Ferocity gets 5% increased damage, Resolve gets...8 Mr/Armor when near turrets

Malicious Metal·Oct 20, 2016·134 votes·6,248 views

Seriously?

That's it? Come on Riot, give us something decent so that tanky champions actually WANT to invest into Resolve. Give us some multiplicative scalings and such

134 Comments

RalanrOct 20, 201660 votes

When near turrets?

Oh that's gonna be helpful late.

Malicious MetalOct 20, 201643 votes

Seriously, do I REALLY have to go into Cunning and Ferocity on Morde?

You get about 20% damage increase in those trees, where are multiplicative durability stats? Holy cow, 8 MR/Armor and FLAT 45 health, totally worth it, right?

RalanrOct 20, 201619 votes

Tots worth it bro! Cause we tanky champions love small numbers!

Malicious MetalOct 20, 201617 votes

Well, maybe Riot is trying to tell us that we don't need to overcompensate with large numbers and percentage increases, right? :^)

TequilaZombieOct 20, 201613 votes

Well, if your number is not big already percentage increases won't do much.

Malicious MetalOct 20, 20167 votes

Ouch...

Apply item 3116 to that burn

TequilaZombieOct 20, 20166 votes

Is this the reason why Rylais is core to Morde? Damn, we learn new things every day!

Malicious MetalOct 20, 201610 votes

And item 3053 is my oven Mitten so that I can avoid getting burned altogether :^)

WoonStruckOct 20, 20162 votes

Doesn't protect use from the anal pounding that will likely be the Rylai's changes. :c

Malicious MetalOct 20, 201610 votes

Screw it, if it gets dumpstered I'll build item 3078 item 3053 for 780 sheen procs >:/

l Helios lOct 20, 20161 votes

? Using abilities the damage increase would be +2% from sorcery, +3% DES, + 5% Bounty Hunter at max stacks (the one for unique kills), 2% from assassin + 5% from Executioner. That's Only 17% Bonus damage on abilities for targets below 40% and requires you to kill everyone on their team at least once.

Correct me if my math is wrong, but I'm not following you friend.

Edit: NVM, I see the new masteries now.

TequilaZombieOct 20, 20166 votes

17% is about 20% when rounded. So yeah, he's kinda right.

Tank masteries suck.

l Helios lOct 20, 20162 votes

If you round sure, but that doesn't magically make it do 20%. My point is that he's missing 7% more damage. I'm not disagreeing that tank masteries are bad; they are. But factually, assuming my math is right, that statement concerning damage increase in the other two trees is simply false.

TequilaZombieOct 20, 20164 votes

It's missing 3% damage. He's 85% correct. Figures of speech and such.

Math aside, his point is correct. Offensive stats scale with itself, while tank stats only get flat bonuses (appart from the small scaling MR/Armor at the beggining of the tree). It makes investing in the resolve tree pretty inneficient.

Sire HippingtonOct 21, 20162 votes

Even worse, it's only near allied turrets....

MonkeyMadnessOct 20, 201620 votes

Community: Rito, tanks are getting blown up.

Rito: Right, so let's add some more damage to take care of those pesky damage dealers.

Community: But...

Rito: It's done. More damage, less tank, should work itself out in no time.

RalanrOct 20, 201618 votes

Rito logic at its finest.

KarbuncleOct 21, 20162 votes

Riot doesn't want tanks to live long,it was one of the many stupid things they did to make game times shorter. Baron buff means win,First tower gold etc.

MonkeyMadnessOct 21, 20161 votes

but then more than half the champs/items become totally un-viable...is this really what's best for the game? That's rhetorical, of course, but the answer is still obviously "no".

KarbuncleOct 22, 20162 votes

Riots knows( I think) Riot doesn't care,they're fine with the same 40+ champs they make op being picked that look cool on screen. Many mages wouldn't have been nerfed if they weren't stopping Zed's LCS big plays,Mercurial was nerfed cause it stopped his LCS big plays,Zhonyas was nerfed cause it stopped his LCS big Plays.Lee Sin isn't seen in like half a patch so they buff him,cause his kit is LCS big plays.

Swiftstrike4Oct 20, 201616 votes

The reason tank masteries are pretty bad is because they don't want non tanks going into those trees and still dealing a lot of damage while being semi-tanky.

They are terrible though. The resolve tree is by far the weakest of the 3 trees with the damage tree being good pretty much on any champion.

Duke AnaxOct 20, 20166 votes

Some Persentage values would solve that. You only get bigger number when you already have big numbers.

Critmaster GarenOct 20, 201642 votes

{quoted}

The reason tank masteries are pretty bad is because they don't want non tanks going into those trees and still dealing a lot of damage while being semi-tanky.

They are terrible though. The resolve tree is by far the weakest of the 3 trees with the damage tree being good pretty much on any champion.

you know what would fix that?

% based defense increases

putting low flat defensive stats into the tree makes it exactly more attractive for non tanky champs than tanky champs.

where is adaptive armor?

where is the % health increase on veteran scars?

where is the 10% crit damage and 4% aoe damage reduction?

LovelleOct 21, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qbpE9i9i,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2016-10-20T22:20:04.827+0000)

you know what would fix that?

% based defense increases

putting low flat defensive stats into the tree makes it exactly more attractive for non tanky champs than tanky champs.

where is adaptive armor?

where is the % health increase on veteran scars?

where is the 10% crit damage and 4% aoe damage reduction?

I totally forgot about these two. They used to be SO good.

Need Gold 4 TentOct 21, 20169 votes

If they made the defensive stats multiplicative, they'd force the non-tanks to actually buy more defense to use it properly, thus hopefully gimping their damage.

edit: Critmaster got it

GixiaOct 21, 201613 votes

You're comparing a tier 2 mastery to a tier 4 one. You'd be better off comparing 8 MR/Armor to 10+1 per level damage on first auto-attack to enemy champion with a 6 second CD. Or comparing 5% increased damage (and 2.5% increased damage taken) to 10% +2 per level bonus Armor and Magic Resist for 2 seconds when damaged by an enemy champion with a 9 second CD.

Supreme Senpai69Oct 21, 20163 votes

Should upvote this for clarity

LankPantsOct 21, 20166 votes

You're comparing a tier 2 mastery to a tier 4 one. You'd be better off comparing 8 MR/Armor to 10+1 per level damage on first auto-attack to enemy champion with a 6 second CD.

OK then, compare them. One of them is a strong mastery for it's tier which gives a ton of early poke, probably to the point where melee tops will be pushed even further out of lane because the ranged harass it gives early game is top tier. One of them is a joke of a mastery which you should probably never take because the restriction on the stats it gives is giant, you are really not going to be under your towers that often.

Or comparing 5% increased damage (and 2.5% increased damage taken) to 10% +2 per level bonus Armor and Magic Resist for 2 seconds when damaged by an enemy champion with a 9 second CD.

One has a 100% uptime, the other has a 22% uptime. Gaining a burst of defensive stats is of questionable use anyway, I'd take a flat 5% over the 10% +2 per level if it just didn't fall off, or even had something near a 50% uptime. As it stands, that mastery is competing against Insight and 15% summoner CD is really hard to beat, it's one of the few good things Resolve has going for it, so I doubt anyone's going to jump on this new mastery.

RoloDeSwigsOct 21, 20162 votes

Actually you'll be under tower a lot from all of the ranged harass ;). Still kinda sucks that Sion won't really benefit from that for too long.

Dominick DestineOct 20, 201611 votes

Those resolve masteries are a joke.

Bad job , Riot.

ZT XperimentorOct 20, 20169 votes

Hey riot, you know what's more fun than getting kills? Being able to play the game.

DJ S0NAOct 20, 20166 votes

This mastery is kinda for champions who struggle to lane against and gets pushed or ganked under tower constantly...

But the mastery is too underwhelming...

Critmaster GarenOct 20, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ Sona,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qbpE9i9i,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-10-20T22:55:50.086+0000)

This mastery is kinda for champions who struggle to lane against and gets pushed or ganked under tower constantly...

But the mastery is too underwhelming...

and at the same time theyre giving ranged champions a mastery to poke better, with their first auto attack dealing additional damage.

because thats mainly what its for.

{quoted}

how about the % increase mastery on surr@20 right now?

that one tier 4 mastery looks better than any of the keystones for fighters tbh. its still crazy how much damage amp there is in ferocity.

Critmaster GarenOct 20, 20166 votes

oh, man. they REALLY dont want us to go into resolve, lol.

Wolftastic33Oct 21, 20166 votes

Look at the name: Siegemaster. It should be working with enemy buildings instead of your own.

DeusVultOct 21, 20164 votes

It might help champs top who get pushed under their tower by a manaless/pushing ranged top laner, so that it would be harder to poke them down /dive them.

Also, the new fearless mastery gives 10%+2 per level Armor and MR when damaged by an enemy champion for 2 seconds (9 second CD). So that helps full tanks, but is useless on skirmishers.

And while Morde can't use it, the new Courage of the Colossus mastery is great for full tanks by giving them a massive shield.

So while yes, Riot has always, including now, favored damage dealers over tanks, especially in masteries (good lord the free damage), some of the new defensive masteries aren't as bad.

LankPantsOct 21, 20166 votes

It might help champs top who get pushed under their tower by a manaless/pushing ranged top laner, so that it would be harder to poke them down /dive them.

If you're overly generous to the mastery it blocks two more damage from a strong attack than Tough Skin. That's just never going to be worth how insanely conditional it is.

So while yes, Riot has always, including now, favored damage dealers over tanks, especially in masteries (good lord the free damage), some of the new defensive masteries aren't as bad.

The only good mastery Riot introduced for tanks is Courage of the Colossus. Fearless drops off too quickly to realistically be useful, especially since it has insane anti-synergy with Courage of the Colossus, Most of the time if you take these two masteries you're shielding your shield that shields you from burst from burst. That's just inefficient, most enemies are going to, in most cases either DPS down the shield or let it drop. Trying to burst through a giant shield on a tank just isn't a great idea. You also give up Insight, one of the few good masteries in Resolve to run Fearless. The opportunity cost is too high.

Siege Master is honestly hot garbage for most tanks. 8 armour and MR for losing, not that useful. It's just always going to be better to grab the unconditional damage reduction on the same tier rather than trying to shackle yourself to a subpar playstyle to try to utilise a mastery that isn't even that great when it works.

StellafreyjaOct 20, 20162 votes

Fearless sounds like a decent mastery:

"Gain 10% +2 per level bonus Armor and Magic Resist when damaged by an enemy champion for 2 seconds (9s Cooldown)"

Malicious MetalOct 20, 201617 votes

Oh Gee a whole two seconds instead of persisting during CD and having a CD after leaving combat?

AtajoOct 21, 20163 votes

Nah, it's legit. Assuming a non-MR scaling champ w/ flat MR runes = 42 MR. At level 10, gives 21.2 MR. Think 29.6% less magic damage becoming to 38.7% less magic damage. Or 14.9% increase in effective health, meaning that fed Annie needs to do 14.9% more damage to 100-0 you. It's a ~23.4% increase in effective health at lvl 16, too (+33.2MR). Sucks she can only get +7.5% damage increase max from this tier in Ferocity, right?

EDIT: It's 10% of TOTAL armor/MR, not bonus. At lvl 10, Fearless gives 20+0.1*42 = 24.2 MR in the above scenario. 17% increase in effective health for 2 seconds, 14.5% less damage taken for 2 seconds.

RouwhorstOct 21, 20161 votes

The 10% is ambiguous, so it could also mean 10% of base resistance or total resistance, of which I think the latter is the case. So that would make 4.2 + 10*2 = 24.2 more resistance. How did you get 14.9% more effective health? Resistances scale in a 1 to 1% ratio with effective health, therefore 21.2 MR would mean 21.2% more effective (Magic)health.

Battlecast SonaOct 21, 20161 votes

when you add more armor/mr on top of an existing number it doesn't come out nice and clean - each point of armor does not decrease your damage taken by the same amount, which can be most easily documented if you compare a 100 armor target to a 200 armor target - their damage decrease isn't doubled, it gains much less than the initial 0-100 points. You can see this pattern continue on into the ether (you don't hit 90% reduced damage until some ridiculously high armor number even though you can get to around 50% with under 250). At a certain point, adding more points of armor just isn't worth it because you'd actually gain far more effective health from an HP item.

RouwhorstOct 21, 20162 votes

I know that armor does not decrease the damage linearly. However, I was not talking about damage reduction, but about effective health.

Effective Health The formula for the multiplication of damage (for resistances larger than 0) goes like this: 100/(100+resistance) This means that if you have 25 armor, all the physical damage you take is multiplied by: 100/(100+25) = 100/125 = 4/5 = 0.8 This means the champion takes only 80% of the physical damage dealt to him, so 20% damage not. Therefore we say that the champion has effectively more health against physical damage.

By what do we need to multiply our health to find our effective health? We know that effective health multiplied with the damage multiplier should give us our health. Therefore: our effective health = health / damage multiplier.

So, in order to calculate the effective health, you will need to divide your health by that multiplier. If we assume a champion with 1000 health and 25 armor(previous example) his effective health will become: 1000/0.8 = 1250. This is the same as: 1000/(100/(100+25)). as 100/(100+25) was 0.8 (previous example) Dividing a fracture is the same as multiplying with the reverse of that fracture, so you get: 1000*(100+25)/100 = 1000*1.25 =1250.

With that you can see that the effective health can be calculated by multiplying your health with (1+0.01 x armor). Which can be rewritten into: health + 0.01 armor x health, which has the form of a linear function.

Effectiveness of Armor vs Health And yes, at a certain point buying health is better, as you can indeed see in the formula HP + 0.01 x armor x HP = EHP If you would assign points 1 by 1 to either health or resistance with the goal to get the highest EHP possible, you would first need to get some points into Health (armor without health is useless), then you look at when adding a point in armor would give more than adding a point in health. So, when does 1 armor give more EFH than 1 health point? This is when 0.01 x 1(armor) x HP > 1. or rewritten HP > 100. After that (100 points in HP, 1 in armor) you must assign the points evenly across Hp and armor, starting with HP. So at 2000 health, you can best get 1900 armor. However, due to costs and items(slots) this is not really optimal in league.

If you want more information about this topic you can look on the wiki.

WoonStruckOct 20, 20165 votes

Essentially only protects you when you're engaging or getting engaged on.

If you're engaging, you likely would have won that fight with or without it. For tanks in general, if they're focusing you that hard during those first two seconds, your team already won, regardless of this mastery.

If you're getting engaged on, since it only lasts 2 seconds, and isn't really a HUGE boost, its probably not going to help you win unless you were so far ahead that it wouldn't have really mattered anyway. You're still dead if you were even-behind.

WoonStruckOct 20, 20161 votes

MM and Ultimo, IIRC, Masteries are multiplicative. There's more damage scaling than that depending on other increases available.

Malicious MetalOct 20, 20164 votes

The bizarre thing is that Ferocity tier 4 is basically just three versions of the same 5% damage increase :P

WoonStruckOct 20, 20164 votes

I just wish they would put Veteran Scars in T1 (if they don't change to % HP), swiftness to T2. Yeah, non-tanks could take it, but it won't help non-tanks live through CC, and everyone needs slow resistance with how absurd the amount of slows in the game are now. **Swiftness tends to be the only reason I'll go deep into resolve on low-cc tanky champions now. **

Put a new useful mastery in T3, and something that doesn't ALWAYS override legendary guardian in priority instead in T5.

Olaf's the only one outside of maybe tank supports that can opt into Legendary Guardian and call it a good choice, and most Olafs go Fervor instead because of how bad Resolve is.

Keep in mind I no longer take SotA on low-cc tanky champs in order to try to adjust to the incoming meta.

Malicious MetalOct 20, 20168 votes

Hell, they could just rebuild the entire Tree from scratch if you ask me. There's a lot of potential to make it a good tree for tanky champions without it getting abused by those who should be opting for damage

WoonStruckOct 20, 20163 votes

This is a better option, but you know Riot won't do it.

After tanks went 0/30/0 in the defensive tree for the longest time, they're afraid of anything that's not full tank being able to take damage, even though they nipped that in the bud by forcing a 12/18 split.