J4 isn't OP.

InSingedWeTrust·Feb 10, 2015·56 votes·4,099 views

Every other jungler is both UP and does shitty in the new jungle. He'll still be nerfed before Lee Sin, though. J4 should have learned from Elise's gutting.

75 Comments

Reynard the ƒoxFeb 10, 201518 votes

Yeah it's weird that he hasn't been changed one bit since they altered his E a long time ago. A year? In season 3 teams never picked JarvanIV because he was comparatively weak. Now here in Season 5, JarvanIV's numbers and kit are exactly the same, and yet hes dominating simply because everything else was nerfed around him.

Except Lee Sin, naturally.

ErockandrollFeb 10, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=a god damn hero,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qQbo7FxZ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-02-10T04:44:35.304+0000)

Yeah it's weird that he hasn't been changed one bit since they altered his E a long time ago. A year? In season 3 teams never picked JarvanIV because he was comparatively weak. Now here in Season 5, JarvanIV's numbers and kit are exactly the same, and yet hes dominating simply because everything else was nerfed around him.

Except Lee Sin, naturally.

Their was a slight change to his passive some time back in season 4. (when they preached Renekton bar or something) it gave him slightly more DPS against Multiple Targets, while being neutral in dueling.

Vellich0rFeb 10, 20152 votes

it was a buff while dueling also, it was a buff in any scenario really though it did scale with levels to become stronger I guess.

Grand ElevenFeb 10, 201515 votes

Udyr hasn't been changed in over a year either ... just a bear stance tweak right before his ultimate got released. It's not that jungle champs got nerfed ... its that jungle got changed dramatically and J4 is simply ideal in it now.

The problem seems to be no matter what you do in the jungle ... a certain blind monk seems to do perfectly fine...

Left Hook LarryFeb 12, 20151 votes

Udyr relies a lot on items such as devour, which got nerfed severely

Vellich0rFeb 10, 201511 votes

he actually had a large buff when they upped his passive damage and dropped his mana costs. not massive, but still, that on top of a round of nerfs to everyone else helped him become strong.

ImHerVoiceFeb 10, 20152 votes

MANA COST NOT COSTS COST GET IT RIGHT you over exaggerate completely. His W was clunky as fuck with that massive cost of mana. And everyone agreed that. Those changes did not buff him Those changes were for top lane j4. Not jungle j4. Do not confuse them fool.

BeatzBoyFTWFeb 10, 20158 votes

MANA COST NOT COSTS COST GET IT RIGHT you over exaggerate completely.

Woah, irony~

His W was clunky as fuck with that massive cost of mana.

It's only 30 mana at all ranks, cheaper than Sion's E.

And everyone agreed that. Those changes did not buff him Those changes were for top lane j4. Not jungle j4. Do not confuse them fool.

It wasn't even that effective, it also did helps his jungle a little bit more.

Ser GarlandFeb 10, 20158 votes

His W used to cost 55 mana at all ranks... for a 50 health shield at level 1... which had an 18 second cool down. In the jungle, that doesn't mean much, but in top lane, riven and shen were literally laughing at him.

As a top-J4 main, those buffs did wonders in lane. Last hitting became easier, i could harass with more than my 66 mana Q or my 110 mana EQ (dear god...) and if a jungler came to gank me, I could use my W without fear of completely fucking over my lane by completely draining myself of mana. In the jungle though. None of these changes matter much. Plus I recall a year ago, people would harass me for picking Jarvan instead of some OP champion.

If Jarvan's just becoming popular now, then my work is done.

He's reliable, not OP. Reliable means he's in a good spot. Riot should focus on streamlining other champions so they don't succumb to bugs. (Quinn, Azir etc)

BeatzBoyFTWFeb 10, 20151 votes

His W used to cost 55 mana at all ranks... for a 50 health shield at level 1... which had an 18 second cool down. In the jungle, that doesn't mean much, but in top lane, riven and shen were literally laughing at him.

No, I'm sure Jarvan's W costs 30 mana at all ranks now. They reduced it before to improve his top lane power.

Ser GarlandFeb 10, 20151 votes

"used to cost." It used to be 55. It's 30 now, thank god. Still not as satisfying as a Sion E, as you compared it too, but at least it's worth putting a point into.

SmokinSickStyleFeb 10, 20156 votes

Almost any other champion in the game "suffers" the same way, if you'd look 4 months ago+ Zed was deemed the most balanced champion and even a tad UP, heck he got even a little buff on ult that lets him ignore unit collision during it.

"Enviromental" changes sometimes do more than direct champion buffs\nerfs, so you don't really have to be surprised if someone is suddenly strong again.

For example Zed is not OP, it's just the preseason changes did benefit him more than mages (Mages didn't actually get any benefit..), definitely mana regen nerfs were needed, but Riot doesn't know balance, instead of gutting mana reg how they did, they should have just toned down it's power to a 60-75% instead of toning it down BY a good 60%.

Zed's only strong complaint is his laning phase, it's not a coincidence, mages cannot compete with his waveclear and poke unless they are scripting with 100% accuracy, they cannot afford to miss a skillshot where Zed is more forgiving because of energy being very efficient in the early levels.

I do play Zed but i also play mages (I started with them when i first played the game actually) and i can easily see the differences.

aaronconlinFeb 10, 20151 votes

Same with Zed. If I remember correctly last season he wasn't considered a great pick and "supports" dominated mid lane, now he's "op"

SpookzieFeb 10, 20159 votes

It's sad. Compared to S2, there's like what... 5 viable junglers...

CaeziumFeb 10, 20154 votes

Lee Sin, Jarvan IV, Vi, and Pantheon make up of over 80% of jungle picks right now.

SpookzieFeb 10, 20157 votes

I hate this game, yet I cant quit it, yet.

Ser GarlandFeb 10, 20151 votes

Tell me why Hecarim isn't in that list? he's gotten like 5 buffs over the last five patches. Inb4 Hecarim new meta for season 6

LongFur FoxFeb 10, 20157 votes

J4 got nerfed slightly less by the new jungle due to % health damage but come on. He does not have sustain either so he got hurt a decent amount too. The reason he is there now is because he is versatile and can fit in a lot of teamcomps. Also does not hurt that gnar is a priority pick. Lee is the exact same. He is versatile and fits in almost every teamcomp but numbers wise they might both be slightly underpowered.

Let the downvotes come.. but if you really disagree give me a reason

PatycTheLovableFeb 11, 20151 votes

I think the main issue with Lee isn't his damage, the guy just has so much mobility for someone that can't see...

LongFur FoxFeb 11, 20151 votes

Agreed and that is why it is hard to balance him. His ward jumping and champion jumping has become iconic for him so you cannot just remove it.

PatycTheLovableFeb 12, 20151 votes

Yep, not much Riot can do really. Either wat people are gonna be pissed off at the state of LeeSin

Antonidas1Feb 10, 20153 votes

Welp there goes my very first owned champ that I mained since pre - season 2 that I was hoping wouldn't ever get discovered to only get nerfed in the end... R.I.P my prince

Vellich0rFeb 10, 20151 votes

He got one or two major nerfs in pre 4- 4 era including losing the passive armor on his E in an AoE around the flag.

OnanThaManFeb 10, 20153 votes

I took Sion into the jungle the other day, cleared 5 camps before i had to recall, i had no clue he could do so well in the jungle. J4 was buffed last season along with Malphite to compete against renekton in top lane. I would hate to see him nerfed because he and Malphite were my go to top laners. If any nerfs were to happen i would prefer it be to his passive damage to monsters.

junglerboy16Feb 10, 20152 votes

Sion is AMAZING in the jungle, and only gets better after his first clear. He is my most played this year and really crushes it.

Brenticus12Feb 10, 20151 votes

I tried Sion jungle on his rework release and thought it was fine but I think that was before the preseason.

I might try him out in the new jungle. He's my most played champion atm.

Any tips?

junglerboy16Feb 10, 20154 votes

Darn it, I just typed a nice response for you and it glitched out and got deleted. I'll give the TL;DR: version:

Skills: start W>Q>E, and then max in order of R>Q>E>W. Always make sure to reactivate you shield before it breaks because it is a huge part of you clear speed. Before aggroing a camp, always charge a full Q. When using E on camps, always hit a small monster through the big one for the extra damage. Farm tip 6 for lane ganks unless there are super easy opportunities to gank otherwise.

Blue side start: Gromp (Smite immediately)>Blue buff>Wolves>Scuttlecrab, back and clear Red side starting Red (Smite kill)>Raptors>Scuttle (if it is still up)>Krugs and back. After that, clear however you like and just farm for 6.

Red side start: Red (Smite for the kill and heal) and then either go Wolves>Blue>scuttle and back or go Raptors>scuttle>Krugs and back, after that clear the remaining camps.

Tips:

Always take scuttle crab when it is up, you get ahead from the gold and EXP. It can also be the difference between getting pots or not on your first back, which is game changing (remember, it also doesn't fight back, so you can kill it even if you are nearly dead after first clear)
First back, buy Ranger's Trailblazer, but switch to stalkers before you enchant, because by that point you clear very fast and healthy already.
Don't worry too much if you get executed in the jungle, because the buffs persist through that now, and your passive usually lets you clear the rest of any given camp before dying.
Don't bother looking for ganks until you get 6, after which, just gank straight up the lane like a Rammus or Hecarim. However, if a gank throws itself in your lap, don't ignore it just because you aren't 6.
If you are ahead, build trinity force. No really, it actually works great because it gives a ton of damage, helps you stick to enemies after using your CC, and lets you use your epic crit animation.

Since you play Sion already, those are all the tips you will need that you shouldn't already have down from your own experience.

Ser GarlandFeb 10, 20152 votes

This. I'd hate to see everything undone from last year.

"Oh, Renekton's essentially a strictly better J4 in lane, let's give J4 some laneing buffs to compensate." "Oh, we don't see many Renektons these days, let's give him some buffs so he has a strong late game to go with his early game." "Oh, Jarvan's very popular in the jungle, let's gut his laneing damage." "Oh, now Renekton's essentially a strictly better J4 in lane again. Let's nerf Irrelia."

RexZorFeb 10, 20152 votes

I agree that's why i say if you nerf everything instead of buffing everything you end up with the prime example in J4. He is still the same from previous seasons its just that now that everything has been nerfed and he is doing good again and it makes him look op. But he's really not and is actually a healthy champ. Now Riots going to nerf him again and make him unviable and no longer healthy.

Silents429Feb 10, 20152 votes

I have yet to see any compelling reason why he is OP to anyone, so far people just group him with Vi and Lee and assume thats more then enough of an explanation, but it isn't.

OH. His ult does a lot of damage? Well it has a long cooldown, the ability to backfire on his team, potentially get HIM killed, and ONLY scales off of his BONUS AD. As in, he isn't going to get damage out of it unless he is building damage, in which case he isn't overpowered because he deals damage when building damage.

His E + Q combo isn't overpowered if you are about to get hit you have a few seconds to move out of the way and take none of the damage, his Knock up is a situational CC and if you are getting hit by it then learn to dodge his narrow skill shot.

I had someone go on a rant once saying his W was overpowered, What the fuck? His shield has a limit of 510, and that is if every enemy champion is caught in it to give him that, and if he has his W maxed. And it only lasts 5 seconds.

Seriously, what is wrong with him? If I ever had to pick the most balanced champion it would be J4 right now, if you manage to get hit by his E+Q and Ult then you deserve to die if he is building damage, but now he doesn't have his ult for the rest of your team thanks to his lengthy cooldowns and high mana cost.

He doesn't even clear the jungle that well, better then a lot, but not to the point where he isn't at a risk of being murdered early on either.

LelouchtheGreatFeb 10, 20151 votes

Im not gonna to argue that J4 is OP, im just trying to give a little more perspective on why he feels oppressive to many right now rather than just say Lee and Jarvan OP hurrdurr. He has a really strong, versatile, and reliable gap closer that covers quite a bit of distance, and a good Jarvan is definitely not easy to dodge because when he casts it correctly its almost instant. This gap closer is also on a relatively low cd (especially with blue), and he does high initial damage when he does gank you because of his passive. It deals quite a bit of burst combined with his knock up early game, and when J4 brings that much quick burst from a gank, its relatively easy to follow up on. This combo also makes him a very difficult champion to counter jungle, and he can get away with rushing one ad item, then going full tank and he is still able to blow up carries on his own throughout the mid game. His reliability and safety combined with the ability to really pressure lanes early makes him feel very oppressive. Im definitely not advocating nerfs to him, but I can understand how ppl can perceive him as overtuned. In reality, some other junglers just need to be brought up to par to compete with J4, if he had some good counters that were viable at the moment, he wouldn't be such a safe choice

Silents429Feb 10, 20152 votes

His E and Q aren't really that hard to juke.

Most J4's are going to lead a target, and most people are dumb enough to try outrunning it, instead of just stopping for a brief second and then keep running. And I don't think 10-12 second cooldown on his combo even with blue is really that short, he is only going to get to do the combo once during a gank, and maybe twice in a team fight.

I still haven't witnessed a J4 with 1 AD item blowing up carries, especially since all the carries in the game being played have escapes and can kite constantly. But a ton of damage is still cut off if you just dodged, lead him to think your going one direction but go the other.

Ser GarlandFeb 10, 20151 votes

Oh so you're saying that the problem is skilled jarvan's who can land their two part skillshot? If you don't outsmart him with a juke that's YOUR fault. it's not oppressive. In a gank, Jarvan has one chance to EQ early game.

CindikleFeb 10, 20151 votes

His Q just needs the armor shred moved.

Either to his W or to his ult(similar to how Sivir's W works, where it'll put the shred back on his Q).

His problem is that he gains everything he needs from ranking his Q. E mostly gives passive bonuses and is mainly used for his gap closer. It's CD does not change by rank. W isn't very strong till later in the game when you're faced with multiple champions.

Vellich0rFeb 10, 20151 votes

that wouldn't do anything except possibly make him stronger if it goes on his W. On the W it just gives a more reliable shred in a MUCH larger AoE.

CindikleFeb 10, 20151 votes

But he ranks it last. It's not rare for him to not even rank up his W till level 4.

Ideally, attaching it to his ult as a passive bonus to his Q would likely work best.

Vellich0rFeb 11, 20151 votes

true, this would make it a guaranteed level 3 though

Ser GarlandFeb 10, 20151 votes

So you're saying instead of putting a lot of reward in a high mana cost skill shot, you put it into a low mana cost Aoe button press.

....ok sure.

CindikleFeb 10, 20153 votes

45/50/55/60/65

I wouldn't call his Q "high mana cost".

And as I said to the guy above you, W is ranked last. So while it's a larger effect, the actual effect will be smaller. And attaching to the ult would be the better option either way.

PL55Feb 10, 20153 votes

W is not always ranked last, many people consider it more useful than maxing E.

Ser GarlandFeb 10, 20151 votes

Are you comparing those costs to a mage? or an ad bruiser? Jarvan starts out with only a few hundred mana.

and if J4's shield shredded armour the way Q does, pretty sure people would max it first or second.

SaltyKrackaFeb 11, 20152 votes

Actually, I'd comparing it to Nasus' E. Which costs...oh, 120 mana at level 5. And doesn't give him mobility or CC.

ImHerVoiceFeb 10, 20151 votes

the only reason j4 is viable is because hje can literally avoid jungle clearing at any point in the game after level 2. He's literally the only jungler that can do that even lee sin needs level 3 evenutally. j4 can literally clear red walk mid gank. walk top gank. Clear blue Walk mid gank. Walk bot gank. Walk back to mid. Like. thats literally what I've done an entire game. I've avoided clearing any small camps the entire game and taxed 2-4 minions per gank and done better than a jungler who ganks and farms. Like new jungle is just so shit its pathetic rofl.

TourianFeb 10, 20154 votes

Literally though? Literally.

6PFjoFgfQ5Feb 10, 20151 votes

errr...

Name one UP jungler who isnt AP...

J4 is retardedly broke and while its true he never saw much change since his last nerf... the nerfs he got were lovetaps which did nothing to fix him.

With junglers already being too influential right now the LAST thing we need are jungler buffs, riot should give j4 real nerfs like they should have done ages ago.

RexZorFeb 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

errr...

Name one UP jungler who isnt AP...

J4 is retardedly broke and while its true he never saw much change since his last nerf... the nerfs he got were lovetaps which did nothing to fix him.

With junglers already being too influential right now the LAST thing we need are jungler buffs, riot should give j4 real nerfs like they should have done ages ago.

LOL he had major nerfs to the range of his e q combo. And His changes to his E. He is fine and its Riot's fault for nerfing everything else and instead of buffing everything else.

6PFjoFgfQ5Feb 10, 20153 votes

{quoted}

LOL he had major nerfs to the range of his e q combo. And His changes to his E. He is fine and its Riot's fault for nerfing everything else and instead of buffing everything else.

completely wrong....

they never give strong enough nerfs so the same garbage just keeps cycling back up to the top. They need to nerf everybody down to a decent baseline and THEN think about buffing champions who need it. The very last thing we need is jungle buffs, thats crazy talk considering its the single most influential role where most of the most broken op cancerous balance problems exist.

SinlaireFeb 10, 20152 votes

It will always be the single most influental role in the game. The jungler has influence over ALL 3 lanes. what. you want it to be that if you win your lane win win the game? what about the other two lanes?

"I dominated mid as zed. gg freelo." "well your top lost so now he's gonna lose you the game."

"bot lane won lane so now all we have to do is wait to win." "well top and mid both lost so now they have just as many fed as you. what makes you say that?"

i mean thinking that one single lane should have a level of deciding influence on par with almost deciding a match singlehandedly is counter intuitive simply because the other team could do just as well in another lane and bring your advantage to 0 come laning phase.

a good or bad jungler snowballs or fails to protect all lanes. making it so that the well being of all lanes and their ability to fight the opponent is kept in good standing. he prevents a fed mid from being countered by a fed top by shutting down top. he prevents a fed bot lane from being countered by a fed top and mid by slowing their roll.

if you think your one single lane should be a deciding factor, then i have news for you. if you want lane presence and responsibility on par with the outcome of the game potentially resting on you more than any other? pick a jungle, not a lane. he is all lanes and everything in between and thus deserves the respect of having the "single most influential role" and get over yourself if you cant accept that and want to stay in your lane and cry that you're not the most important person on your team.

53872273_DELFeb 11, 20151 votes

What Riot should have done is keep same items, but add options to what kind of jungler you wanna be.. Mad stone should still be a option.. add smite buffs, Dragon Buff, Baron Buff, and made a different map.. which they did all that except for items.. Instead of making the jungle so damn hard that a buff basically takes 90% of your health. risk getting a sonic wave and lee sin striking that butt.. taking your buff and saying " Haw haw haw, walking straight to the bank with this" then your team needs a gank and you are behind !! so they report you for lack of help when it's the environments fault... I like the diversity Riot did, that's awesome but jesus Christ make the camps a bit less agonizing. I saw Elise go Magus, then randuins and she failed miserably. So no j4 isn't op, nor is lee sin. it's partially the shields they get. and the % dmg.. I don't know why cry about it when Riot just tries to tweak stuff. There is a problem and I don't get $50 RP cards for nothing. I'm sure the pros hate this as well.. but they learn to deal with it.. Which is what we should be doing.. God Bless Rito and World LeeSin vs. JarvanIV