champions that i wonder why build AP instead of AD

Hammermancer·Dec 21, 2018·19 votes·11,326 views

The only thing in her kit remotely magic is her shroud, everything else seems AD

He fucking headbutts you with KNOWLEDGE?

SPIDERS CAN'T READ YO

I mean maybe his amp tomes are on marine biology?

Wut

What part of throwing spears and biting people requires books and wands?

I think that's all of them, anyways most of these champions would probably be more interesting with AD scaling over AP scaling, and with Physical damage over magic damage imho

maybe i'm just an asshat silver turd, but yeah please consider this discussion at least

48 Comments

rtbf221651412Dec 21, 20186 votes

Did you conveniently leave out Nidalee heals and Elise spiders explode?

HammermancerDec 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Did you conveniently leave out heals and spiders explode?

So nids heal can remain AP but get a bit of a buff? And elise's spider is called a toxic one, I can picture a crazy hivemind species having banelings.. wait

rtbf221651412Dec 21, 20182 votes

{quoted}

So nids heal can remain AP but get a bit of a buff? And elise's spider is called a toxic one, I can picture a crazy hivemind species having banelings.. wait

Poison has always been considered magic in games. Not sure why that is new to you.

Am I misunderstanding your second point that seems to be a cut at me?

HammermancerDec 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Poison has always been considered magic in games. Not sure why that is new to you.

Am I misunderstanding your second point that seems to be a cut at me?

it depends on the game.. but in the grandaddy of all our games D&D it was a physical damage type, or at least non magic

and no that was a starcraft joke because elise in my mind is like a zerg type of power source, I always pictured her not having magic but like gross holes that shoot her Q, with those spiders always following her

Jerry SeinfeIdDec 22, 20181 votes

from what i can find poison's damage type is .......... Poison. I know shocker, then let's look at where it comes from mostly.

Most games in my experience have had 2 names for making poisons, alchemy or Herblore. these also give access to magical potions, which exist in league. Most games consider alchemy a magical skill.

Other than that the only option would be poison magic, which is by default magic.

Warlord RhinarkDec 21, 20185 votes

Alistar, Katarina and Nidalee are the only ones that don't make sense.

The rest seem fine.

Akali probably uses some kind of ninja-magic or enchanted weapons (her kama glows).

Elise's spiders are magical in nature due to them being granted to her by the spider god Vilemaw.

Fizz uses water magic.

Changing Alistar to dealing Physical Damage and giving him AD scalings would make taking him Top actually semi-viable. Plus, it would be the perfect excuse to give him back the AD on his ultimate that was removed for some reason.

Katarina should just be changed immediately. Not only does it make the most sense, but she also abuses Hextech Gunblade way too heavily.

The only one I'm kinda skeptical on is Nidalee. Whilst yes, it makes the most sense to make her physical, her Heal on E is still a magical spell, and her itemization would be pretty weird if it was changed to physical.

nightwraith kingDec 21, 201810 votes

First of all Magic can do anything so rules of nature need not apply.

: Hits the ground for his knock up and trample so you could say it is a magic earthquake. The ult could also be stated as some type of defense magic.
: Is vastayian or related to them so you could say that her magic affects everthing she does.
: No knife in the world can bounce between targets like her knives without magic involved. Plus she can have some sort of magic that allows her to create and control magic knives, an ability that would be great for an assassin who wants to get around being searched. Finally her ult has a ton of knives shooting at her enemies so I doubt that she could either carry that many without magic being involved.

Also see the 'why can Teemo blind Lee Sin memes'

Warlord RhinarkDec 22, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=nightwraith king,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qeBQZ8N2,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-12-21T22:13:56.638+0000)

First of all Magic can do anything so rules of nature need not apply.

: Hits the ground for his knock up and trample so you could say it is a magic earthquake. The ult could also be stated as some type of defense magic.

I'd say that's a stretch.

: Is vastayian or related to them so you could say that her magic affects everthing she does.

That's kind of a moot point because Xayah's feathers deal physical damage and Wukong's staff deals physical damage as well.

: No knife in the world can bounce between targets like her knives without magic involved.

Yeah it can.

Katarina just has to be really good at geometry and being able to predict where a knife is going to ricochet off of.

Which makes perfect sense given that she constantly trains herself to be the best Assassin in the entire world.

Plus she can have some sort of magic that allows her to create and control magic knives, an ability that would be great for an assassin who wants to get around being searched.

Yeah, except Katarina is never stated to be a magic user.

Finally her ult has a ton of knives shooting at her enemies so I doubt that she could either carry that many without magic being involved.

Well, how can Caitlyn have some many bullets but no visible ammo packs?

Are you implying that there's also magic involved here somehow?

Look, even if Katarina has magic involved for some odd reason, the knives are still physical objects, and should therefore still deal physical damage.

Also see the 'why can Teemo blind Lee Sin memes'

This isn't the same situation.

Lee Sin being able to be blinded by Teemo makes sense for the purpose of game mechanics. One character shouldn't be treated different from the rest.

But changing someone from dealing magic damage into dealing physical damage isn't the same as a character completely ignoring a game mechanic.

Sexy Jack RabbitDec 22, 20181 votes

Well, how can Caitlyn have some many bullets but no visible ammo packs?

Are you implying that there's also magic involved here somehow?

Look, even if Katarina has magic involved for some odd reason, the knives are still physical objects, and should therefore still deal physical damage.

Caitlyn's rifle is Hextech. Which is LITERALLY a form of magical weaponry. Bad example.

Warlord RhinarkDec 22, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sexy Jack Rabbit,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qeBQZ8N2,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-22T08:52:17.657+0000)

Caitlyn's rifle is Hextech. Which is LITERALLY a form of magical weaponry. Bad example.

Okay, take someone like Miss Fortune then.

It doesn't matter. The point still stands.

Jerry SeinfeIdDec 22, 20181 votes

exactly the point does still stand, MF's guns are hextech. Riot literally used "it's hextech" to explain never reloading and even graves' shotgun is hextech i think.

Warlord RhinarkDec 22, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qeBQZ8N2,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-22T15:09:19.706+0000)

exactly the point does still stand, MF's guns are hextech. Riot literally used "it's hextech" to explain never reloading and even graves' shotgun is hextech i think.

Miss Fortune's guns are not Hextech.

Hextech is (primarily) only found in Piltover, but Shock & Awe were manufactured in Bilgewater.

Jerry SeinfeIdDec 22, 20181 votes

like you said, primarily. Not exclusively. Pretty sure they explained champions ingame not reloading by saying it was hextech in one of the earlier "ask riot"s.

also piltover/zaun has a harbor, bilgewater is 1 big harbor. Zaun has a blackmarket, bilgewater is filled with shady figures. hextech ending up there wouldn't be as weird.

Warlord RhinarkDec 22, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qeBQZ8N2,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-22T16:45:38.102+0000)

like you said, primarily. Not exclusively. Pretty sure they explained champions ingame not reloading by saying it was hextech in one of the earlier "ask riot"s.

also piltover/zaun has a harbor, bilgewater is 1 big harbor. Zaun has a blackmarket, bilgewater is filled with shady figures. hextech ending up there wouldn't be as weird.

It wouldn't be weird, but coupling all the facts together:

Hextech is a rarity in Bilgewater.
Miss Fortune's guns were crafted by her mother, presumably someone from Bilgewater, meaning she probably doesn't have expertise in crafting Hextech technology.
Said guns are never stated to be Hextech anywhere.

...they're probably just normal guns.

And even if they are Hextech, just like I said with Caitlyn, it doesn't matter. The point still stands.

I can just pick someone like Draven. Where does he get all those axes from? And here, you can't use the "it's Hextech" excuse.

Basing Katarina's seemingly endless supply of knives on magic is the same as basing Draven's supply of axes on magic as well.

Genghis KhatDec 22, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qeBQZ8N2,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-12-22T08:02:10.838+0000)

I'd say that's a stretch.

That's kind of a moot point because Xayah's feathers deal physical damage and Wukong's staff deals physical damage as well.

Yeah it can.

Katarina just has to be really good at geometry and being able to predict where a knife is going to ricochet off of.

Which makes perfect sense given that she constantly trains herself to be the best Assassin in the entire world.

Yeah, except Katarina is never stated to be a magic user.

Well, how can Caitlyn have some many bullets but no visible ammo packs?

Are you implying that there's also magic involved here somehow?

Look, even if Katarina has magic involved for some odd reason, the knives are still physical objects, and should therefore still deal physical damage.

This isn't the same situation.

Lee Sin being able to be blinded by Teemo makes sense for the purpose of game mechanics. One character shouldn't be treated different from the rest.

But changing someone from dealing magic damage into dealing physical damage isn't the same as a character completely ignoring a game mechanic.

Don't you think the knife would,,, you know? get stuck (stab in its target) while making slicing sounds :/ + it lands on the ground. idk man thats not how physics work btw whatever ,-,

Warlord RhinarkDec 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Don't you think the knife would,,, you know? get stuck (stab in its target) while making slicing sounds :/ + it lands on the ground. idk man thats not how physics work btw whatever ,-,

I'm sorry, what are you trying to say with this?

Genghis KhatDec 22, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qeBQZ8N2,comment-id=00030000000000010000,timestamp=2018-12-22T21:59:12.468+0000)

I'm sorry, what are you trying to say with this?

Well she throws a knife, it makes slashing sounds, but it bounces off targets instead of getting stuck and cutting the target? If the knife doesn't slash the targets then how can it bounce off in the first place without touching anything. o-o

Warlord RhinarkDec 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Well she throws a knife, it makes slashing sounds, but it bounces off targets instead of getting stuck and cutting the target? If the knife doesn't slash the targets then how can it bounce off in the first place without touching anything. o-o

It can still slash them and hit somebody else in the process?

Genghis KhatDec 23, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qeBQZ8N2,comment-id=0003000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-23T11:15:52.896+0000)

It can still slash them and hit somebody else in the process?

thrown forwards go side ways then forwards? :^D

Warlord RhinarkDec 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

thrown forwards go side ways then forwards? :^D

What are you talking about?

She throws the knife, it hits someone and ergo slashes them, it bounces off, and hits another target.

I don't see the problem.

Genghis KhatDec 23, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qeBQZ8N2,comment-id=000300000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-23T16:24:42.147+0000)

What are you talking about?

She throws the knife, it hits someone and ergo slashes them, it bounces off, and hits another target.

I don't see the problem.

How can something that can slash... Bounce off from flesh... :^/

Warlord RhinarkDec 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

How can something that can slash... Bounce off from flesh... :^/

By slash I don't mean the knife goes several inches into the flesh.

A "slash" can just be a cut.

By Newton's Third Law, the knife just has to be going at very high speeds and the kinetic force it hits the target with, will cause it to bounce off of the target.

Genghis KhatDec 23, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qeBQZ8N2,comment-id=00030000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-23T18:02:25.706+0000)

By slash I don't mean the knife goes several inches into the flesh.

A "slash" can just be a cut.

By Newton's Third Law, the knife just has to be going at very high speeds and the kinetic force it hits the target with, will cause it to bounce off of the target.

not if the knife cuts in flesh. the force has to be inhuman to BOUNCE off flesh :/

Warlord RhinarkDec 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

not if the knife cuts in flesh. the force has to be inhuman to BOUNCE off flesh :/

Use some other word then if it's the "bounce" part that annoys you so much.

Genghis KhatDec 23, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qeBQZ8N2,comment-id=0003000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-23T18:58:30.376+0000)

Use some other word then if it's the "bounce" part that annoys you so much.

But in game it bounces :/ and it even is described as bouncing in its ability text :(

Warlord RhinarkDec 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

But in game it bounces :/ and it even is described as bouncing in its ability text :(

Then I ask again, what's the problem?

######Sidenote: Your excessive emoticons are unwanted.

InfernapeDec 21, 20183 votes

Leona should have AD scalings.

Vlada CutDec 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Leona should have AD scalings.

THIS. Just hope she get's them in her VGU.

InfernapeDec 21, 20181 votes

I honestly want top lane Leona to be viable. Giving her AD scalings (especially bonus AD ones) wouldn't hurt or break support Leona and open her up to be played elsewhere.

Vlada CutDec 21, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I honestly want top lane Leona to be viable. Giving her AD scalings (especially bonus AD ones) wouldn't hurt or break support Leona and open her up to be played elsewhere.

Starting with changing her passive to be suitable on a solo lane or even in jungle.

KrynnˉDec 21, 20182 votes

Balance.

They do it because of balance. Tanks that don't build damage like Maokai, Alistar, Nautlius, etc all do magic damage because if they did physical damage they would do literally no damage at all because of Armour scaling. That's why tanks that play top lane to percent max health magical damage for the most part, so that they are still somewhat relevant damage wise.

For some other champions it's based on what items would FEEL better to build, or what champions would have more reliance on mana or wave clear, prevent them from building certain items that would be generally toxic for their kit, or could make them useless., someone like Elise who does primarily % health damage, she would fall off even harder then she already does if she built AD

AP doesn't mean magic, Warwick builds AD but all of his damage is magic, it's all done for a balance perspective, the nature of ones kit does not determine which stat they will scale from.

DenevielDec 22, 20182 votes

... guys it's a themic analysis not a gaming one ....

He is saying: Why RIOT created those champ that thematically build AP instead of AD?

Aka trows dagger and shuriken still build magic items, same for kata.

Ali it's a minotaur which charges at you and still build like a mage

Bth Fizz and Nida use a weapon that require physical strength and not magic ability.

Elise it's the only arguable, since she, pretty much, can be seen as a mage changing her shape

HammermancerDec 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

... guys it's a themic analysis not a gaming one ....

He say why RIOT created those champ that thematically build AP instead of AD.

Aka trows dagger and shuriken still build magic items, same for kata.

Ali it's a minotaur which charges at you and still build like a mage

Fizz, Nida use a weapons that require physical strength and not magic ability.

Elise it's the only arguable, since she, pretty much, can be seen as a mage changing her shape

someone gets it

3TWarriorDec 22, 20182 votes

if you want the literal reason, it's because the system used to be based on AD only affecting auto attacks and AP affecting all abilities

Cats Are FoodDec 23, 20181 votes

Except Ryze. Ryze could originally toggle his auto attacks to do magic damage which was QQOPZORS

Death by GlamourDec 22, 20181 votes

Alistar got alot of his old aa resets nerfed after the lightning cow (tri force statik shiv) seen play in lcs.

Likely a bruiser alistar with triforce hydra would still work

BlåbæretDec 22, 20181 votes

There's already more than enough AD champions in this game. So noty.

Jackin ur lawnDec 22, 20181 votes

Well lol, Akali & Katarina both profit the best healing from hextechblade and their damage lies more so in their skills or lich bane empowered autos (which also brings in fizz and nid) and (minus nid but keep fizz maybe bring in elise) they combo very well with Zhonyas. All of them need mana sustain (even if ur cougar nid her other form skills are just super costly). I've seen people build AD on Ali more than AP tho tbh, it's just his stun is AP and his stun hurts with barely any items so with a little more ap its a big ouch. Plus alot of the AD items require constant auto attacking and alot of those champions would just...die if they played more on their autos than skills.

iPooUnicornsDec 22, 20181 votes

If you really want to get into this:

AP != Magical AD != Physical

AP = Ability Power AD = Attack Damage

Originally, AD only increased damage of auto attacks, and ability power only increased the damage of abilities, hence the names.

AngelFrost00Dec 22, 20181 votes

AD Nidalee was a thing before...

ThefrostyvikingDec 22, 20181 votes

OP you gotta consider Nida conjures up a bunch of spears from somewhere....

Elise also magically calls forth spiders constantly, and her Q is poison/venom which generally counts as nonphysical damage if looking at Teemo/cassio.

Did i mention that both of them shapeshift? And nida even heals?

But come to think off it doesnt nida tiger form abilities scale with both AD and AP?

tehechounpolvazoDec 22, 20181 votes

Gragas Buys books on new beers and ways to get into tavern brawls.

Beast BrawlerDec 22, 20181 votes

Yeah I'm all for Alistar being AD, I never understood why he was AP as he's a bigass Minotaur that headbutts you and SLAMS.

Genghis KhatDec 22, 20181 votes

Katarina Carries around 425545234 (probably more in urf) knives sounds like magic to me :/ + knife stabbing 3 targets then landing on the ground without getting stuck. Making a knife jump out of her on will (W) without using her hands or anything. also her shunpo is magic af its not a fast dash as seen in cinematics, its pretty much a warp hole ,-,

Also AD kat is viable if you go gunblade( can be substituted for duskblade first item but then kat is ALOT weaker) And just buy stattik shiv, duskblade, stormrazor for E+AA to do instant burst damage but then your abilities do low af damage but still something. I only do this when the game is obvious memes like 20/0 team score.

Inkling CommandoDec 22, 20181 votes

Tristana most of her kit is AP making her viable for AP build but her main power, her E I think, is a mix of both AD and AP.

ŚhunpoDec 23, 20181 votes

Katarina : "BUT MAGIC DAGGERS AND STUFF!"

Cats Are FoodDec 23, 20181 votes

Mordekaiser - My Q can literally one shot people, the Ghost from my ult gets MASSIVE AD bonuses based off my AD, and my E scales off AD as well. But, hey, Imma mage apparently.