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Would it hurt the game to make a defensive support that doesn't rely on shields and heals?

Josh Sand··3 votes·1,110 views

So the new support is leaked, and I gotta say, given the overloaded kits that have been released these last couple of years, I'm pretty disappointed.

Why is it so hard to add a mechanically intensive, high mastery support champion to the game? Is Thresh it? That's all the support role gets for this category? Meanwhile on the rest of the map:

Aatrox Akali Ekko Fiora Gangplank Irelia Azir Leblanc Katarina Shaco Sylas Yasuo Zed Draven Kaisa Kalista LeeSin Riven Vayne

There are so many cool things that all of these champions do that are unique to them, and enchanters get point and click shields... You have damn near 20 champions that are legit candidates for high complexity one-trick characters. How is it that you can come up with dozens of abilities for fighters and assassins, time after time, yet Enchanters can't even get something that's remotely in the same ball park as them?

I'm so tired of the support role getting bogged down with simplistic kits and cheesy mages. But honestly, I should only be mad at myself for sinking this much time into a role that's filled almost entirely with simplistic kits.

I was hoping that someday the support role could get a champion as fun to play as Gankplank, or Akali, or Yasuo, or Azir, or any other the other 15 fucking champions that designers tried to break the game with. The champion design team obviously doesn't give a shit about creating support kits with the same panache that they do with literally every other role in this game. I was a hopeful idiot for believing that that might not be the case.

15 Comments

Kalikain2 votes

This support is introducing a brand new mechanic only she has. She leaps from allies becoming untargettable. Did you want another hook champion when the last support had a hook too?

Josh Sand1 votes

My point centers on the mechanical demands, mastery curve, and uniqueness of the above champions. The new support jumps to an ally, like Lee Sin or Rakan or Braum. The fact that she goes untargetable (like if Kalista ulted her, or if Tahm Kench ate her, or if she used a Zhonyas), isnt all that interesting to me personally.

Champions like Azir, Gangplank, Akali, Gangplank, or Yasuo force you to play against their own little mini game (or at least you have to watch them play it and hope they make a mistake). Thresh and Blitz and Pyke kind of fall in that category, but Thresh is the one with a really high mastery ceiling.

I was hoping that Riot could at least try to do the same thing for the enchanter class, but instead, we get yet another mechanically simple shield and heal bot.

If Riot can spend the resources to create a high impact support that nobody asked for (Pyke), and create a meta impact with said champion, I don't understand why they don't throw some real creative ideas out there and try to make a high mastery enchanter for people to one trick. I really don't think its asking too much for them to spread their stronger ideas across more of the classes - esp when they are already as concentrated as they are right now

TengenToppaGnar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ixi Josh Sand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qNazYd3j,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-04-26T04:10:51.583+0000)

My point centers on the mechanical demands, mastery curve, and uniqueness of the above champions. The new support jumps to an ally, like Lee Sin or Rakan or Braum. The fact that she goes untargetable (like if Kalista ulted her, or if Tahm Kench ate her, or if she used a Zhonyas), isnt all that interesting to me personally.

Champions like Azir, Gangplank, Akali, Gangplank, or Yasuo force you to play against their own little mini game (or at least you have to watch them play it and hope they make a mistake). Thresh and Blitz and Pyke kind of fall in that category, but Thresh is the one with a really high mastery ceiling.

I was hoping that Riot could at least try to do the same thing for the enchanter class, but instead, we get yet another mechanically simple shield and heal bot.

If Riot can spend the resources to create a high impact support that nobody asked for (Pyke), and create a meta impact with said champion, I don't understand why they don't throw some real creative ideas out there and try to make a high mastery enchanter for people to one trick. I really don't think its asking too much for them to spread their stronger ideas across more of the classes - esp when they are already as concentrated as they are right now

. . . . I'd say Gnar should be on that list unlike Riven. There is nothing mechanical about her. She just builds max CD and makes a mockery of the game.

Josh Sand1 votes

Riven used to be challenging until Conqueror and Spear of Shojin came out. Design-wise, she should be a difficult champion to master and win with. But yea I agree, she makes a complete mockery of the game.

Kalikain1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ixi Josh Sand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qNazYd3j,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-04-26T04:10:51.583+0000)

My point centers on the mechanical demands, mastery curve, and uniqueness of the above champions. The new support jumps to an ally, like Lee Sin or Rakan or Braum. The fact that she goes untargetable (like if Kalista ulted her, or if Tahm Kench ate her, or if she used a Zhonyas), isnt all that interesting to me personally.

Champions like Azir, Gangplank, Akali, Gangplank, or Yasuo force you to play against their own little mini game (or at least you have to watch them play it and hope they make a mistake). Thresh and Blitz and Pyke kind of fall in that category, but Thresh is the one with a really high mastery ceiling.

I was hoping that Riot could at least try to do the same thing for the enchanter class, but instead, we get yet another mechanically simple shield and heal bot.

If Riot can spend the resources to create a high impact support that nobody asked for (Pyke), and create a meta impact with said champion, I don't understand why they don't throw some real creative ideas out there and try to make a high mastery enchanter for people to one trick. I really don't think its asking too much for them to spread their stronger ideas across more of the classes - esp when they are already as concentrated as they are right now

Heres the thing though, supports arent the highlight of the bottom lane. They support the adcs mini games. Jhins traps and 4th shot Ezreal WQ combo Cait traps Tristana bombs Sivir wave clear Kalista jumping and spear transfers Vayne 3 shot combo Xayah feather set up Etc etc.

The supports can change how those games are played ultimately, but they arent the directors.

Josh Sand1 votes

{quoted}

Heres the thing though, supports arent the highlight of the bottom lane. They support the adcs mini games. Jhins traps and 4th shot Ezreal WQ combo Cait traps Tristana bombs Sivir wave clear Kalista jumping and spear transfers Vayne 3 shot combo Xayah feather set up Etc etc.

The supports can change how those games are played ultimately, but they arent the directors.

I think if you ask any high elo bot laner, they will tell you that the support can easily dictate how the lane goes for them. The ADC's goal is to safely soak up as much farm as they possibly can, while avoiding getting ganked. Sometimes that includes managing the wave, winning trades, taking plates, denying farm, etc.

But just putting that aside, that's not even what I'm asking for. What I am saying is that this latest support design was a missed opportunity to broaden the skill ceiling of enchanter supports. Enchanters typically have mechanically simplistic, yet high-impact decision based abilities.

What I wanted to see was an Enchanter with a highly sophisticated kit that is as mechanically challenging to execute in the same way that an Akali or an Irelia is. It's plainly obvious that there are tons of zany ideas that are flying out of Riot these last couple of years, and it's really frustrating to see all of those great ideas going everywhere else but to support champions.

I've been trying really hard to keep an open mind about some of the bullshit kits that has entered the game over the last couple of years. This entire time I was thinking to myself, "OK well maybe this is the plan for all of their classes, so just hold out until Support gets something amazing too."

And yet, here we are. Another goddamn simple-ass Support champion.

If they want to keep adding in batshit crazy ass kits to the game, fine. But at least spread that shit across the map. It's so insanely frustrating to see Riot continue to push the envelope with Assassins and Briusers and Fighters, and then we get shit like this. It's pretty fucking sad honestly.

youthere2 votes

Bard? Zilean? Karma? Alistar?

Like I think you're really off here.

Josh Sand1 votes

None of those champions are even close to the mechanical difficulty that any of the above champions I listed are. They are high impact champions for sure, but the mechanical demands on those champs are closer to a Lux or Zyra than they are a Lee Sin or Azir or Akali

youthere1 votes

Disagree.

I don't think Ekko, Riven, Sylas, Kat, GP, and certainly not Irelia have mechanics that are any more complex than Bard, Karma, Zilean, Zyra, etc. Do these champs take a bit more skill to master? Sure. But are the mechanics themselves difficult? Not really.

Josh Sand1 votes

If you honestly think that Bard has the same mechanical complexity as Irelia or Gangplank...

I dunno man... good luck with your climb

ı Sona ı1 votes

{quoted}

Bard? Zilean? Karma? Alistar?

Like I think you're really off here.

Bard and Alistar have heals, Karma has shield.

Braum (its a damage reduction wall + ranged skill blocker.

Zyra (snaaaaaaaaares from the bushes)

Annie (one stun and done)

Blitzcrank (grab = death)

Ornn (late game power boooost)

Heimerdinger (the turrets, the turrets!!! And stun)

Kled (YouTube kled support, ffs so hard to face honestly)

Leona (all about the wombo comboing)

Maokai (plants and knockbacks and snares)

Malphite, Neeko, Poppy.

Plenty of support options that don't rely on shields and heals to be effective. Maybe you just aren't playing enough choices?

youthere1 votes

Bard, Ali, and Karma do indeed have heals or shields, but I guess I mention them because 1. There's some interesting mechanics behind each, and 2. You don't really pick Bard or Ali for their heals.

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

First of all, Pyke

Second of all, I think it's too early to say how mechanically intense this champ will be. Even if we do have the broad strokes correct, there may be some unexpected complexity there. Just wait and see.

Josh Sand1 votes

I would say Pyke is a high mastery curve champion if they ever allow him to be punished for failing an engage, but from my experience, he's a really simple champion to execute successfully.

I've been primarily an Enchanter player for most of my time playing this game, and I managed to get almost a 60% win rate on him in just under 100 games last season. He's not nearly as difficult to play as Thresh is, in my opinion. I would play him more to climb, but I think the entire premise of his play pattern is gross. I picked the support role to support other players, not soup up kill credit.

There might be some complexity to the new champion, but those are going to be based more on the decisions made by the player, rather than accuracy of execution. She's likely to play like a combination of Lulu and Rakan, which could be fun no doubt, but it doesn't add a new dimension to the class, like some of the more recent reworks and newer champions.

Metal Janna1 votes

Non instant shield: Orianna Non targetted shield: Lux Supports who don't shield OR heal: Bard Neeko Galio Zyra Xerath Lissandra Every single hook support that isn't Thresh.

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