u lose one trade botlane and the tower is gone

flibitydoo4 votes

and then the enemy botlane rotates to mid, takes their tower, kills their midlane, and runs away with the rest of the game.

And it's the fear of that which is why pro-play is so passive. If tower's weren't sh*t and people couldn't do that, then people would actually play for winning lanes and you'd have way more ganks/action in the LCS.

coffee4me1 votes

Does anyone misses the times when you actually had laning phase? I have the feeling that laning phase takes around 6-7 minutes nowadays. After that you have to group or the enemy team takes your every tower. I really liked the times where you could 1 v 1 your opponent for a while longer and where you could actually express your fighting skills. Now if you die to a gank, they take your tower, rotate to other lane, take that tower etc... The game is now decided in first 7 minutes. Comebacks are not likely to happen too often and this is the reason the game duration is too short. I would really like for Riot to consider to buff outer turrets so we can enjoy the laning phase longer.

DragonShea3 votes

Towers are so weak that I don't even need to get Demolish on Yorick or other split pushing champs due to how weak towers are.

Silent Pace2 votes

From their perspective, as you said, and from what I read, they want towers to fall pretty early so the losing lane can get help from other lanes.

Essentially Riot just wants lane phase to end as fast as possible.

Personally I don't see a reason behind doing this because laning phase already ends around level 5 to 10. I actually prefer a longer laning phase because everyone comes out a bit more even mid-game, while there are more chances to make a comeback and then fights are decided by how good your rotations are and your skill in teamfights.

I mean maybe they could make it so Rift Herald kills a single tower and then vanishes, while also making Rift Herald incredibly easy to get early on so it would be contested with both Scuttle Crab and Dragon in mind. But I don't want to give them any ideas because this sounds like something they might actually do.

Giga Baboon1 votes

Yes but Meddler talked at you about his intentions to be wrong till the very end so it's ok - some boot licker raving about riot's "communication"

VADMDangerNoodle1 votes

I agree pretty turrets should be tankier, but I really mostly think they should do more damage or scale a bit with champ dmg over the game. At lvl 6 the fear of a 3 man dive bot lane is stupidly high. If you get chunked at all and their jg shows up you're in huge trouble if they do a decent job of tanking tower and don't screw up and get stunned with aggro or something.

CSing under turret is hard but better than trying to CS without a turret or being useful when you've been dead so much you're behind in items and get melted in skirmishes or fights, meaning farming is even more so your only option the further behind you get, basically putting your team a man down with the other side free to roam while you try and recover from a gold disadvantage unable to do anything. I'd gladly CS under a turret than do that.

So yeah, I'd second stronger turrets (both in damage and hp) to prevent snowballing

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