It shouldn't be easier for ADCs to hit the cooldown cap compared to mages.

InSingedWeTrust·Nov 17, 2015·180 votes·5,424 views

with BETTER options.

The ADC overhaul was completely too much.

72 Comments

DJColdCutzNov 17, 201512 votes

Yea.. Maybe I just don't understand the item, but can't you hit 40% just by building Essence Reaver and then any other crit item in the game?

7ha7guy777Nov 17, 201511 votes

30%, you'll still need to spend another 1100g on item 3133 afterwards.

Earthlord JazzNov 17, 201510 votes

{quoted}

30%, you'll still need to spend another 1100g on afterwards.

item 3508 + item 3078 gives an easy 40% cdr without losing on damage

7ha7guy777Nov 17, 20156 votes

And those 2 items cost 7400 total gold. It's much easier to just buy item 3508 item 3133 item 1018 for 5500 gold.

Kitten of EvilNov 17, 20152 votes

You don't have to complete the Triforce to get the full 40% CDR. item 3508 item 3057 item 3086 is enough, and that's 5850 gold. Still costs a bit more than Cauliflower Hammer plus Cloak, but Triforce is strong on most champs who use Essence Reaver.

RisurinNov 17, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T9JHVmZv,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2015-11-17T06:02:39.994+0000)

You don't have to complete the Triforce to get the full 40% CDR. is enough, and that's 5850 gold. Still costs a bit more than Cauliflower Hammer plus Cloak, but Triforce is strong on most champs who use Essence Reaver.

I mean, replace ER for Morello and Zeal for a codex/cdr boots and you basically have the ap version of that for less gold. i think its better to stick with completed items to make an argument.

Kitten of EvilNov 17, 20151 votes

Morello and CDR boots only gives you 30% CDR, so you would also have to take 10% from runes. Unless you're counting Sheen as an AP item still, which is weird since it gives no AP and an auto-attack boost, something that's useless on 90% of mages.

While we're at it, if you're counting CDR boots in the "ap version" why not also count it in the AD version? AD champions can use it too. item 3508 item 3158 item 3086 there. Saves you 250 off the Sheen.

RisurinNov 17, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T9JHVmZv,comment-id=0000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-17T16:02:48.843+0000)

Morello and CDR boots only gives you 30% CDR, so you would also have to take 10% from runes. Unless you're counting Sheen as an AP item still, which is weird since it gives no AP and an auto-attack boost, something that's useless on 90% of mages.

While we're at it, if you're counting CDR boots in the "ap version" why not also count it in the AD version? AD champions can use it too. there. Saves you 250 off the Sheen.

CDR boots on ADC means they lose a lot of AS compared to before the changes, 30% is a lot. I'm sure most ADCs, if not all, want to keep their zerkers. Also most mages are midlaners, who get bluebuffs. thats +10% cdr, yes more situational than items, but 10% that he should have more often than other lanes.

250 gold saved off sheen doesnt mean much when ER is 3600 gold and need at least zeal to get to 30% cdr, while athene/morello are 2800/2550 (morello being over 1k cheaper and still give you grieving wounds and 80 ap). replace zeal for a codex, ER for Morello and you have 40% cdr for 1450 less gold (thats like a large rod + pink + potions). If you consider blue buff into the equation, you can save 800 gold for that codex and get something else instead (you would be saving 2250 gold, thats almost an abyssal/void staff/will, or the component for ludens/hourglass/etc)

Kitten of EvilNov 17, 20153 votes

CDR boots on ADC means they lose a lot of AS compared to before the changes, 30% is a lot. I'm sure most ADCs, if not all, want to keep their zerkers.

And most mages want Sorcerer's Boots for the flat 15 Mpen. They lose a lot of damage if they go CDR boots (especially against squishies who don't have much MR -- that 15 Mpen can easily mean 8-12% more damage).

Blue buff is, as you said, conditional. I wouldn't count that towards a reliable CDR cap any more than I'd count it as a reliable source of mana regen.

replace zeal for a codex, ER for Morello and you have 40% cdr for 1450 less gold (thats like a large rod + pink + potions).

Again, that's only 30% unless you're still counting Sheen, which does not make sense as a CDR item on most mages.

You're basically arguing that you can create a set of slot-inefficient items that will give a mage 40% CDR. That may be true. Hell, you could grab four item 3114 for 2200. But that's horribly slot-inefficent. There just isn't a very slot-efficient way for a mage to grab 40% CDR anymore. Even your CDR boots and Morello also requires some other item. Okay, you could grab codex, what are you going to build it into though? A item 3092 ? item 3152 ? Those items are pretty niche -- WOTA is bad on most champions (and it's worse than new Gunblade), and Frost Queen has nice mana regen but you already have mana regen on your Morello's. 250% mana regen is a waste.

Contrast this to Essence Reaver + Zeal and Sheen, which may appear to be as inefficient (after all, it's 3 items)... but Zeal and Sheen will upgrade into Trinity, which is just one slot, and you still have four left to build boots, more damage, or survivability.

ER Zeal and Sheen gives an ADC: 65 AD, 40% crit chance, 40% CDR, 5% MS, 15% AS, 250 mana, Spellblade passive (which ADCs can use), and Essence Reaver mana regain passive (which ADCs can use).

Sheen, Codex, and Morello gives an APC: 105 AP, 40% CDR, 100% mana regen, 250 mana, Spellblade passive (useless on most mages), annnnnnnd a situational GW passive.

Since AP is already cheaper than AD (1 AP is worth 70% as much gold as 1 AD), the mage is losing out in this deal in raw gold efficiency, but also in slot efficiency, because that Codex won't upgrade into anything useful.

RisurinNov 18, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T9JHVmZv,comment-id=000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-17T17:36:42.460+0000)

And most mages want Sorcerer's Boots for the flat 15 Mpen. They lose a lot of damage if they go CDR boots (especially against squishies who don't have much MR -- that 15 Mpen can easily mean 8-12% more damage).

Blue buff is, as you said, conditional. I wouldn't count that towards a reliable CDR cap any more than I'd count it as a reliable source of mana regen.

Again, that's only 30% unless you're still counting Sheen, which does not make sense as a CDR item on most mages.

You're basically arguing that you can create a set of slot-inefficient items that will give a mage 40% CDR. That may be true. Hell, you could grab four for 2200. But that's horribly slot-inefficent. There just isn't a very slot-efficient way for a mage to grab 40% CDR anymore. Even your CDR boots and Morello also requires some other item. Okay, you could grab codex, what are you going to build it into though? A ? ? Those items are pretty niche -- WOTA is bad on most champions (and it's worse than new Gunblade), and Frost Queen has nice mana regen but you already have mana regen on your Morello's. 250% mana regen is a waste.

Contrast this to Essence Reaver + Zeal and Sheen, which may appear to be as inefficient (after all, it's 3 items)... but Zeal and Sheen will upgrade into Trinity, which is just one slot, and you still have four left to build boots, more damage, or survivability.

ER Zeal and Sheen gives an ADC: 65 AD, 40% crit chance, 40% CDR, 5% MS, 15% AS, 250 mana, Spellblade passive (which ADCs can use), and Essence Reaver mana regain passive (which ADCs can use).

Sheen, Codex, and Morello gives an APC: 105 AP, 40% CDR, 100% mana regen, 250 mana, Spellblade passive (useless on most mages), annnnnnnd a situational GW passive.

Since AP is already cheaper than AD (1 AP is worth 70% as much gold as 1 AD), the mage is losing out in this deal in raw gold efficiency, but also in slot efficiency, because that Codex won't upgrade into anything useful.

you see this is part of the arguement i simply cant get. before the mastery/item changes, the diffrence was that mages could get 5% from mastery 15% from boots 20 from mana item. now suddently cdr boots are not good anymore (when they are arguably much better, 5% cdr for 10% summoner cd, is really good). Is it because now adc finally have access to cdr items ? i simply dont know. all i know is that the mastery is still there, just in another place and cdr boots are still very effective on champions that want to use their spells frequently.

How i see it, is that mages have the choice between an early game effective pair of boots (sorcerer) vs a more late game focus one with ionian boots.

I was actually still counting boots, as your example is ER-CDR boot-zeal. just to be clear Ionian boots-morello-codex And honestly, i dont see ER-triforce as a good build anyway. yes on paper its sound nice and all, but its cost a lot of gold, while this patch is all about giving adc more power early game. hell if you put all the stats here it does sound nice, but then you realize that ever other zeal item give 10% more crit chance, that realistic the difference between 30% et 40% CDR is not that noticeable specially on the auto-based role, the other zeal item all have at least 15% more AS, you dont buy triforce for the mana/hp, an overall you could get more from that gold going another zeal item + other stuff like lifesteal or armor pen. Your math doesnt take in account the gold differential, mine did. As you can see in my previous reply, you end up with the gold for a lot of other items, which can be more effective as a power spike. And as we all know, APC scales with lvls, ADC with gold (part of the reasoning behind the current lane configuration). So I think its more expected that 6item ADC scale better then 6 item mages (note that doesnt mean one is necessarily stronger then the other, for example 6 item ryze).

I agree that lichbane is not always great on some APs, but i think Will is still better then what people think. its certainly not worse than gunblade for APs, its like 1.1kcheaper and you get 10% cdr instead of 40 AD and the slow ability (which doesnt refresh faster on hit anymore). I can see it be an alternative, since there seem to be a huge focus on having your spell up as often as possible (more spells = more healing via Will).

Otherwise in the grand sceme of things, it might also just be that the game is balanced so that mids only get to 40% with blue (honestly midlaners should have it more often then otherwise in most games). as of now, i just dont understand why CDR became an issue because ADC have gain access to it.

RisurinNov 17, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Earthlord Jazz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T9JHVmZv,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2015-11-17T05:46:51.072+0000)

+ gives an easy 40% cdr without losing on damage

you dont get the +% crit dmg from IE, not all adc want to spam their spells, and both of them are some of the most expensive item in the game, which takes more time, and delay anything else that could be very usefull at that moment (lifesteal/ armor pen, etc)

runedaraNov 17, 20151 votes

Part of the problem now crit is lifesteal with the keystone.

RisurinNov 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Part of the problem now crit is lifesteal with the keystone.

it got hotfix so it only work on champion. i think frevor is overall better now for ADCs

YrzenNov 17, 201512 votes

Here are your options as an AP mage:

and 1 of: OR and 1 of: OR 1 of: and 2 of: OR 4 of:

item 3504 is pointless unless you have heals or shields, and even then isn't likely to be an ideal choice, even as a support. item 3100 item 3152 item 3115 are all poor besides certain champions with synergy with them item 3060 is a poor option if the enemy team has little or no AP, and isn't ideal for most mages.

Two options require Nashor's synergy. A third is the most common route and forces you to choose between 2 meh options if you don't have Lichbane synergy. The last path requires items with far better options (with less cd) for just about every single champion. Akali Katarina Kennen Rumble Vladimir along with AP Mordekaiser and RekSai are completely barred from all of the routes because of mana associated with items in all of them.

item 3065 item 3110 item 3190 item 3222 Are all terrible for mages. You might as well count them for Adcs if you want to take them into account. Same goes for item 3050 in a solo lane.

Here are your options as an Adc:

and 1 of: OR and 2 of: OR 4 of:

item 1400 item 1408 item 1412 are restricted to jungling adcs.

item 3078 item 3508 are both poor besides certain champions with synergy with them.

item 3137 is a situational item.

EDIT: Yeah this list is flawed as shit.

ZioviNov 17, 20153 votes

Indeed. The main problem is that AP champions has to give up on some useful stats if they want to get high CDR. For example, buyng morello + athene give you 40% CDR, buy you are spending gold for more mana reg than what you want, and you give up on some AP. ADCs, on the other hand, can just get 30-40% CDR simply buying items that are optimal for them.

I think it may be fine to simply introduce a new item with high AP and 10% CDR, though.

FistOfSharkieshaNov 17, 20152 votes

Essence Reaver is no longer poor. In scenarios where the enemy isn't stacking AR so you don't need LW, Reaver is the best AD + Crit chance item and the 30% CDR is insane. Even on non casters ER is sublime. I've seen people use it on Tryndamere to great success. Infinite dashes, high damage, nearly 100% crit with just a shiv.

YrzenNov 17, 20152 votes

Even when the mana passive goes completely to waste?

Damn son.

FistOfSharkieshaNov 17, 20154 votes

Assuming you get 30% CDR from it it's more than 100% gold efficient without the mana restoring passive. It depends if you want Black Cleaver for hp and slightly less CDR or ER for max CDR, max crit, and huge AD.

ER just offers too many good stats to only be seen as a mana regen tool. Miss Fortune doesn't have mana issues because she shouldn't be in range to constantly poke with her Q, but the CDR crit and AD is the best item to overload her ultimate with power and keep her W up at all times. Same with Sivir. No mana issues but the stats are perfect for her.

The Yetii RiderNov 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Here are your options as an AP mage:

and 1 of: OR and 1 of: OR 1 of: and 2 of: OR 4 of:

is pointless unless you have heals or shields, and even then isn't likely to be an ideal choice, even as a support. are all poor besides certain champions with synergy with them is a poor option if the enemy team has little or no AP, and isn't ideal for most mages.

Two options require Nashor's synergy. A third is the most common route and forces you to choose between 2 meh options if you don't have Lichbane synergy. The last path requires items with far better options (with less cd) for just about every single champion. along with AP and are completely barred from all of the routes because of mana associated with items in all of them.

You forgot that mages can just go item 3174 + item 3165 . Simple and clean.

Also, mages do not "own" CDR. Every class should have decent access to every stat that isn't AD or AP. Bruisers have item 3071 + item 3078 + item 3158 , tanks have item 3110 + item 3025 or + item 3065 + item 3190 , supports have their entire item set. Assassins have item 3812 + item 3142 + .

Kitten of EvilNov 17, 20151 votes

Why would you go Morello's plus Athene's as a mage? Seriously, it'd be cheaper to just go item 3165 item 3108 , which is about equally efficient since nobody needs 250% mana regen plus mana font.

The Yetii RiderNov 17, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T9JHVmZv,comment-id=000500020000,timestamp=2015-11-17T16:19:06.277+0000)

Why would you go Morello's plus Athene's as a mage? Seriously, it'd be cheaper to just go , which is about equally efficient since nobody needs 250% mana regen plus mana font.

Yes because Magic Resistance is a thing that no mage will ever want ever.

Kitten of EvilNov 17, 20151 votes

Thanks for ignoring my point to instead highlight the one incomplete aspect of my post. If you needed MR, you'd grab Athene's INSTEAD of Morello's. They serve the same purpose: 20% CDR and 100% mana regen. The only difference is whether you want MR + mana font or more AP + grievous wounds.

If you just wanted the MR, Abyssal is an option or Banshee's Veil. Both of these provide much more MR than Athene's anyway.

Then let me rephrase:

Why would you go Morello's plus Athene's as a mage? Seriously, it'd be cheaper to just go

ALTERNATELY

Why would you go Morello's plus Athene's as a mage? Seriously, it'd be cheaper to just go

Take your pick. Either way my point remains the same.

The Yetii RiderNov 17, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T9JHVmZv,comment-id=00050002000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-17T19:06:43.361+0000)

Thanks for ignoring my point to instead highlight the one incomplete aspect of my post. If you needed MR, you'd grab Athene's INSTEAD of Morello's. They serve the same purpose: 20% CDR and 100% mana regen. The only difference is whether you want MR + mana font or more AP + grievous wounds.

If you just wanted the MR, Abyssal is an option or Banshee's Veil. Both of these provide much more MR than Athene's anyway.

Then let me rephrase:

ALTERNATELY

Take your pick. Either way my point remains the same.

Obviously you get both of them because you want 40% CDR. If mage players didn't value 40% CDR, this thread wouldn't even exist.

Kitten of EvilNov 17, 20152 votes

The issue is that ADCs and AD casters don't have to sacrifice anything to get 40% CDR. They don't have to pay extra for wasted stats like >150% mana regen or spellblade (which isn't wasted on ADCs but is on most mages).

They can grab Youmuu's, Black Cleaver, Sheen, Death's Dance, Triforce, Essence Reaver, Dervish Blade, Warrior enchantment. I could see many of those items being viable, and the stats/effects they give aren't wasted.

Each of these items does something useful -- Death's Dance for survivability and AD-caster lifesteal, ER for crit and mana, Dervish Blade for the QSS active, Black Cleaver for armor-shredding, Youmuu's for the AS/MS active, Sheen/Triforce for spellblade proc. And to stack things in their favor more, Essence Reaver means they can skip buying one or two of these items and STILL have 40% CDR, because it gives up to 30% with any crit item (something every AD carry already buys, and even many bruisers now buy it because of how triforce was changed).

Contrast this to AP CDR items, which are basically all: Aimed at supports (Ardent Censer, Zeke's, Frost Queen, Banner of Command) Aimed at auto-attack reliant champs (Nashor's, Lich Bane, Sheen)

The three generally applicable ones are Athene's, Morello's, and WOTA. Both Athene's and Morello's occupy the same niche, and WOTA is garbage on most champions, especially since they added Gunblade, which benefits mages more (think about it: if you're taking WOTA, it is for the sustain, and Gunblade gives more sustain and also has a useful active).

The Yetii RiderNov 17, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T9JHVmZv,comment-id=0005000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-17T20:23:18.889+0000)

The issue is that ADCs and AD casters don't have to sacrifice anything to get 40% CDR. They don't have to pay extra for wasted stats like >150% mana regen or spellblade (which isn't wasted on ADCs but is on most mages).

They can grab Youmuu's, Black Cleaver, Sheen, Death's Dance, Triforce, Essence Reaver, Dervish Blade, Warrior enchantment. I could see many of those items being viable, and the stats/effects they give aren't wasted.

Each of these items does something useful -- Death's Dance for survivability and AD-caster lifesteal, ER for crit and mana, Dervish Blade for the QSS active, Black Cleaver for armor-shredding, Youmuu's for the AS/MS active, Sheen/Triforce for spellblade proc. And to stack things in their favor more, Essence Reaver means they can skip buying one or two of these items and STILL have 40% CDR, because it gives up to 30% with any crit item (something every AD carry already buys, and even many bruisers now buy it because of how triforce was changed).

Contrast this to AP CDR items, which are basically all: Aimed at supports (Ardent Censer, Zeke's, Frost Queen, Banner of Command) Aimed at auto-attack reliant champs (Nashor's, Lich Bane, Sheen)

The three generally applicable ones are Athene's, Morello's, and WOTA. Both Athene's and Morello's occupy the same niche, and WOTA is garbage on most champions, especially since they added Gunblade, which benefits mages more (think about it: if you're taking WOTA, it is for the sustain, and Gunblade gives more sustain and also has a useful active).

You're wrong. The thing that AD casters give up when they itemize for CDR is their resource itself. Outside of ER (which is chance-based, not guaranteed) AD Casters don't gain a resource mitigation tool, which becomes MUCH stronger when paired with CDR. Mana regeneration as a stat has much more value when paired with CDR, because they complement each other so well. If I have 40% CDR as Graves, great! I still only have 7 or 8 casts of my Q allowed before I just empty my mana tank.

Kitten of EvilNov 17, 20151 votes

Well but ER is the main culprit we're talking about here. Usually paired with 20% crit from somewhere else, for a total of 40% crit and 40% CDR. That's pretty reliable mana replenishing right there, so long as you're auto-attacking or CSing in between. And in most situations, you'll have that opportunity. Split-pushing? Crit some minions. Sieging? Crit some minions. Taking baron/dragon? They can be crit too. The only time it may be harder is during teamfights, but even then, most ADCs will be auto-attacking SOMEONE. I'm talking your Graves and Corki and Ezreal and Lucians.

The Yetii RiderNov 18, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T9JHVmZv,comment-id=000500020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-17T23:48:24.072+0000)

Well but ER is the main culprit we're talking about here. Usually paired with 20% crit from somewhere else, for a total of 40% crit and 40% CDR. That's pretty reliable mana replenishing right there, so long as you're auto-attacking or CSing in between. And in most situations, you'll have that opportunity. Split-pushing? Crit some minions. Sieging? Crit some minions. Taking baron/dragon? They can be crit too. The only time it may be harder is during teamfights, but even then, most ADCs will be auto-attacking SOMEONE. I'm talking your Graves and Corki and Ezreal and Lucians.

ER gives a total of 30% CDR. 10% from the item, up to 20% elsewhere.

The crit restores 2% of your missing or max mana, can't remember which, which is a single tick of Chalice. If Chalice was so efficient that you never needed mana again, everyone would build it.

RisurinNov 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Here are your options as an Adc:

and 1 of: OR and 2 of: OR 4 of:

are restricted to jungling adcs.

are both poor besides certain champions with synergy with them.

is a situational item.

Looking at this, I'd say adcs definitely have it better.

for ER to give 30% you need a zeal item, so its not like you get 30% of only 1 item, but 2. Also not every adc will get triforce/ghostblade, dervish isnt in SR as far as i know, jungle item as adc mean they have smite which is terrible for lane, there is almost always a better option then cleaver for ADCs. ER+Triforce cost a lot as they are both some of the most costly items in the game. CDR boots means they dont have Zerkers which are really efficient at the moment, and compensate a lot for the lost of AS most zeal item got (you know adc generally scale better with as than cdr). Furthermore, also note that not many ADCs actually benefits from capped CDR only 2 or 3 does out of 20ish.

Then I see you also forget that mages traditionnally are midlaners, that get bluebuffs normally in games. thats +10% cdr.

Then i looked at your selection of ap champion that are "in dire" need of ap cdr itemization. Katarina literally has a passive that helps refresh her CDs, she doesnt need more cdr, she needs dmg to proc it. Same with Akali, she doesnt need CDR, she needs to kill people and get R resets. also Energy as a ressource doesnt go that well with cdr, since it just make you go out of energy faster. Its better to get more AP to get more value out of the energy you use. Kennen and Rumble dont need CDr either. they need way to survive (with zhonya or rylai for examples) to be able to do their things (AoE tons of dmg, Slows/Stuns, etc). Just like Akali, they have Energy/heat as a ressource which doesnt work well with cdr. I can see how its harder for Vlad and Mordekaiser to get CDR, but they pretty strong with it so i can imagine that's some balancing involved with this. Boots + Will is 20%. I can easily see both of these as a solo laner going with spirit visage since it goes well with will/their kit (and is really good against other APs. It must more effective on they are mostly sustain mages, and with their build in healing + will 15% healing on spells + 20% increase healing on SV + 8% from mastery, they can heal for a lot. I also wouldnt it put aside the possibility of Lichbane on mordekaiser because of how is Q work. AP CDR Rek'sai ? so you can get that burrowed Q dmg ? because thats the only ap ratio. Thats just bad.

YrzenNov 18, 20151 votes

I'm not saying there's an underlying problem here, just that Adcs seem to have more viable options for hitting the cap without building suboptimal items.

willuwontuNov 17, 20152 votes

{quoted} Here are your options as an Adc:

and 1 of:

Does not give 40%

OR and 2 of:

Black cleaver is better this season, but still very situational for adc's and definitely not grabbed with Triforce. That'd be like saying mages can go item 3174 and item 3165 . Adc's shouldn't be grabbing both or iether really.

OR 4 of: **

They can only grab item 3158 item 3142 item 3078 item 3812 if they're not jungling

are restricted to jungling adcs.

are both poor besides certain champions with synergy with them.

is a situational item.

Looking at this, I'd say adcs definitely have it better.

Also item 3137 isn't even available on Summoner's Rift

You forgot the item 1402 item 1410 item 1414 Mage Jungler CDR items. If you're gonna have ad jungle items gotta have ap as well.

YrzenNov 18, 20151 votes

Just about every Adc builds Infinity Edge and then another crit item even after that, so I didn't feel it necessary to mention those items in regards to essence reaver, since it was comparing build path options rather than value.

Yep, BC+TF is my mistake. So was Dervish. Yes, yes I did forget the mage jungler items.

I'd redo the list from scratch if I could be bothered.

willuwontuNov 18, 20151 votes

To be fair ER + Triforce does give 40% i was wrong about that.

I do think that Mages do need another AP + 10% CDR item, i just have no idea how it would look though. (no DFG pls)). Also would AP's really go for an item that gives reduced AP because of the CDR on it. Honestly Zeke's might actually be decent for mid laners this season so that they can synergize with their AD junglers (YI, Xin, etc.) for ganks. Not optimal, but decent.

ER could use a nerf to the potential CDR (20% total) , but overall it's a good start on its rework to make ADCs actually want to take it.

The only item change I disagree with completely is Merc Scimitar, there was no need to toss lifesteal on it.

Phoenix Kotori Nov 17, 20151 votes

I mean if you're including warrior shouldn't item 1402 item 1410 item 1414 item 3092 should shown for mages? New frostqueens is strong on AP supports.

Also item 3071 + item 3078 isn't really an option you waste a lot of value with the phage passives wasted.

item 3137 isn't on SR fyi.

Mages probably need another decent 10% item, and item 3165 + item 3174 is a viable option for some champions.

YrzenNov 18, 20151 votes

That's fair enough, I forgot to include the AP jungle items.

Frost Queen's is solely for supports, and I made the list with an eye towards selfish mages, since they're the ones that need damage. Supports have much different itemization, and I discluded those items because they aren't options for those "selfish mages".

item 3165 + item 3174 Is viable on so few champions, it felt wrong to list it. Even if it's viable, there's a fair chance it's not an ideal build path.

item 3071 + item 3078 Is again my fault, I don't play many AD champions compared to my AP champions.

item 3137 Whee I'm dumb. The league wiki said jack about its availability and the in-game item sets don't give any details.

Lex LazuriteNov 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Here are your options as an AP mage:

and 1 of: OR and 1 of: OR 1 of: and 2 of: OR 4 of:

is pointless unless you have heals or shields, and even then isn't likely to be an ideal choice, even as a support. are all poor besides certain champions with synergy with them is a poor option if the enemy team has little or no AP, and isn't ideal for most mages.

Two options require Nashor's synergy. A third is the most common route and forces you to choose between 2 meh options if you don't have Lichbane synergy. The last path requires items with far better options (with less cd) for just about every single champion. along with AP and are completely barred from all of the routes because of mana associated with items in all of them.

Are all terrible for mages. You might as well count them for Adcs if you want to take them into account. Same goes for in a solo lane.

Here are your options as an Adc:

and 1 of: OR and 2 of: OR 4 of:

are restricted to jungling adcs.

are both poor besides certain champions with synergy with them.

is a situational item.

Looking at this, I'd say adcs definitely have it better.

I take CDR runes on my mages. :/

FusarixNov 17, 20159 votes

Agreed, I don't get why ADC's get all these awesome items that offer CDR and mages don't. Its MUCH more important on them.

ChaoticPineconeNov 17, 20155 votes

This is actually the one part of the ADC overhaul that i agreed with. It seems that the game is going toward having full CDR lategame with a "normal" build. Bruisers get it. Tanks get it. Mages get it. Assassins that need it get it. Junglers get it. Supports get it. ADCs should as well.

I just have a little problem with the abundance of crit. Or, i dont know. When the skills are strong compared to their autoattacks (Graves/Kog, looking at you) increase the lategame cooldown.

FafliXNov 17, 20152 votes

Only that mages don´t get it. They are the only class that does not get 40 (or 45) % in the lategame with a normal build.

softest boyNov 17, 20151 votes

Yep. The main class that relies on spells to even do their job in a game can reach averagely 20-30% in a game. Basically forces you to get CDR runes.

ChaoticPineconeNov 18, 20151 votes

Not sure on your build, but there are many options.

You can run CDR per level, boots of Lucidity, Lich bane/Nashors, Blue Buff, Blue Pot. Even Zekes is pretty damn good - 20% increase in AP lategame gives you around 100-150 AP for those few seconds, making it one of the cheapest and strongest AP items in the game. Or Banner for a little side lane pressure and MR.

softest boyNov 18, 20151 votes

Considering I main Syndra - I'm not going to be building Lich bane/Nashors, and won't be going boots of Lucidity if I'm not willing to trade it for Pen Boots. So there goes 20% CDR. Zekes could be good, but it's not going be doing much if I build it in the laning phase as Syndra. And yes Blue pot/buff does give you CDR, but Lucian can get 30% CDR from a single item. I wouldn't count temporary sources anyways.

So yeah, of course AP items can reach up to 45%+ in general, but when you're playing certain mages, they only have two to three viable CDR items.

If I played Syndra, I'd only get Athene's/Morellonomicon for my mana regen. Then what do I get if I don't want boots of Lucidity? Will of the Ancients isn't good on her. Therefore I'm forced to go with CDR runes, since Syndra benefits very well with CDR.

ChaoticPineconeNov 18, 20151 votes

A couple points that need to be made:

Generally Zekes wouldnt be bought in laning unless you really want to shut down your enemy laner at the expense of your own damage. But its still a viable option for reaching max CDR.
If youre not willing to "trade" Lucidity for Sorcs, I would argue thats your choice. If you make the choice not to buy CDR, then you dont get CDR. You can play Syndra building ROA, Seraphs, Deathcap, Voidstaff, Zhonyas and run 0% CDR if you want. Thats a distinctive choice in playstyle.
Luican cant get 30% CDR from a single item. It requires another crit item to get 30% CDR. And if he rushes Essence Reaver, he sacrifices damage for Mana and CDR, as his crits will only hit for 200% instead of 250% by rushing IE, as well as the lower crit chance from the items itself. If he rushes IE and Essence Reaver, its a very expensive 2 item build with 0 AS. If you rush IE, Essence Reaver, then a Zeal item, its a 3 item build with no Armor Pen or Lifesteal.

Lady HammerlockNov 17, 20153 votes

I'm quite sure logically champions that cast spells would have an easier time getting cdr then ADC's the logic to me just doesn't add up

RisurinNov 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm quite sure logically champions that cast spells would have an easier time getting cdr then ADC's the logic to me just doesn't add up

some ADCs are more casters then auto-attacks. Think about Ezreal, Lucian, Corki, etc

Kitten of EvilNov 17, 20151 votes

But all mages are more casters than auto-attacks. Well except for maybe TF and Fizz.

RisurinNov 17, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T9JHVmZv,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2015-11-17T16:19:54.303+0000)

But all mages are more casters than auto-attacks. Well except for maybe TF and Fizz.

If you put those as Auto's mages, i would add kayle, azir and even diana as well. We can agree that some mages are more auto-attack based than casters, just as some Marksman are more Casters then auto based.

OdinakosNov 18, 20151 votes

Diana is def not aa based. It helps her(specially while jungling) but it is not her focus. Her burst and dive are her main traits. Exept if you go some crazy bruiser AA build and Nasus asks wtf is moonsilver blade that did 50% of the damage. Hue!

QuentonNov 17, 20152 votes

I don't mind ADC's having the simple options for it, but I do wish Itemization was better for mages. As stated, trying to max out on CDR is just difficult for mages

FusarixNov 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't mind ADC's having the simple options for it, but I do wish Itemization was better for mages. As stated, trying to max out on CDR is just difficult for mages

Yeah, if I want the 45% cdr on champions like AP Ezreal, I have to go lucidity boots, morello and lich. Not many high damage options there. SOOoo it technically isn't even worth it.