PSA | Riot and the Boards lost the goal of the ADC nerfs

Elohaven·Aug 23, 2018·93 votes·18,350 views

ADCs were nerfed not just because they were OP and dished out damage, but because it was the starting point to fix League with its large amount of damage throughout the game.

The goal we lost was that ADCs weren't the only ones doing a lot of damage. There were other problematic factors but ADCs were a good starting point. The objective was to start there and slowly nerf everything else so towers survive longer, games are healthier, strategy can be implemented, and the game isn't just this linear fest of gold and damage.

80 Comments

LTK KoRoAug 23, 201818 votes

Well it sounds pretty made up considering how ADCs now deal more damage in late game to anyone with more than a cloth armor. I mean, the premise sounds good, but ADCs damage didn't went down that much, and they're even stronger against tanks than before.

OtterlyLostAug 23, 201817 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lNBAuyVH,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-08-23T12:55:29.369+0000)

Well it sounds pretty made up considering how ADCs now deal more damage in late game to anyone with more than a cloth armor. I mean, the premise sounds good, but ADCs damage didn't went down that much, and they're even stronger against tanks than before.

ADC damage did go down, what are you talking about. ADCs are still weaker than they were pre 8.11. One of the "buffs" they gave ADCs was to their item builds that shaved off 10 AD and 5% true damage off their core item in exchange for a slightly lower cost and a better build path. They are weaker late game for it because they have less AD and less true damage.

I dont get the point of this post because if the nerfs to ADCs were intended to lower the damage, it was successful. Now they hit squishies like a wet paper bag, even when ahead and their late game isn't half as strong.

And for that matter, they have gone through and nerfed not just ADCs but also many of the assassin rune choices.

Critmaster GarenAug 23, 201816 votes

{quoted}

ADC damage did go down, what are you talking about. ADCs are still weaker than they were pre 8.11. One of the "buffs" they gave ADCs was to their item builds that shaved off 10 AD and 5% true damage off their core item

10 ad that they previously added in 8.11

in exchange for a slightly lower cost and a better build path.

this is an udnerstatement. they shaved 1000 gold off marksmen item builds. they also gave them direct kit buffs.

hey are weaker late game for it because they have less AD and less true damage.

the other guy is right, their lategame dps is stronger than before. especially against beefier targets. riot said this from the start when they made these changes.

I dont get the point of this post because if the nerfs to ADCs were intended to lower the damage, it was successful. Now they hit squishies like a wet paper bag

are they though? Jhin Lucian MissFortune Draven

still burst the fuck out of squishies.

they removed the 50% damage amp on infinity edge for marksmen to reduce their frontloaded burst by opening a fight with a crit and then added item 3095 to give them guaranteed frontloaded burst.

KaìjuAug 23, 20189 votes

Those four are meant to nuke people too, MF literally goes lethality a lot. That's like saying Kog does a lot of mixed DPS, yeah, that's his point. Those four are meant to be more burst than DPS.

OtterlyLostAug 23, 20188 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lNBAuyVH,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-23T13:47:46.652+0000)

10 ad that they previously added in 8.11

this is an udnerstatement. they shaved 1000 gold off marksmen item builds. they also gave them direct kit buffs.

the other guy is right, their lategame dps is stronger than before. especially against beefier targets. riot said this from the start when they made these changes.

are they though?

still burst the fuck out of squishies.

they removed the 50% damage amp on infinity edge for marksmen to reduce their frontloaded burst by opening a fight with a crit and then added to give them guaranteed frontloaded burst.

As someone else pointed out, those four are caster based ADCs. They should be bursting you with AAs and abilities and of them only Jhin and Draven use the supposed broken Stormrazor. MF uses duskblade and lethality with Dark Harvest and Lucian is honestly trash right now unless you're a god at him; his winrate is low and he builds Bork. Not Crit

As for cost being lowered, it's not an overstatement in the least. Their core three items and boots(IE, shiv, RFC) still come out to 10100. I dont see a significant cost lowering here at all.

If you're referencing the cost lowering to StormRazor, it was more the items cost was lowered for everyone who abuses, of which that still more Assassins than ADCs.

ADCs are weaker than they were pre 8.11. Even if their strength was stronger in the late game, that's where they're intended to be strong and doing their damage.

I want them to rework stormrazor as much as the next person but I'm not blaming ADCs for it or making up nonsense about them blowing people up with it. The primary abusers of the item have always been Assassins and that's an issue multiple people said would happen.

LordGeovanniAug 23, 20181 votes

ADC Damage didnt go down the snowballing when down because they arent picking up shiv at 7 mins and beating your face it. and one adc item got a 10 ad nerf for a class that was supposed to be getting nerfs to lower damage but every adcs got it back in their kit without any testing of what they would be like without it and that buffed all of their builds not just compensated the nerf to crit

BarbaJhiniAug 23, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lNBAuyVH,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-08-23T12:55:29.369+0000)

Well it sounds pretty made up considering how ADCs now deal more damage in late game to anyone with more than a cloth armor. I mean, the premise sounds good, but ADCs damage didn't went down that much, and they're even stronger against tanks than before.

dude, 10% true damage instead of 50% more damage on critical strikes. Do some quick maths and you see how the damage went down, plus the waveclear and objective damage. Why do you think that recently buying lifesteal and arm pen is so delayed if barely done at all?

toastMonkeyAug 23, 20189 votes

From the beginning of this initiative, I assumed the game would be put into an out-of-balance state as damage was brought down in different aspects.

The damage is distributed across champion kits, items, and runes. Damage is also diverse, ranging from flat values to percentage values and damage type (magic, physical, true). So, it's impossible to straight nerf everything in one shot. Imbalance is therefore inevitable until the damage state is brought close to intended levels and tweaks are made to rebalance overall game state.

The first time I saw an "OMG, ADCs are so weak" post on the boards, I thought Well, this isn't going to go well I know it's hard, but short term imbalance when design is moving in an intended direction is necessary - even if that imbalance is purposeful weakness aka a champ/class/item/rune becomes underpowered for a time.

Pika FoxAug 23, 20185 votes

Damage isnt "too high". If you build full damage, you SHOULD be doing insane damage, and kill people quickly. Likewise, if you build no defenses, you SHOULD die instantly.

AyzevAug 23, 201830 votes

Damage absolutely is too high. It's true that building only damage and no defense is supposed to make you deal a lot of damage and die easily, but if this is brought to such an extreme that every game it's expected to see multiple <2 sec 100-0's, then you're hardly playing the game anymore. It's not fun to have fights decided solely by who clicks on their enemy first. There's no skill expression in that.

Pika FoxAug 23, 20184 votes

There is plenty of skill expression. Dancing around enemy threat lines, warding properly, not running off solo and expecting to live overextending, getting a good pick/engage. And the only people instantly dying are the squishies who SHOULD be behind the tanks. And no, tanks dont die instantly. If you die instantly as a tank, stop building IE on rammus.

Madsin25Aug 23, 201816 votes

Combat is what makes the game fun.

Nobody has fun warding. Nobody has fun dancing around enemy threat lines.

I have fun in combat, and when everyone is dying in 1 second it is not fun.

It's actually the opposite of fun. it is stressful.

Pika FoxAug 23, 20184 votes

That has nothing to do with my statement. They said there was no skill expression, there is.

As to what is fun or not, thats highly subjective and not a good argument to make, especially since the most fun game modes are aram and nexus blitz, both of which are full on fiesta fests with everyone constantly dying.

3TWarriorAug 23, 20189 votes

what? ARAM is fun because you can always try something new and no one will get on your case unless you just aren't playing the game. I haven't gotten to play nexus blitz.

take for example, someone might try running full-AD singed in aram...it's a terrible build, but they could bulk up with singe's ultimate, but if they could explain their theory, people might be willing to work with them

now if they were full-ad singed and just ran into the enemy team kamikaze style...then everyone would be upset

aram is fun because you can essentially do what you want so long as you play the game until higher MMR. People can't complain that you don't get the champ you want

Pika FoxAug 23, 20181 votes

Otherwise known as one giant murder fiesta.

3TWarriorAug 24, 20183 votes

mid and late game ARAM, you actually survive longer than on SR because there are less surprise attacks. it's all one lane

LegitBusinessmanAug 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Combat is what makes the game fun.

Nobody has fun warding. Nobody has fun dancing around enemy threat lines.

I have fun in combat, and when everyone is dying in 1 second it is not fun.

It's actually the opposite of fun. it is stressful.

Dude if I remember Pika doesn't do anything except play bots and aram. Don't take them seriously.

Them and Fizzv2 are probably the biggest trolls on this forum.

AyzevAug 23, 201812 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lNBAuyVH,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-08-23T15:29:36.509+0000)

There is plenty of skill expression. Dancing around enemy threat lines, warding properly, not running off solo and expecting to live overextending, getting a good pick/engage.

Of course, we still have at least these things to differentiate between a challenger and a bronze. But I was referring to skill expression in fights specifically, not the game in general.

And the only people instantly dying are the squishies

And they should be dying quickly, but not instantly. Everything in moderation.

ShalashalskaAug 23, 20185 votes

I have died in less than 2 seconds as a 220 armor/120 mr 10k health Cho. Black Cleaver plus lord Dominic's basically nullifies armor.

My Waifu VanillaAug 24, 20183 votes

Go download the replay and upload the clip otherwise no one is going to believe these claims. Maybe if you watch it at 5x speed you died in 2 seconds, but that claim you made is not only unrealistic, but it is so far out of the lines of possibilities I don't know why you are making it.

AnidanAug 24, 20181 votes

I won't lie, I kinda wanna see that replay. Not because I don't believe you but because that sounds impressively fast and I want to see how they did it first hand. 10k is a lot of health to punch through in 2 seconds, armor or no armor.

3TWarriorAug 23, 20184 votes

except, when damage is too high, the reward does not outweigh the risk. it is then decided by who makes the first mistake or by who has the more advantageous champions and not by being able to play properly in an engage

if you miss a reaction by a few milliseconds or a mechanical fault, is that an expression of skill?

Pika FoxAug 23, 20181 votes

It is a display of skill, yes. That is honestly what separates the high end pros from everyone else for the most part. And league has always been a game about winning because you made the least mistakes as opposed to playing the best, even since s1.

3TWarriorAug 24, 20183 votes

so if your controller or keyboard stops working, they are more skilled than you? If there is a latency spike, they are more skilled than you?

what separates the high elo players from the rest of the players is their ability to control and adapt to situations. Instead, it is now where if you take initiative and succeed, you win, if you don't, you were probably a ranged champion anyway and run off, hoping the opponent doesn't get one hit on you to be able to win...

that is incredibly binary

professional players are supposed to win by working together...not by gaining an unbeatable advantage because there is no reaction time

Pika FoxAug 24, 20181 votes

You mean players who play better and take the initiative are rewarded for playing properly? Damn, thats so bad. Needs to be changed so players who mess up and over extend and get collapsed on can win.

3TWarriorAug 24, 20181 votes

Taking the initiative means that you are preparing to get the first hit, not to win instantly. It's supposed to be a small advantage that both teams can play around

instead, whatever team strikes first is likely to win

I'm confused because now you are saying that damage needs to be reduced so that there is reaction time for an opponent to play with?

Pika FoxAug 24, 20181 votes

Whichever team strikes first is likely to win- thats the point. Unless it was a bad engage, youre supposed to have the advantage here and be more likely to win. That doesnt mean you will win, but youre supposed to more often than not to a noticable degree.

LegitBusinessmanAug 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lNBAuyVH,comment-id=000200000000000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-24T17:32:10.589+0000)

Whichever team strikes first is likely to win- thats the point. Unless it was a bad engage, youre supposed to have the advantage here and be more likely to win. That doesnt mean you will win, but youre supposed to more often than not to a noticable degree.

I started very early season 4 and the game was never like that. That only happened if you hardcore wombod malphite / sejuania ults with something massive or of that sort. Now, literally anything kills you instantly. Why do you think no one plays tanks?

Pika FoxAug 25, 20181 votes

No, its always been that way. Given two teams of equal footing, if someone gets a good engage (read, engaged onto a non tank/blitz didnt pull the amumu) they generally won. Having the first strike is a major advantage, and should be rewarded as such. The only times striking first didnt go over well is when you missplayed (engaged and blew 5 ults for 1 pick, engaged on tank so they soaked too many abilities etc), or the enemy team was far enough ahead that your advantage was nullified. That or they predict your engage and instaflash.

Votable JesterAug 23, 20181 votes

I mean they should certainly provide more incentive to add some defense to your build, but if both parties are glass cannons, they should die in less than 2 seconds.

Sire HippingtonAug 23, 20185 votes

The problem is, if you built full tanky, you SHOULD be insanely tanky, but against any full damage dude mid-lategame, you just aren't. Same with building a mix between off and def, you should expect to survive atleast some time if you sacrifice some damage for defense, but the difference is hardly noticable and most of the time, it's the better call to go full glasscanon and hope you can strike first.

BarbaJhiniAug 23, 20189 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lNBAuyVH,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-08-23T18:11:50.744+0000)

The problem is, if you built full tanky, you SHOULD be insanely tanky, but against any full damage dude mid-lategame, you just aren't. Same with building a mix between off and def, you should expect to survive atleast some time if you sacrifice some damage for defense, but the difference is hardly noticable and most of the time, it's the better call to go full glasscanon and hope you can strike first.

you are right but at the same time if you build full tank you should not be able to one shot a squishy target with a spell rotation which happens right now, it is a double sided problem

MLDzXnRRRAug 24, 20182 votes

{quoted}

you are right but at the same time if you build full tank you should not be able to one shot a squishy target with a spell rotation which happens right now, it is a double sided problem

Why do you think that squishy champ shouldn't die? What is the counterplay to full damage squishy- don't go near him or what? I've seen Twitch with summoner heal and shields by Karma to facetank 2-3 damaging champions - or Kog +lulu/nami, or Janna + Vayne etc. It was honestly sad.

Damaging patterns and playstyles/roles in Lol were never balanced and with counterplay aside from mages with skillshots.( Ranged DPS in DOTA have way less damage early game, are extremely squishy or slow, kiting is harder, because of turn rates, but they don't feel overpowered at all. In HOTS all heroes feel that they deal way less damage than anything in Lol and the game is more team oriented and objective based.)

LegitBusinessmanAug 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Why do you think that squishy champ shouldn't die? What is the counterplay to full damage squishy- don't go near him or what? I've seen Twitch with summoner heal and shields by Karma to facetank 2-3 damaging champions - or Kog +lulu/nami, or Janna + Vayne etc. It was honestly sad.

Damaging patterns and playstyles/roles in Lol were never balanced and with counterplay aside from mages with skillshots.( Ranged DPS in DOTA have way less damage early game, are extremely squishy or slow, kiting is harder, because of turn rates, but they don't feel overpowered at all. In HOTS all heroes feel that they deal way less damage than anything in Lol and the game is more team oriented and objective based.)

A CC tank should be controlling zones and setting up plays for his carries to capitalize on. If a tank is able to just delete a squishy with a full tank build we'd have 5 v 5 tank wet noodle fights. So that's not a good design philosophy.

TheSingularityAug 23, 20186 votes

I build full tank and still almost die instantly.

Calculations in practice tool

Full build zed vs full armor/HP nautilus+W+gargoyle stoneplate =zed with yumoos vs target dummy All lvl 18.

Zed takes nautilus down to about 30% HP with a full R+W Q+W+W+ignite.

So much for my defense

ShablagooAug 24, 20181 votes

So his full kit almost killed him? Is that not reasonable? It would be broken if zed killed him but his full kit didnt.

TheSingularityAug 24, 20185 votes

I am a tank, the dmg pattern in the past has generally been as follows: burst>dps>tank>burst. Basically assassins counter hyper carries, hyper carries counter tanks, tanks counter assassins (they survive long enough to kill an assassin) Until season 8, that was how things generally went. An assassin, unless they build a botrk didn't have a hope in the world of killing a tank. Most of their tank killing was in botrk+AA's (in other words, DPS)

Tanks, unless the enemy was fed could survive the enemy assassin easily. Because that is their job, they trade late game dmg and mobility for big beef and CC. If an assassin can almost kill me in 1.2 rotations, how on earth am I meant to face tank 3-5 times that for my team?

In the example, the zed had until his ult proced to hit me with as much shit as possible (hence why he only got 1 Q and 2 W's). We did do an actual 1v1, he didn't get the second W off but killed the naut and got away with over half hp (when I have almost 6-8 times as much effective HP through armor and health)

If a vayne, kai'sa, ashe of jinx shred me to bits, allg. That is their job. Same with cass, ryze, brand or vel'koz. They're either tank shredding kits or DPS champions

Assassins are not tank busters, they're squishy poppers.

It would be broken if zed killed him but his full kit didnt.

The issue is zed shouldn't even come close, no assassin should (on even footing). 25-35% of my HP sure but certainly not 65-80% in dmg when I can't do the same to someone 6-8 times squishier than me with with the same dmg pattern (burst).

That dmg pattern up top was how it used to be and teams didn't have any trouble dealing with tanks, as there were plenty of anti tank champions (every single marksman, a majority of divers/juggernauts and quite a few mages). Don't see why shit should be any different now. Would expect things to resolve once dmg is toned down, if it gets toned down

NorglicsAug 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I am a tank, the dmg pattern in the past has generally been as follows: burst>dps>tank>burst. Basically assassins counter hyper carries, hyper carries counter tanks, tanks counter assassins (they survive long enough to kill an assassin) Until season 8, that was how things generally went. An assassin, unless they build a botrk didn't have a hope in the world of killing a tank. Most of their tank killing was in botrk+AA's (in other words, DPS)

Tanks, unless the enemy was fed could survive the enemy assassin easily. Because that is their job, they trade late game dmg and mobility for big beef and CC. If an assassin can almost kill me in 1.2 rotations, how on earth am I meant to face tank 3-5 times that for my team?

In the example, the zed had until his ult proced to hit me with as much shit as possible (hence why he only got 1 Q and 2 W's). We did do an actual 1v1, he didn't get the second W off but killed the naut and got away with over half hp (when I have almost 6-8 times as much effective HP through armor and health)

If a vayne, kai'sa, ashe of jinx shred me to bits, allg. That is their job. Same with cass, ryze, brand or vel'koz. They're either tank shredding kits or DPS champions

Assassins are not tank busters, they're squishy poppers.

The issue is zed shouldn't even come close, no assassin should (on even footing). 25-35% of my HP sure but certainly not 65-80% in dmg when I can't do the same to someone 6-8 times squishier than me with with the same dmg pattern (burst).

That dmg pattern up top was how it used to be and teams didn't have any trouble dealing with tanks, as there were plenty of anti tank champions (every single marksman, a majority of divers/juggernauts and quite a few mages). Don't see why shit should be any different now. Would expect things to resolve once dmg is toned down, if it gets toned down

yup assassins needs a huge nerf, they have high built in dmg with very high dmg multipliers the problem is they are good in everything if they can get throu the lane farming phase and with their ultra high dps they can push objectives easily , 10 sec baron kills that is so stupid and lame

ShablagooAug 24, 20181 votes

Why are you complaining about assassins, when brusiers that abuse conq are the ones that made tanks completely obsolete affectively replacing them? No matter how much defense you build you still die to them. They are tank + deal dmg, they have enough dmg to kill assassins and tank too. Why play a tank when I can get Streaks and effectively two shot squishes too.

Also are you not assuming that the zed actually focuses you? In what real situation would a zed or any assassin for that matter, focus a tank? If he is honestly you are doing your job, zed though? He isnt he is failing miserably. Zed isnt your problem Mf, jihn, Draven, and Lucian is. Mf does the same dmg with auto's from range, while building the same build.

And I dont think its unreasonable because a zed builds full pen, with item 3036 35% of you armor is useless. If the zed actually focuses you, which he shouldn't he still doesnt even kill you so you effectively did your job. You wasted the zeds ult, allowing your team to kill him. Tanks are not 1v1 machines, after the laning phase you, CC and tank the dmg that sometimes hits you.

NorglicsAug 24, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Why are you complaining about assassins, when brusiers that abuse conq are the ones that made tanks completely obsolete affectively replacing them? No matter how much defense you build you still die to them. They are tank + deal dmg, they have enough dmg to kill assassins and tank too. Why play a tank when I can get Streaks and effectively two shot squishes too.

Also are you not assuming that the zed actually focuses you? In what real situation would a zed or any assassin for that matter, focus a tank? If he is honestly you are doing your job, zed though? He isnt he is failing miserably. Zed isnt your problem Mf, jihn, Draven, and Lucian is. Mf does the same dmg with auto's from range, while building the same build.

And I dont think its unreasonable because a zed builds full pen, with 35% of you armor is useless. If the zed actually focuses you, which he shouldn't he still doesnt even kill you so you effectively did your job. You wasted the zeds ult, allowing your team to kill him. Tanks are not 1v1 machines, after the laning phase you, CC and tank the dmg that sometimes hits you.

i see you are beginner in this game why bring a tank when an assassin just kills one enemy insta ? then he can do objectives way way way better and still run away if things go bad

ShablagooAug 24, 20181 votes

Again are you not listening, no assassins is killing tanks like zed kills squishies. No assassin is killing tanks with a w, e, q duskblade proc. The assassins needs to use there full kit, and as proven above by the previous post, whats funny is he didnt kill him even. Assassins are not Tanks biggest problem, especially in a teamfight, if a assassin actually focuses a tank in a teamfight they will lose that teamfight. The tanks job is to be disruptive getting sums and ults literally allows his team to win the teamfight. 1v1 a tank will win early game hands down unless the tank outplays. You really think zed is beating a mao or ornn 1v1 in lane?

Again assassins are not tanks main problem, one because assassins will not focus tanks and even if they do as posted above they will survive regardless. Second the reason tanks are not played is because conq is in the game, things like that along with jax, garen, udyr, and many other brusiers show that it there is no point in going tank when you can just burst tanks as well as squishies. Yet for some reason you guys complain about assassins?

My Waifu VanillaAug 24, 20182 votes

Congratulations you won the fight because Zed ulted you and not your carry. Why are you complaining? You did your job and soaked aggro so your backline could murder their team.

TheSingularityAug 24, 20182 votes

That isn't the point. An assassin shouldn't be able to deal that much damage period. That's like 8 marksman worth of stats that he kills in 3 seconds.

They need to pop one person, gtfo, wait for cd then get back in. They need 3K dmg tops if we take shields/heals into account given almost no squishy buys a decent amount of armor

My Waifu VanillaAug 24, 20181 votes

By your idea they would need 5000 damage if we account for shields heals because EVERY squishy champion has 90 armor and ~2000 health which is a little bit less than 4000 EHP before added heals/shields. That's by JUST base stats. Throw in a GA and it goes up to 130-140 armor which brings us to ~4800 EHP.

NorglicsAug 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lNBAuyVH,comment-id=00020003000100000000,timestamp=2018-08-24T06:40:27.328+0000)

By your idea they would need 5000 damage if we account for shields heals because EVERY squishy champion has 90 armor and ~2000 health which is a little bit less than 4000 EHP before added heals/shields. That's by JUST base stats. Throw in a GA and it goes up to 130-140 armor which brings us to ~4800 EHP.

and it goes pukk in 1 sec or less

NineTailedMysticAug 24, 20182 votes

You mean so they have to wait until the ADC isn't full HP to go in? Or use more than 1 rotation in a 1v1? Wow it's almost like they'd have to think then.

My Waifu VanillaAug 24, 20181 votes

The person I was replying to was inaccurately stating amount of damage to one shot. I corrected him. Not once did I say what my stance on how "fair" that is.

Also if an assassin cant one shot they are useless. There is no "waiting for another rotation" when you are stuck in melee range for 5 seconds since despite popular belief assassins have cooldowns.

Pika FoxAug 24, 20181 votes

If you stand ontop of him all day and not use your shield or CC him, then thats on you. And you playing entirely bad doesnt even kill you.

TheSingularityAug 24, 20181 votes

Did say this was through the W shield and gargoyle stoneplate (25% health increase+about 800-900 health worth of W).

The issue isn't the situation, it's the damage output assassins are capable of

Pika FoxAug 24, 20181 votes

If you literally stand still and do nothing in his aoe and fail to CC them on a champ with 9000 different CCs. And he still cant kill you.