Feels like Riot is wanting to make all tanks equal to fighters

Shroom Junkie·Oct 22, 2015·5 votes·538 views

I mean, they buffed a few(nerfed a couple too but not too much), added those new juggernaut items that gave them stronger damage, but to compensate is making a ton of champs with true damage and %maxhealth damage. And then there's Vayne who basically just ignores all their defenses, and is the most popular champ in the game atm... but granted she's always done that, but now is just in a better spot because of the whole tank-fighter-juggernaut situation.

Kinda just want all that reverted so tanks do lots of CC and little damage, and fighters are tanky but immobile and have lots of damage... was a lot nicer back then, more balanced.

31 Comments

OlafRagnarsonOct 24, 20154 votes

Riot couldn't balance a cube on a flat surface if their lives depended on it. Tanks do stupid amounts of damage, have abilities to make them move fast, or make their enemies move slow...and yet get the benefit of being harder to kill. There are very few drawbacks to tanks and its really ruins the game to be honest.

Shroom JunkieOct 24, 20151 votes

Well, fighters have always been like that, with Garen, Cho'gath, Lee Sin, etc., but now they're giving tanks tons of damage and new champs and champ reworks ways to kill them easier essentially just making them fighters with more CC.

ExecutorDillOct 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Riot couldn't balance a cube on a flat surface if their lives depended on it. Tanks do stupid amounts of damage, have abilities to make them move fast, or make their enemies move slow...and yet get the benefit of being harder to kill. There are very few drawbacks to tanks and its really ruins the game to be honest.

They are low risk, low reward. They are hard to kill but aren't as good at killing and taking turrets as other classes. More importantly they can take out 3-5 enemies by themselves and the thing is.... Tanks do damage overtime and are Melee, meaning they will be taking damage just to do it. Assassins and Marksen have 100 to 0 dmg and have means of doing that dmg without taking dmg back.

OlafRagnarsonOct 24, 20151 votes

Yeah, cause Nause Qing a turret doesn't kill them fast at all....

Shroom JunkieOct 25, 20151 votes

When a tank is dealing 1000+ damage while still having CC galore and natural tankiness, when only building tank... something is wrong.

ExecutorDillOct 24, 20152 votes

Yes and I like it. I find ppl who think tanks are not suppose to do dmg stupid af. Tanks were in the worst spot before these changes tbh. Now as a tank player, I don't expect to get mad kills, but it annoys me when I have 4 times the amount of deaths as a squishy carry simply because thier range, mobility and sustain allow them to melt me and keep them safe and alive. It's not fair I spend a lot of gold in defenses that make unable to take objectives or kill someone by myself simply because I lack the dmg. Being only good as a walking wall that doesn't out live long after his teammates die. This is justice at its finest!

But what are you worried for, the marksman rework is right around the corner.

Shroom JunkieOct 24, 20151 votes

I think all this true damage and %maxhealth damage shouldn't exist, and tanks shouldn't have so much damage. Tanks are meant to be CC heavy guys that just soak up damage and lock down key enemies to win fights, they aren't supposed to be carries themselves and having a tank jump on you so that you can't kill him in 10 seconds of constant AA'ing as an ADC yet he can burst the fuck out of you is just stupid and the most annoying thing ever. A tank with CC and tons of health and armor and magic resist should NOT have the damage of a carry. Period.

BeuhlakorOct 24, 20151 votes

You should be happy since Darius, Garen and Fiora are not tanks.

Shroom JunkieOct 24, 20151 votes

They might as well be honestly... Darius and Garen are tanky af by mid game and deal tons of damage, and by late game so is Fiora. The only thing that separates them from tanks is they trade damage for CC, and now Fiora can parry CC and give it to someone else.

ExecutorDillOct 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I think all this true damage and %maxhealth damage shouldn't exist, and tanks shouldn't have so much damage. Tanks are meant to be CC heavy guys that just soak up damage and lock down key enemies to win fights, they aren't supposed to be carries themselves and having a tank jump on you so that you can't kill him in 10 seconds of constant AA'ing as an ADC yet he can burst the fuck out of you is just stupid and the most annoying thing ever. A tank with CC and tons of health and armor and magic resist should NOT have the damage of a carry. Period.

Omg, it's like the slightest bit of love tanks get is rejected by the critics. Back when Cinderhulk gave 25% increased bonus health they argued it was too much andableded it down to 15%. Then they nerfed tank items and everywhere you there is %health and true dmg as if crit and pen items wasn't hell enough.

I believe any role (excluding support) should have carry potential. I think that a tank should be able best an assassin if he plays smarter. I've had times when I bested a Vayne top lane as Shen and there's been a time she totally wrecked me, before this season everyone I went up against him he bested me but just recently I was able to beat (using none of the juggernaut items mentioned^) but it was mad hard, I farmed under turret whole game.

Shroom JunkieOct 24, 20151 votes

The reason they nerfed Cinderhulk was because the damage was too much, and I'm pretty sure its always been 15% health. It was so OP it was being used in lanes, and its not just tanks they did that with Runeglaive too because it was being used in lane.

Personally I still hate the true damage and %health damage, and I think they should be more rare, but no matter how tanky or whatever a tank is they shouldn't be dealing enough damage to 1v1 a carry.

I've had times when I bested a Vayne top lane as Shen and there's been a time she totally wrecked me

And that's what I hate. Shen is supposed to be a tanky guy that's mostly passive in lane so he can ult to an ally or TP whenever needed, he isn't supposed to deal crazy amounts of damage so he can 1v1 a carry(Seeing as it was Vayne who ignores most of his tank that's kind of bs...). I get if he builds offensive like AD or AP, but when they're building full tank and winning 1v1's against carries you know something is wrong.

Tanks are supposed to be guys used for team comps and to help win fights. Some have major CC( Malphite Gnar ), others have protection and peel( Maokai Shen ), but they are not supposed to be duelists. This isn't a 1v1 game, the tank role is made for a team but it seems they're trying to make it a 1v1 game with all this crap.

I'm all for tank buffs but when they give them a shit ton of damage, that's when I complain. That's when they need nerfed.

ExecutorDillOct 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The reason they nerfed Cinderhulk was because the damage was too much, and I'm pretty sure its always been 15% health. It was so OP it was being used in lanes, and its not just tanks they did that with Runeglaive too because it was being used in lane.

Personally I still hate the true damage and %health damage, and I think they should be more rare, but no matter how tanky or whatever a tank is they shouldn't be dealing enough damage to 1v1 a carry.

And that's what I hate. Shen is supposed to be a tanky guy that's mostly passive in lane so he can ult to an ally or TP whenever needed, he isn't supposed to deal crazy amounts of damage so he can 1v1 a carry(Seeing as it was Vayne who ignores most of his tank that's kind of bs...). I get if he builds offensive like AD or AP, but when they're building full tank and winning 1v1's against carries you know something is wrong.

Tanks are supposed to be guys used for team comps and to help win fights. Some have major CC( ), others have protection and peel( ), but they are not supposed to be duelists. This isn't a 1v1 game, the tank role is made for a team but it seems they're trying to make it a 1v1 game with all this crap.

I'm all for tank buffs but when they give them a shit ton of damage, that's when I complain. That's when they need nerfed.

But Shen doesn't have crazy damage. It just looks that way because he builds extremely tanky so against a squishy in a 1v1 it will look like he is doing more damage than you, when in truth your just dealing less because he has bought a lot of resistances. Not mention he deals primarily magic dmg through abilities and the magic dmg sunfire and thornmail give him. MR, being a resistance that has small scaling (1.25 per lvl) and no one ever builds it unless they are more than 1 strong magic dmg dealer. Shen has been in a pretty weak spot before the buffs he got this year that's why he is a bit more popular now. But he is far from op.

Shroom JunkieOct 25, 20151 votes

I don't mean Shen has crazy damage period, I mean he has a lot of damage in the fact that he can build pure tank and still do a LOT. Same with Malph and Sion and a lot of other tanks. Just the fact that they build full tank and can 1v1 an ADC is bullshit unless they're Rammus with Sunfire, and a fuckton of armor and Thornmail. Heck even then but, he's mostly just meat, AOE damage, and chase so... can't complain.

ExecutorDillOct 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't mean Shen has crazy damage period, I mean he has a lot of damage in the fact that he can build pure tank and still do a LOT. Same with Malph and Sion and a lot of other tanks. Just the fact that they build full tank and can 1v1 an ADC is bullshit unless they're Rammus with Sunfire, and a fuckton of armor and Thornmail. Heck even then but, he's mostly just meat, AOE damage, and chase so... can't complain.

Cause it's marksmens nature to be squishy. Why do you feel so much of them come with CC or mobility built in their kits? Because they need ways to distance themselves from targets who can otherwise be a threat up close. It would've make kiting and positioning feel so important if the marksman can stand right in front someone's face and kill them without a consequence.

It'd be less fun too!

Shroom JunkieOct 25, 20151 votes

Marksmen usually have at least 1000 health and some resistances by level 6, which is way before laning phase ends. You're telling me Shen, with his multi-target taunt CC, heals on Q, and global shield that teleports you to an ally, or Sion, who has 2 AOE knockups/knockbacks/displacements(granted its hard to land his Q on more than one person but still), a slow, a huge shield and health scaling(not that much but still, by mid game as Sion I usually have some 300 extra health), should have 1000+ damage while only building tank? I find that a little bs.

BeuhlakorOct 24, 20151 votes

Which tanks are you talking about ?

Shroom JunkieOct 24, 20152 votes

TahmKench Garen Skarner etc. And then just most tanks in general, with all the new tank items its making tanks into fighters giving them so much damage with item 3742 item 3748 and item 3053 .

BeuhlakorOct 24, 20153 votes

Garen and Skarner are not tanks.

Tahm is. And I don't remember him being built with any offensive item. He is "just" OP.

Shroom JunkieOct 24, 20151 votes

Anything that isn't support Tahm usually builds offensive-tanky, and Titanic Hydra is almost a must because of the synergy with his ult.

BastionKrossOct 24, 20151 votes

Tahm was overbuffed. Plain and simple.

The other two aren't tanks, they're juggernauts. They're closer to bruisers than they are tanks, since their job is to crack heads and be hard to kill. Tanks absorb damage like bruisers, yes, but they do things bruisers aren't meant to like initiate, bodyguard, and cc an entire team.

And by the way, "fighters" are champions like Fiora MasterYi Yasuo who are squishy, have great DPS, and have some ability that grants them the ability to survive in the middle of a teamfight without being tanky.

Shroom JunkieOct 24, 20152 votes

Thing is, Juggernauts are being overbuffed along with tanks. Tanks are being given damage but other champs are being given tank killers like true damage and %maxhealth, Juggernauts are given more damage for being tanky so now they're just like unstoppable walls the likes of tanks destroying your carries and you now have to focus them.

Its overbuffing Juggernauts and making tanks into fighters with CC.

ShonjlOct 24, 20153 votes

None of those champs are tanks though? They are Juggs which is just another word for Brusier.

Tanks are Braum, Sejuani, Taric, Rammus, etc. That build pure defense and have only CC and have low damage but their CC controls battles. Bruisers often only have 1 form of CC if even that and in turn have to rely on having decent damage and survivibility to endure a battle. Garen technically has no CC since 1.5 second Silence isn't even that big a deal, nothing is dying in that time, moreso when about half that silence is used during the Q animation.

Shroom JunkieOct 24, 20151 votes

Okay, what about other tanks like Shen Sion or heck, even Gnar ? He has an AOE stun, an AOE knockback that doubles as a stun if the targets hit a wall, and a slow, but he's coupled with enough base damage and his %maxhealth damage that he pretty much became like what I'm talking about; super tanky with lots of damage and CC. Sion has lots of base damage and the items don't help matters, same with Shen, goes for tank Ekko, Rammus has a lot of ult damage and if anyone attacks him with AA's they take damage, not to mention Thornmail or any of the tanky damage items, Sejuani synergizes with those items pretty well, and has AOE %maxhealth around her, yet is still tanky af and has tons of CC.

BeuhlakorOct 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Okay, what about other tanks like or heck, even ? He has an AOE stun, an AOE knockback that doubles as a stun if the targets hit a wall, and a slow, but he's coupled with enough base damage and his %maxhealth damage that he pretty much became like what I'm talking about; super tanky with lots of damage and CC. Sion has lots of base damage and the items don't help matters, same with Shen, goes for tank Ekko, Rammus has a lot of ult damage and if anyone attacks him with AA's they take damage, not to mention Thornmail or any of the tanky damage items, Sejuani synergizes with those items pretty well, and has AOE %maxhealth around her, yet is still tanky af and has tons of CC.

Sion is a tank. No doubt at all.

Shen is just like DrMundo . Weird combination of tank and fighter. You almost never build any offensive items on them, but at the same time you have little CC and higher base damages.

Gnar is a tricky one. Mega-Gnar is definitely a tank with low scaling, high base damages and many CC. Mini-Gnar is more of semi-ranged carry that builds like a fighter.

But in general, tanks are, for example, champions like Rammus Sejuani Maokai Sion . Tanks have high base damages, low scaling and many CC and mostly build pure defensive.

Juggernauts are a sub-classe of fighters (commonly known as bruisers) that have no dashes like Darius Garen . They have less CCs than tanks, they are less durable and they have low mobility, but they have higher damages.

ShonjlOct 25, 20151 votes

Shen and Sion aren't really damaging, they are tanks right. Gnar I will agree with you he is broken.

He is pure tank, has tank CC but is still capable of great damage even without BoRK, with BoRK he is broken.

Shroom JunkieOct 25, 20151 votes

Shen has his passive and high base damages, Sion has his shield with %maxhealth and high base damage, not to mention if he builds BC for the AD and armor pen. and his E armor pen., and playing both of them in top a lot myself I can say they do in fact do damage. After these new items their damage is just crazy for tanks, especially on Sion.

SEKAIOct 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Okay, what about other tanks like or heck, even ?

Sion is a bruiser, just one really close to being a tank but not really, since none of his CCs are reliable.

Shen is a bruiser, a duelist in fact. He just scales with tank stats very well but that doesn't mean he was born a tank.

Gnar is a cross between a ranged ADC and a bruiser.

Shroom JunkieOct 25, 20151 votes

From point blank Sion's R is very reliable, his slow is long range and has a fast speed so its reliable, and his Q is only slightly hard to land. Just get them in the middle and unless they have a lot of MS like an ADC with Statikk Shiv, you'll probably just barely get the knockup.

Shen honestly shouldn't be a duelist. I main him support and honestly I don't think he should have the damage he has. I've 1v1'd ADC's before... pretty stupid.

Gnar is completely stupid. As mini, he has range, %maxhealth damage every 3 hits as well as a speed boost and attack speed boost making it that much easier to land it again, a long-range slow, and a dash(a long one if he hits something too). As Mega Gnar he has a high damage fairly large AOE Q that slows and deals lots of damage, an AOE stun(not a big one but big enough to hit 3 people), a small hop, and the best part of all that completely breaks the so called name of "bruiser," his ult... his fucking ult. AOE knockback and stun that alone can change a team fight because you've now locked down anywhere from 1 to 5 people on the enemy team.

Gnar is not a bruiser or a ranged ADC or a cross or whatever the fuck you want to say. He's honestly just stupid and overloaded...

SEKAIOct 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

From point blank Sion's R is very reliable,

Same with anything but that's not saying much.

his slow is long range and has a fast speed so its reliable, and his Q is only slightly hard to land. Just get them in the middle and unless they have a lot of MS like an ADC with Statikk Shiv, you'll probably just barely get the knockup.

His ulti isn't reliable as something reliable would be either single target or at least instant cast AoE. A spell that signals the entire map, only gives him speed up over time as well as being hard to steer is not the example of something reliable, it just isn't.

All of Sion's CCs can miss or has some form of delay gating it. And he has infinite scaling. All of these points to that Sion is in fact a bruiser.

Shen honestly shouldn't be a duelist. I main him support and honestly I don't think he should have the damage he has. I've 1v1'd ADC's before... pretty stupid.

Shen is a duelist in terms of kit. He split pushes and gank like a god, he has a periodic last hit/duel harass AA mod passive, a shield that procs his passive and his Q that can serve as both sustain, last hitting and some damage source. Taunt is his only CC and it costs him a shiet ton. Which all suggest him being a dueling bruiser.

Gnar is not a bruiser or a ranged ADC or a cross or whatever the fuck you want to say. He's honestly just stupid and overloaded...

I guess.

Anyway the difference between a bruiser and a tank is the difference in their hard CC count. Mundo would be a bruiser and Amumu is a tank. Naut would be a tank and Renek would be a bruiser. Nasus is a bruiser and Sej is a tank.

ExecutorDillOct 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Same with anything but that's not saying much.

His ulti isn't reliable as something reliable would be either single target or at least instant cast AoE. A spell that signals the entire map, only gives him speed up over time as well as being hard to steer is not the example of something reliable, it just isn't.

All of Sion's CCs can miss or has some form of delay gating it. And he has infinite scaling. All of these points to that Sion is in fact a bruiser.

Shen is a duelist in terms of kit. He split pushes and gank like a god, he has a periodic last hit/duel harass AA mod passive, a shield that procs his passive and his Q that can serve as both sustain, last hitting and some damage source. Taunt is his only CC and it costs him a shiet ton. Which all suggest him being a dueling bruiser.

I guess.

Anyway the difference between a bruiser and a tank is the difference in their hard CC count. Mundo would be a bruiser and Amumu is a tank. Naut would be a tank and Renek would be a bruiser. Nasus is a bruiser and Sej is a tank.

And tanks have abilities that amplify or promote tanky building (with some offensive bonuses for building so. Bruisers have a mix of offense and defense because the are strong dps champs and need to be able to survive to get off all their dmg.

Some Bruisers: Darius (tanky base stats, bit of sustain, a pull and a slow) Fiora (Situational healing, parry ability, 2 slows and healing on ult)

Both of them are Bruisers but they are different. Fiora is a mobile, high sustain duelist type, and Darius the tanky, team disrupter with high dmg and teamfight power.