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We need a new tank Tenacity item

darkdill··17 votes·945 views

With Mercury's Treads only giving 20% and Zephyr being removed entirely, multi-CC lockdowns are proving kinda brutal at the moment. Yes, you can get that Resolve Mastery that gives you up to +15%, but that's still a multiplicative bonus, so you won't get above 35% unless you're Irelia (whose passive is something Riot hates).

I can understand why Riot reduced the Tenacity on Mercs, though: to reduce its availability to non-tank classes. But tanks didn't get a new tenacity item to compensate, creating the current problem.

To this end, we are in need of a new CC-resist item that only tanks (and maybe juggernauts) would want. IMO, it should be a high MR item that gives you extra Tenacity based on your bonus resists (up to a cap). This way, you have to have other defensive items or a resist-boosting steroid (like Leona's Eclipse) for it to be cost-effective, and thus it can't be poached by other classes that easily. It'd be kinda similar to how Essence Reaver gives you bonus CDR based on crit chance from other sources.

Anyone want to try mathcrafting a suitable template?

20 Comments

LankPants6 votes

To this end, we are in need of a new CC-resist item that only tanks (and maybe juggernauts) would want.

Tenacity items do not favour tanks. As a tank it doesn't matter if you're CCed. If they waste a CC on you it just means that they won't have that CC for a higher damage member of your team.

The champions who would actually use a tank based tenacity item are bruisers. Champs like Nocturne and Jax like tenacity a lot more than tanks since they are heavily disrupted by CC. Most tanks damage doesn't even stop when they're CCed, things like Sej W, Naut W DOT and Amumu W keep dealing damage while they're CCed.

Melledoneus2 votes

On the other hand, having tenacity as a tank makes you more effective at soaking up CC and getting back to work. Tanks that peel for their carries actually suffer from CC because they are hindered in peeling.

Tanks that can disrupt the back line like Shen and Sion need to get their job done. Locking down carries and dealing decent damage to pressure them is a good way to divert attention and spells, which tenacity would help to negate.

But the real question is... should the tenacity item be armor or MR? Or both? HP only?

LankPants1 votes

Tanks that can disrupt the back line like Shen and Sion need to get their job done.

These tanks already have good methods of getting to the backilne and then have a single CC to drop after they do. Taking a tenacity item on them seems somewhat questionable. It's probably OK on Shen since he's got the whole auto-bruiser thing going, but then that's just feeding back into tenacity working better on more bruiser like champs.

But the real question is... should the tenacity item be armor or MR? Or both? HP only?

It wouldn't matter. Unless the item was so cost efficient that it became a core on all tanky champs it would be a trap on pure tanks. There's just always going to be a better option. If it gave HP/Armour would it ever be better than Rand's if it's statistically weaker? If it gave MR/HP would it be better than SV or BV?

Melledoneus3 votes

Shen is not a bruiser. Well, not naturally. He's a tank. And he's rewarded for building tank.

Also, as for its cost efficiency, it could be like Essence Reaver where it gives up to 30% tenacity based on each increment of armor/MR/HP the champion is building. That way, if Irelia wanted to hit the 80% tenacity mark, she'd have to build triforce and full tank to pull it off. Which she... already does.

Gah. F*ck Irelia.

LankPants1 votes

That way, if Irelia wanted to hit the 80% tenacity mark, she'd have to build triforce and full tank to pull it off. Which she... already does.

Tenacity is a terrible stat for Irelia because it stacks so poorly. A 30% tenacity item only gives Irelia 18% extra CC resist. You lose 40% of any extra tenacity you build on Irelia.

Shen is not a bruiser. Well, not naturally. He's a tank. And he's rewarded for building tank.

He's a bruiser in the same way as Mundo, he's rewarded for standing and auto attacking, and as such he benefits a lot from attack speed. Shen has a bruiser playstyle and historically bruiser item have been core on him. In S2 Shen built 2 of 3 of Ionic Spark, Triforce and Wits End.

80% tenacity mark

Not possible even with a 35% item. At best she gets 1-(0.6x0.65x0.85x0.75)=75%. Any other champ gets 1-(0.65x0.85x0.75)=60%. There's a 15% difference in CC times with Irelia's 40% extra tenacity. This is why don't want to waste gold on tenacity on Irelia, it stacks horribly.

Melledoneus1 votes

That's a strange way for tenacity to stack. Huh. Thanks for informing me about that.

About Shen. Yes, bruiser items work on him because he has CC and can duel well. However, as much as I would love to build that Triforce or Sterak's on him, Shen is usually put into a positiom where he relies heavily on his team to punish the enemy team for trying to peel him off the carries or even follow up on a multi-man taunt. This is where he works best, and building tank is the best way to utilize Shen in this way. Although it's always fun to go bruiser, Shen finds himself building extremely sturdy, full tank to become as much of an asset to his team as possible.

The Bearded Bard4 votes

Stick it on item 1401

Cloud2733 votes

As long as Irelia exists, Riot will NEVER add more CC items. The last thing anyone wants is Irelia with 100% CC (or close to it).

dangopee4 votes

You can't get 100% tenacity as all forms of tenacity stack multiplicatively.

Cloud2732 votes

{quoted}

You can't get 100% tenacity as all forms of tenacity stack multiplicatively.

I never said you could. But still, if irelia had any more options, she'd get pretty close to it.

dangopee2 votes

The most she can get right now is 69.4% tenacity if she has 3 nearby enemy champions and item 3111 and item 2138 and 5 points in the swiftness mastery in the resolve tree.

GhostInTheShell1 votes

the point of merc treads nerf was to make cc relevant again

Juggernauts with merc treads is just as useful as a mid laner with merc treads vs Veigar, their aim was not to reduce tenacity on "non tanks".

might as well ask Riot to revert the nerf, which was not incredibly huge to begin with.

Big Lincoln1 votes

cc was irrelevant?

GhostInTheShell1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Bards,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qiZW25mx,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-12-23T22:42:15.738+0000)

cc was irrelevant?

according to riot, since the only tenacity item in the game was nerfed. What other conclusion can you draw from that? That CC was OP? CC was in a good spot?

Doctor Jarvis1 votes

Nope. We need a tank QSS item. Tanks have Tenacity through masteries, boots, Elixir of Iron, and their ability to ignore CC anyway with their tankiness. But what they need more is a way to deal with the CC that REALLY matters, but it should have a cool down. QSS is perfect for that.

AL0001 votes

play ire as tank.. then you are good to go...

Irelia

yukumari1 votes

As an Irelia main I can agree. Even with the 40% free tenacity, cc lock downs have been pretty brutal at times for me (And other, far more talented Irelia players such as ICU). The Merc Trend Nerf made the item hardly worth buying at all (I havn't bought it since it's nerf period), and the removal of zepher kind of made me sad. Tenacity is all around more difficult to get, but considering how much CC is unaffected by tenacity at the point anyway, i'm not sure how good of an idea that was.

Teridax681 votes

Tanks are already innately advantaged against CC because their raw durability lets them power through almost any amount of lockdown (and if they do get locked down, they win by absorbing the CC intended for their allies, who then get to punish the enemy team at will). If anything, it might be a more interesting idea to have an item that would let tanks "eat" CC for their allies, like a Mikael's Crucible effect that transferred your target's debuffs onto yourself, or a Martyr's Gambit that let you absorb CC instead of damage (or both). There might be an issue with giving allies too much protection, since you might then end up with tanks all being able to pull a Tahm Kench and letting their carries get away from lethal situations too often, but the end result should be that tanks should be happy about being CCed instead of their allies (Braum's good at that already), instead of just ignoring a larger portion of incoming crowd control.

darkdill1 votes

Why can't they get the best of both? Why not tank the hits AND get out of lockdown faster?

Teridax681 votes

Because whatever power you'd dedicate to Tenacity would be better spent on proper tanking, rather than just the devaluation of incoming crowd control. The stat has never been that good for the game, and I personally think it's responsible for inflating a lot of crowd control out there and forcing some degree of knockup creep, so it would likely be better to focus resources on playing around CC while respecting its power instead of reducing it outright.

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