Way to royally fuck over non-mobility champions ... AGAIN.

U4fyn2vZzW··110 votes·5,481 views

I honestly don't understand what's going on with your balance team and their incapability to realize that J4, Lee, Vi etc need nerf's exclusively for them. Nerfing a fucking item that is only an icing on the cake to them isn't going to reduce their power at all. Why the hell should a Lee or Vi main care about a range nerf on an item that only enhances their already braindead ganks when they have gap closers that can use that allow them to travel at the speed of light millions of miles away?

Why is it so hard for you guys just to nerf the junglers that are molesting other jungles? Or buff the lesser junglers up to par with the top tier junglers? I'm tired of having to pick one of Lee Sin, Vi, J4, Fiddlesticks, Rek'Sai every game if one of these champions are picked.

Holy shit, every time you guys release a new patch I think it's the final nail in the coffin for your stupidity but I'm proven wrong over and over. What's next a nerf to how much movement speed boots of speed grant? I would call you guys are circus, but I'm skeptical if you can even differentiate up from clown.

58 Comments

Loerka35 votes

Balance is a joke this season. Have you seen the ¨buff¨ for Morde and Veigar on the PBE ? Riot balance team busy smoking crack i guess

cFlame12 votes

Riot won't care that we complain. They will go with the changes anyway. They will destroy anything and everything that poses a threat to the mobility creep meta they desire. There is no way to stop the idiotic 'solutions' they come up with.

lojician23 votes

Riot's current balance team isn't even trying to hide that they balance according to their biases towards favored classes/champions and flashy lc$ plays.

Kalista was the most blatant FU I've ever seen to their previous design principles.

KaisadiIIa5 votes

Yasuo says hi.

Apparently RIOT needs every new champion to have dashes every 0.1 sec.

Auz the Ripper2 votes

At least his "FOOKKKA YUUU" skills have cooldowns, at the very least against the same target Kalista doesn't

A Tall Joke2 votes

Hey, now Veigar can beat OTHER non-mobility champions! See? There's balance for non-mobile champions.

Reazale7 votes

Emmm not , most ppl will be able to move in or out of the cage if they are playing the game at the time of the cast :D, that means , most non-mobile mages will take dmg from only 2 of his skills , and one of those got its ratio nerfed xD

Auz the Ripper2 votes

Methinks Doom was being touch sarcastic

Not that you can really tell on the internet without a /s

43161549_DEL2 votes

Have you played the new veigar on PBE? it adds interesting counterplay with his stun now. not only that but his q is a lux q minus the CC so I mean...wtf you smoking? instead of only getting ONE ap per q you can get TWO

Auz the Ripper1 votes

That's a 100% increase in AP gain! Tu Stronk!

Thryale1 votes

veigar main here, and I'd much rather riot leave veig as is than give him these changes. I hate unreliable champs.

ComeOnAndSlamJam27 votes

End Lee Sin 2k15

Cowgirl Ed14 votes

The worst problem is they know all of this, but let's be honest: money > us. :c

Sammystorm7 votes

people who approve of what is going on are not likely to come to the forums and complain. However if they were to nerf everyone that is bitched about in this thread we would have people coming out of the wood works complaining about those nerfs. Basically, People on this forum do not represent the entire population of league. I for one really like the balance this season

tritrium10 votes

{quoted}

people who approve of what is going on are not likely to come to the forums and complain. However if they were to nerf everyone that is bitched about in this thread we would have people coming out of the wood works complaining about those nerfs. Basically, People on this forum do not represent the entire population of league. I for one really like the balance this season

Well i guess you like to play overloaded mobility champs I for one, havent been able to play my favorite champs for over a year now without getting fucked over on a regular basis whilst getting reported & flamed to hell. in the meantime im practically forced to play these overloaded shitchamps i wish were never in this game or face the above. But instead of nerfing, buff the rest already, everyone happy. except maybe the overloaded kit fans, since they wouldnt be able to dominate the game anymore.

Sammystorm7 votes

I actually like playing primarily anivia and sejuani. If you are good enough at a champion you can be successful regardless of how they are perceived in the community. If you are willing to put the effort into being successful at them that is. People pick champs for a veriaty of reasons but not even the majority of people think that they are "overloaded" or "shitchampions". A small vocal minority likes to bitch on these forums making people assume that their is wide spread aggrement on the issue when actually there isn't

Also buffing everybody causes way more problems then it actually fixes. I will point you to a video; [(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai6oMY4U0Yw)]

tritrium7 votes

{quoted}

I actually like playing primarily anivia and sejuani. If you are good enough at a champion you can be successful regardless of how they are perceived in the community. If you are willing to put the effort into being successful at them that is. People pick champs for a veriaty of reasons but not even the majority of people think that they are "overloaded" or "shitchampions". A small vocal minority likes to bitch on these forums making people assume that their is wide spread aggrement on the issue when actually there isn't

Also buffing everybody causes way more problems then it actually fixes. I will point you to a video; [(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai6oMY4U0Yw)]

Right, watched 5 seconds of the video and i see where this going: Pure simply said in a pro competive level players will pick & play whatever has the highest chance of winning the game. In league however you also have to keep in mind the synergy, team & various other factors. However when that metagame is dominated consistently by the same core champions then there is a problem Then your perfect imbalance goes out the window.

Sure buffing everything isnt a solution at all anway it was more a matter of speaking because im tired of it then anythings else. And i said shitchampions because i find them shit and not fun to play at all but thats my opinion. if you honestly think stuff like Thresh, kalista, lee, zed & whatnot doesnt have an overloaded kit compared to the other champions then i dont know what to say. the video you linked basically says what people have been saying on here for a while, nerf dominant champions simple.

Thats because the majority of the people that play this game dont care about this at all and just wanna play the game. Thats also why this minority is really important because without it u get zero feedback from your playerbase. Sitting there being all condescending about outcries is easy but pretty needless and lame. Thing is with outcries on forums, as a game developer, you need to take it with a grain of salt but if theres tons of threads about the same issues going on & on about it then thats usually an indication theres a problem.(i know this first hand) Or did u forget about all the outcries PBE related on azir release? and many more champions for that matter. It gets ignored and well, the rest is history. Also people usually do outcries on forums because they really care about the game and thats basically the only way to get noticed.

Community's perception on something does matter in this game in particular for a very simple reason: They report you and you get a warning, do it a few more times and you get a chat ban. Just before u say 'you dont get chat bans for no reason etc..' Its like with the AP varus thing i did a long while ago when i actually got banned for a day and got shown my 'cases' of games with AP varus where the reasons stated where 'trollpick' 'ruining our game' Even tho in all of the games i did by far the most damage & had the most kills on top of it. But the overwhelming majority decided i was part of the most toxic players in this game. Thats some community perception right there.

But either way (to be condenscending here) im pretty sure no matter what i say here you dont take me seriously at all anyway because you found a video about game balancing and obviously im one of the outcrying people on the forums that doesnt know what hes talking about. But you cearly do. The only thing you can say is that my previous post was merely a reaction as a fan rather then a constructive post with arguments. But you know theres that I also always love posts like yours tossing out imaginary numbers based on assumptions.(or you know maybe you actually do know everyone that plays this game, i dont know) I didnt even once stated the whole entire playerbase shares my opinion.(assumptions assumptions) You only need a set of eyes and maybe some really thick glasses to see the same champions are played over & over again.

Obvious ridicilous example: If they would give mundo a basehealth of 1500 make his basic attacks hit for 200 true dmg each hit and a passive with 50% arm pen then you would see mundo picked/banned every game its pretty obvious.

You need to strive for perfect imbalance in games like this or otherwise you get what league is today: minor metashifts but at the core still the same. What i also think is happening right now is basically major game changes but not enough resources to actually coop with it and adress the issues whilst going trough with it. Or you know, maybe theyre actually legit 100% happy with the stale meta and are all in on the LCS flashy plays as people say IDK i cant say. Maybe in the future we dont even have to farm creeps anymore and then we can just hit eachother for 10 mins and see who w.. wait a minute theres already a moba like that out there and that is pretty damn boring & simplistic but again, thats just my opinion of course.

well enough typing for today cheers

TL DR; I dont know what im talking about

Sammystorm1 votes
  1. His argument was more buffing champions takes a lot more resources and ends in a endless cycle of buffs. The meta game is dominated by core champions because people play this game seriously now. Whenever a game gets big enough for people to play competitively a meta game of what is best develops. This is normal and consistent with every popular game.

  2. It entirely depends on your definition of overloaded. You use it to mean they have a lot of things they can do well. However I would also argue champs that are super binary are also overloaded and more problematic. Veigar for example I would say has a kit overloaded with burst. I would however rather play against a lee sin because I have many instances where I can counter what he is doing. Veigar I have at most 2 instances. Dodging his stun or breaking his stun with an item or summoner.

  3. Making a statement like "the majority of players just want to play the game" is a huge mis-representation. I won't pretend to know the actual stats but I do know enough about basic statistics to know that the majority of people complaining are not indicative of the majority of the league population. I would actually have to have numbers and a good survey to figure out what the community actually wants and I willing to bet Riot uses stats to figure out a lot of marketing techniques to make their game more successful.

  4. Absolutely. You are 100% correct here. However the prerogative is on us as a community to change how we treat people that don't follow the meta verbatim.

  5. I am sorry that I came across condescending and that I came across as a "better then you" tone. I think everyone has a responsibility to discuss and critique the game and your post did have some well thought out ideas. It however did come across as making assumptions on what the community as a whole wanted not what you personally wanted. So I would ask that you phrase things in a way that don't come across as assumptions and I will do my best to do the same. Also I see a few picks that are seen almost every game and those picks probably need to be looked at. However I also see a large number of auxiliary picks that are only seen a few times and are centered around a specific team comp. On a side note: since taking a poll on what every one in league thinks is impossible it is a better to use a small manageable random sample that you could use to draw conclusions about the entire population.

  6. Perfect balance will never happen. There will always be a best champion for roles.

kunkudunk2 votes

While I'm usually ok with them not buffing stuff, many junglers are simpy to low in health while clearing to the gank and they die if invaded. They are totally viable if they aren't invaded as they have great team fights, but other than that they struggle. If they just improved the hp regen or base armor of the champs, then they could survive the jungle. Not that extreme of buffs as is, and many tanky champs don't even feel tanky till their third item anyway so this could help that be less extreme.

Sammystorm1 votes

you people keep saying that but this hasn't been my experience. I have found a lot of the champions with great team fight also have a better clear then single target junglers like lee. I have also found that their are less invades over all because of how much the jungle kicks your ass.

kunkudunk1 votes

They have faster clears, not better clears. Sej and amumu clear fast but they run really low on health as the do it. There are ways to get around this somewhat (always smiting red) but generally they end up with less health than say Vi or lee. Natilus is the main exception to this in a backwards way. His shield actually keeps him healthy while clearing but he is really week to invades since his movement speed is really low and he can't out duel the likes of vi or J4 or lee. Also they can just watch him as he fights and then attack him when his shield is down and on cd.

Sammystorm1 votes

I usually take 9 points in utility to give me biscuits and with the biscuit I can come out ahead of the enemy jungle rin terms of hp. I also could clear blue and red + 2 ish other camps.

kunkudunk1 votes

biscuits give 20 more health, is it worth it? I mean are you running ad or as reds or something to clear faster as well?

Sammystorm1 votes

as reds. However I haven't really modernized my jungling rune pages. I haven't up dated them since season 2

tritrium3 votes

{quoted}

  1. His argument was more buffing champions takes a lot more resources and ends in a endless cycle of buffs. The meta game is dominated by core champions because people play this game seriously now. Whenever a game gets big enough for people to play competitively a meta game of what is best develops. This is normal and consistent with every popular game.

  2. It entirely depends on your definition of overloaded. You use it to mean they have a lot of things they can do well. However I would also argue champs that are super binary are also overloaded and more problematic. Veigar for example I would say has a kit overloaded with burst. I would however rather play against a lee sin because I have many instances where I can counter what he is doing. Veigar I have at most 2 instances. Dodging his stun or breaking his stun with an item or summoner.

  3. Making a statement like "the majority of players just want to play the game" is a huge mis-representation. I won't pretend to know the actual stats but I do know enough about basic statistics to know that the majority of people complaining are not indicative of the majority of the league population. I would actually have to have numbers and a good survey to figure out what the community actually wants and I willing to bet Riot uses stats to figure out a lot of marketing techniques to make their game more successful.

  4. Absolutely. You are 100% correct here. However the prerogative is on us as a community to change how we treat people that don't follow the meta verbatim.

  5. I am sorry that I came across condescending and that I came across as a "better then you" tone. I think everyone has a responsibility to discuss and critique the game and your post did have some well thought out ideas. It however did come across as making assumptions on what the community as a whole wanted not what you personally wanted. So I would ask that you phrase things in a way that don't come across as assumptions and I will do my best to do the same. Also I see a few picks that are seen almost every game and those picks probably need to be looked at. However I also see a large number of auxiliary picks that are only seen a few times and are centered around a specific team comp. On a side note: since taking a poll on what every one in league thinks is impossible it is a better to use a small manageable random sample that you could use to draw conclusions about the entire population.

  6. Perfect balance will never happen. There will always be a best champion for roles.

well i can see that, but the thing about the metagame isnt right. That theres gonna be a metagame is normal i agree, what isnt normal is that its dominated by the same champions for a very long time. Normally you get player influence in a meta where as: player A comes up with something new, does really well with it vs the established meta and then player B comes up with a solution to that. In a normal situation things snowball in different directions from there. Unless

The established meta champions are better at practically all those things so step 1 isnt nessecary anymore. (remember old kassadin? even tho i still think hes really strong atm, he isnt what he used to be) The fact that the "biggest" meta changes come with the preseason patch tells me it has alot to do with the game itself as well rather then only the champions. Although the fact that the core metachamps seem to be more or less unaffected by this is another indicator of 'being too good at everything' I can get what you say about veigar and whilst im at it, i dont personally have much problems with playing against a lee either. But that doesnt take away that hes been top tier for a very long time and that has more to do with his kit then anything else. (overloaded, is pretty good at everything)

You cant say that about veigar, you can say his stun = zero counterplay and i agree with that but at the same time hes rarely played because he has obvious weaknesses: -Immobile -easy to gank -needs to stack -very squishy -Single target -Needs a few items Those are just a few i can think of. Dont take this sentence literally but thats the kind of stuff a lot of the newer champions are lacking. And quite often riot nerfs them really hard without adressing the actual issue. With overloaded kits i mean: -Too good at everything with having little to no obvious weaknesses.

Well i dont have the numbers for riot either. I can only go off my 9 years experience working for a game developer, even tho we make RPG's down there, the great majority of our players isnt bothered with going on forums because they buy the game to have fun and enjoy the game. And the numbers there show its only a small percentage of the players that actually goes on the forums to discuss things game related. Those numbers tend to increase a little when people experience something negative in the game but also decrease when that isnt the case. The regular numbers stay more or less the same and this applied to all the titles we had. So in a game like this where every season theres major changes and sometimes big patches troughout the season i can only think that it isnt too different from what i've seen troughout the years. I think the biggest difference would be that you get reactions a lot quicker & harsher because patches in this game tend to have a direct impact on almost everyone's gameplay.

I dont mean this as a generalization but im not making this stuff up either: Unfortunately the average age of the league player is apparently 15-17 years old, where studies have shown that at that age you lack development of an important part of your brain called the prefrontal cortex loads of information about that out there, which is directly related to a number of skills you need in any area.(not gonna list them all here, if u want to know search for it) Altho those studies are still open for debate, the general conscensus is that it is directly responsible for all those things, even tho it hasnt been 100% proven to be. I can only say, think back to the time u were a teenager, im pretty sure u did some really stupid things as well :)

i hope i did that with this post then Your always gonna see oddball picks no matter what, its just the stale meta & the lack of point 1 & 2 to create incentive(? not sure if thats the right word) for players to break the meta succesfully & consistently. I also think the current LCS has a very strong but negative impact on the game, whilst it could have a very positive impact instead.

Thats not what i said, i said 'perfect imbalance' otherwise the game would be really stale and eventually really boring. In a way you could say the game is really balanced atm but around a very small champion pool, so no, not really. The key to break this remains the same, you need to have point 1&2 present and then the problem will solve itself.

TL DR; Lack of incentive & core meta champs being too good at everything result in a stale meta. and a bunch of other stuff u probably dont care about if u scrolled down to the TLDR :)

Sammystorm1 votes

1. well i can see that, but the thing about the metagame isnt right. That theres gonna be a metagame is normal i agree, what isnt normal is that its dominated by the same champions for a very long time. Normally you get player influence in a meta where as: player A comes up with something new, does really well with it vs the established meta and then player B comes up with a solution to that. In a normal situation things snowball in different directions from there. Unless

Well lets think for a minute on what champions have consistently been good through multiple seasons. Lee Sin is really the only one I can think about. The meta usually changes significantly making othher wise good champions weak picks because of what is being played. An example is mundo and the current mana changes. Almost every mid goes morellonomicon now making mundo significantly weaker. I would argue that as a whole the meta is defined by the people playing it and riot responds with nerfs to whatever they think is overbearing which then people change the meta again. This can be seen in solo queue where people in bronze are usually playing 2-3 patchs behind where as someone in plat might be only 1 patch behind. The one exception to riot responding to metas is the pre-season where riot proactively tries to shape the entire season for a common goal.

**2. The established meta champions are better at practically all those things so step 1 isnt nessecary anymore. (remember old kassadin? even tho i still think hes really strong atm, he isnt what he used to be) The fact that the "biggest" meta changes come with the preseason patch tells me it has alot to do with the game itself as well rather then only the champions. Although the fact that the core metachamps seem to be more or less unaffected by this is another indicator of 'being too good at everything' I can get what you say about veigar and whilst im at it, i dont personally have much problems with playing against a lee either. But that doesnt take away that hes been top tier for a very long time and that has more to do with his kit then anything else. (overloaded, is pretty good at everything)

You cant say that about veigar, you can say his stun = zero counterplay and i agree with that but at the same time hes rarely played because he has obvious weaknesses: -Immobile -easy to gank -needs to stack -very squishy -Single target -Needs a few items Those are just a few i can think of. Dont take this sentence literally but thats the kind of stuff a lot of the newer champions are lacking. And quite often riot nerfs them really hard without adressing the actual issue. With overloaded kits i mean: -Too good at everything with having little to no obvious weaknesses.** I personally believe that Riot uses the pre-season to set the tone for the entire season which I think is a good thing. It gives you a year of roughly the same content but the promise of it changing the next year if you don't like it. This method has also been proven to be very effective as can be seen in the card game Magic. I won't really touch into balance because I personally believe it is very subjective most of the time.

3. Well i dont have the numbers for riot either. I can only go off my 9 years experience working for a game developer, even tho we make RPG's down there, the great majority of our players isnt bothered with going on forums because they buy the game to have fun and enjoy the game. And the numbers there show its only a small percentage of the players that actually goes on the forums to discuss things game related. Those numbers tend to increase a little when people experience something negative in the game but also decrease when that isnt the case. The regular numbers stay more or less the same and this applied to all the titles we had. So in a game like this where every season theres major changes and sometimes big patches troughout the season i can only think that it isnt too different from what i've seen troughout the years. I think the biggest difference would be that you get reactions a lot quicker & harsher because patches in this game tend to have a direct impact on almost everyone's gameplay.

You are correct I made an error in my reasoning. That is a fair assumption to make.

4. I dont mean this as a generalization but im not making this stuff up either: Unfortunately the average age of the league player is apparently 15-17 years old, where studies have shown that at that age you lack development of an important part of your brain called the prefrontal cortex loads of information about that out there, which is directly related to a number of skills you need in any area.(not gonna list them all here, if u want to know search for it) Altho those studies are still open for debate, the general conscensus is that it is directly responsible for all those things, even tho it hasnt been 100% proven to be. I can only say, think back to the time u were a teenager, im pretty sure u did some really stupid things as well :)

Just because teenagers are prone to be stupid it doesn't mean we can't hold them to high standards and try to make an extraordinary community instead of one that is known for how bad it can be.

5. i hope i did that with this post then Your always gonna see oddball picks no matter what, its just the stale meta & the lack of point 1 & 2 to create incentive(? not sure if thats the right word) for players to break the meta succesfully & consistently. I also think the current LCS has a very strong but negative impact on the game, whilst it could have a very positive impact instead. The meta being stale is completely subjective and you are entitled to that opinion. I personally think that the lcs has a very positive effect on the game. Riot does need to make incentives I agree there. However unlike you I believe they do.

6. Thats not what i said, i said 'perfect imbalance' otherwise the game would be really stale and eventually really boring. In a way you could say the game is really balanced atm but around a very small champion pool, so no, not really. The key to break this remains the same, you need to have point 1&2 present and then the problem will solve itself.

I don't necessarily think point 1 and 2 are problems. I also don't think it is balanced around a small set of champs. I believe that riot does a good job of balancing the majority of champs most of the time.

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a391 votes

{quoted}

Your points are subjective. Mine are facts. I don't think there are problems. I believe Riot does a good job.

There you go a TL;DR. You barely gave supporting reasons for your points. What's the point of spilling out opinions you didn't really try to prove?

Sammystorm1 votes

Well considering just about everything that I was replying to was subjective means I can't accurately dispute it because my opinions are just as much based on personal preference as his/hers was.

KaisadiIIa1 votes

It's a sad day for all of us who enjoy playing Anivia.

Sammystorm1 votes

why?

Kalarepa5 votes

Idk how about others, but personally I hate playing super mobile champions. And if eventually LoL comes to the point, where everyone has 2 dashes and knock up, I'll just quit and look for different moba.

O Fallen Scholar4 votes

{quoted}

Idk how about others, but personally I hate playing super mobile champions. And if eventually LoL comes to the point, where everyone has 2 dashes and knock up, I'll just quit and look for different moba.

You should start looking now.

blueberrypancake1 votes

HotS and DotA are great places to start looking. Don't play strife tho. There is literally a Riven rip-off in that game.

DaFinishGame1 votes

Definitely gonna do that too if they don't come up changing things like.. RIGHT NOW

KaisadiIIa2 votes

#LC$BIGPLAY$

Migrañaboy1 votes

{quoted}

The worst problem is they know all of this, but let's be honest: money > us. :c

If you are the forum's vocal 10% against the 90%, there's your answer- :^)

Maximum Ao Shin8 votes

up from clown

9.7/10

LP Duck Squad4 votes

Alot of people argue that lee takes massive skill to "Play", but let's be honest, that isn't true. You land one skillshot and win every duel afterwards. He may be hard to master with his mechanics but his simple ganks are just plain braindead at time.

KaisadiIIa2 votes

I'm a Lee Sin hater, and long time ago I decided to play him until I were good with him and that's what I can say: Lee Sin isn't a easy champion, but isn't a hard champion neither. Once you start controlling the basics, his power is too abusive that you can do whatever you want and look like a pro without any skill. After 3-4 games I was able to carry games and get fed as Lee Sin even when I wasn't know what I was doing.

I can say the problem with Lee is that he has too much free power that he shouldn't, for example in his R: It is supposed to be strong control ability which first function is to reposition an enemy. But an ability like that offers ~1.2 duration knock-up (just compare his R to Tristana's, which does the same but much faster). Also that R deals 600 +200% AD late game so you can execute carries when they have 700-800 HP, that's totally insane. He has also two TRUE VISION abilities, 25% life steal and spell vamp, %health damage, natural tankyness, two dashes...

SKUHUNTER2 votes

Well they gona do this until tehy start to lose players so much and so fast, but then is gona be late they have 2 big rivals alredy i played smite and dota and i can tell just to wait smite gona be beter game then this becouse evry thing is skill shot no just click and kill abilitys

Dagna2 votes

I played smite for a bit and it was fun. However, you cannot say smite is better because they do not have any point click abilities... The game is played in a third person shooter perspective. By that fact alone you are locked out of "point and click" abilities as a developer. If a player likes playing MOBAs in 3rd person, then nothing Riot does will convince that player that LoL is a "better" game.

Kowe The Ewok2 votes

Amen.

This topic holds so much truth... It's just sad that Riot's balancing team.... I should stop typing I am just so frustrated by basically anythign the have done ever since preseason started. It makes me wonder wether they actually play the game... Or well, maybe they do - but only play Fotm and blatantly ignore the balancing of the 105 champiosn which are not picked each time at #LCS. And if they do give them attention they manage to completely screw it up and nerf what should've been a buff....

I mean SERIOUSLY they nerfed Rammus at the day the new jungle was introduced, WITHOUT TESTING how he performs. Sorry, but that's like car company not testing their new brakes before introducing them into a car. And this is just oen example of how horrible balancing has been recently.

KaisadiIIa1 votes

They don't need to buff non-played junglers, they need to nerf Lee Sin and Vi. Junglers like Sejuani are healthy, they have good ganks that depend on their own skill and can be countered if you have map awareness and you don't suck at dodging. Meanwhile, Vi and Lee Sin have frustrating ganks where they can reach you from nowhere (Vi can just Q and targeted R you with no counterplay, and Lee can dash to a ward placed near you to Q you easily).

That's the main problem: If Sejuani uses his Q to appear near you, she has no longer a gapcloser, but Vi can use her Q to appear near you and then use R to gapclose, Lee the same with W + Q. And despite being obviously more powerful at ganking, they are also more powerful at farming. And Lee doesn't even use mana.

Vistha Kai1 votes

JarvanIV Dunk Prince is the same kind of guy Vi is.

Fnz1 votes

As a Lee Sin main this is really annoying to hear. There are other braindead super snowball champs in this game but they want to focus on lee because he has become the face of jungle champs in league,,,hence why riot is refusing to touch him. If you all keep begging for Lee nerfs and "Balance" I can tell you excactly whats going to happen. Riot nerfs lee, People say "OMG Lee cant be used anymore", Riot buffs another jungler perhaps reksai or jarvan, Now you have a new face of the jungle and extremely strong jungler. Then it is just rinse and repeat all over again, so just stop complaining about lee sin its becoming quite pointless.And if you dont believe me look at fizz. They nerfed fizz and to compensate for it they buffed ahri the very next patch. Now you have a new mid lane representative.

Celeste Benal1 votes

Ahri has counterplay, like dodging her skillshots. Fizz just facerolled the keyboard and got kills without ever dying. The ease with which he could just delete champs and never get caught was ridiculous. Now he can't delete champs so easily. So he is no longer picked as much. But he is still a threat. Just like Ahri.

Fnz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Celeste Benal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qcmpPGw9,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2015-02-16T19:22:54.789+0000)

Ahri has counterplay, like dodging her skillshots. Fizz just facerolled the keyboard and got kills without ever dying. The ease with which he could just delete champs and never get caught was ridiculous. Now he can't delete champs so easily. So he is no longer picked as much. But he is still a threat. Just like Ahri.

And lee sin's counter play is dodging his skillshots as well

Rivvy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tell Me Who,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qcmpPGw9,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2015-02-16T15:25:11.594+0000)

As a Lee Sin main this is really annoying to hear. There are other braindead super snowball champs in this game but they want to focus on lee because he has become the face of jungle champs in league,,,hence why riot is refusing to touch him. If you all keep begging for Lee nerfs and "Balance" I can tell you excactly whats going to happen. Riot nerfs lee, People say "OMG Lee cant be used anymore", Riot buffs another jungler perhaps reksai or jarvan, Now you have a new face of the jungle and extremely strong jungler. Then it is just rinse and repeat all over again, so just stop complaining about lee sin its becoming quite pointless.And if you dont believe me look at fizz. They nerfed fizz and to compensate for it they buffed ahri the very next patch. Now you have a new mid lane representative.

I checked your match history, You're more of a jungle Fizz main than a Lee Sin main, kthnxbai.

Fnz1 votes

{quoted}

I checked your match history, You're more of a jungle Fizz main than a Lee Sin main, kthnxbai.

Clearly you cant count nor do you know me lol. I am a lee sin main I picked up fizz recently due to his strong jungling capabilities btw isnt this post 2 months old?

Vistha Kai1 votes

Balance team? Zed *"Balance is a fool's master." *

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