Ward Hopping

SlashStriker·Mar 14, 2017·1 votes·1,203 views

Why is Yi not being able to Ward Hop but Lee Sin and Jax are able to?

Why is Jax able to Hop on Ally units as well?

28 Comments

MagicFlyingLlamaMar 14, 20171 votes

Why not?

SlashStrikerMar 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Why not?

yeah thats what i am asking Why Yi is not being able to do that but Jax and Lee Sin are able to?

TyrekGoldenspearMar 14, 20171 votes

How would Yi ward hop?

What spell does he have that works functionally like Lee's leap and Jax's leap?

SlashStrikerMar 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

How would Yi ward hop?

What spell does he have that works functionally like Lee's leap and Jax's leap?

Yi got Alpha Strike that requires him a target. Same goes for Lee sin and Jax that got targeted ability that allows then to jump to ally or enemy

So why are they able to do that But Yi is not being able to

TyrekGoldenspearMar 14, 20172 votes

For this to work you would need to code it so that Yi can Alpha to allied units as well.

So what's stopping him from doing it uncontrollably?

For example, say you have an enemy in a minion wave and you alpha strike. He doesn't have much minions, but you want to poke him with an Alpha.

So you Alpha Strike to your minion to "bridge" to him, but you just fly across your minion wave at random and maybe hit an enemy minion.

This just adds a whole other mess of interactions with Yi's Alpha and makes it possible to dodge or otherwise ignore a Yi's alpha if you're in his wave based on RNG.

SlashStrikerMar 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

For this to work you would need to code it so that Yi can Alpha to allied units as well.

So what's stopping him from doing it uncontrollably?

For example, say you have an enemy in a minion wave and you alpha strike. He doesn't have much minions, but you want to poke him with an Alpha.

So you Alpha Strike to your minion to "bridge" to him, but you just fly across your minion wave at random and maybe hit an enemy minion.

This just adds a whole other mess of interactions with Yi's Alpha and makes it possible to dodge or otherwise ignore a Yi's alpha if you're in his wave based on RNG.

Random? You know how alpha strike even functions? It always targets nearest enemy unit in a chain. There is 0 randomness here

Alpha Strike mana cost is 70..110 btw

TyrekGoldenspearMar 14, 20172 votes

It always targets nearest enemy unit in a chain.

Here's the thing though, that would have to be removed if you want him to jump to allied units.

SlashStrikerMar 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Here's the thing though, that would have to be removed if you want him to jump to allied units.

Why would it be removed? Jax and Lee Sin got AoE damage and Yi is not suppose to?

TyrekGoldenspearMar 14, 20171 votes

That AOE damage comes from other spells.

LeeSin His ward hop is single target. It's the E (I think) that he usually hits right after the leap that does the AOE.

Jax His leap is also single target. It's his stun that is AOE and does damage. His leap itself has nothing to do with it.

So what you are really asking for is for Yi to have AOE damage of any kind, which his entire kit lacks save for Alpha's several-units-in-rapid-succession kind of AOE.

SlashStrikerMar 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That AOE damage comes from other spells.

His ward hop is single target. It's the E (I think) that he usually hits right after that does the AOE.

His leap is also single target. It's his stun that is AOE and does damage. His leap itself has nothing to do with it.

So what you are really asking for is for Yi to have AOE damage of any kind, which his entire kit lacks save for Alpha's several-units-in-rapid-succession kind of AOE.

So you are saying that Yi is not suppose to have AoE ability AND Ward Hop while Jax and Lee Sin are able to?

The purpose if ally / ward targeting for Yi is Escape just like Lee and Jax are able to

TyrekGoldenspearMar 14, 20171 votes

I'm not saying anything about who does or doesn't deserve stuff.

I'm just telling you how it is.

SlashStrikerMar 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I'm not saying anything about who does or doesn't deserve stuff.

I'm just telling you how it is.

Why would you need to tell me how it is since I already know that? Otherwise I would probably not mention it

I wanna know why Jax and Lee Sin got better Safety than Yi

cuddlykitten4Mar 14, 20171 votes

A. Yi can't be touched in his Alpha. Jax and Lee Sin can get hit mid jump so there's that.

B. A ward IS an allied unit.

C. Yi can only hit enemy units, do you see the difference?

GankedByWindowsMar 14, 20171 votes

The reason why they have it is because they are old champions. Ward hopping is a relic of the past. Riot looks to take it away when they can (see Kat rework). With that said, a lot of Lee Sin's power is reliant on his ability to wardhop, so be careful what you wish for. If they take that from him they're going to buff him somewhere else.

For Jax I agree that it should be removed, but he needs some love anyway so I would like to see him looked at.

SlashStrikerMar 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The reason why they have it is because they are old champions. Ward hopping is a relic of the past. Riot looks to take it away when they can (see Kat rework). With that said, a lot of Lee Sin's power is reliant on his ability to wardhop, so be careful what you wish for. If they take that from him they're going to buff him somewhere else.

For Jax I agree that it should be removed, but he needs some love anyway so I would like to see him looked at.

So basically you are saying that Lee sin should have Ward Hop to make plays but Yi is not suppose to make plays?

GankedByWindowsMar 14, 20171 votes

I'm saying Lee Sin relies on wardhops and a large part of his power comes from that.

SlashStrikerMar 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I'm saying Lee Sin relies on wardhops and a large part of his power comes from that.

Well I am saying that when you play Yi you should feel like you are playing a Skirmisher Champion.

Currently Yi feels like a Diver and not Skirmisher

Specific Champion Subclass / Class and Subclass

GankedByWindowsMar 14, 20171 votes

Does he? He fits pretty well into the skirmisher description from your first link.

"Unlike Assassins, Skirmishers aim to shred through any nearby enemy that approaches. Because Skirmishers lack high-end burst damage or reliable ways of closing in on high-priority targets, they are instead armed with situationally powerful defensive tools to survive in the fray, along with extreme sustained damage to cut down even the most durable targets"

Yi: -lacks high end burst damage -lacks a reliable way of closing in high priority targets (he has to burn one of his defensive tools and its fairly short range compared to Vi's Q>R which they use as their example of a diver. -Situationally powerful defensive tools fits his Q and W very well. Q is only as powerful as the ability you're dodging, and W is only really reliable if they have burned their CC. -Extreme sustained damage also fits Yi very well between Wuju Style, his passive, and the extensions on his ultimate

In any case, as I said earlier they're trying to phase out wardhops, not put more in the game. I think yi does need some help, but with his current kit it is really hard to balance it for both low and high elo games. He really needs some kit changes to be balance able

SlashStrikerMar 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Does he? He fits pretty well into the skirmisher description from your first link.

"Unlike Assassins, Skirmishers aim to shred through any nearby enemy that approaches. Because Skirmishers lack high-end burst damage or reliable ways of closing in on high-priority targets, they are instead armed with situationally powerful defensive tools to survive in the fray, along with extreme sustained damage to cut down even the most durable targets"

Yi: -lacks high end burst damage -lacks a reliable way of closing in high priority targets (he has to burn one of his defensive tools and its fairly short range compared to Vi's Q>R which they use as their example of a diver. -Situationally powerful defensive tools fits his Q and W very well. Q is only as powerful as the ability you're dodging, and W is only really reliable if they have burned their CC. -Extreme sustained damage also fits Yi very well between Wuju Style, his passive, and the extensions on his ultimate

In any case, as I said earlier they're trying to phase out wardhops, not put more in the game. I think yi does need some help, but with his current kit it is really hard to balance it for both low and high elo games. He really needs some kit changes to be balance able

No where its said that they should not have escape-ability or way to disengage a fight or having any escape mechanism at all.

Yasuo got billion dashes for instance and can cc his opponents to escape

GankedByWindowsMar 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No where its said that they should not have escape-ability or way to disengage a fight or having any escape mechanism at all.

It doesn't say they have to have one either. Yi already has massive speed if you pick good fights for an escape, as well as partial resets on Q and an extension on R. Kill someone, use the extended movespeed time to run.

Yasuo got billion dashes for instance and can cc his opponents to escape

Yasuo needs a target for his dashes, so he can't use that for an escape unless you're fighting in minions or near monsters. So if wants to use it then you know exactly where he is going. Additionally, If you pick fights away from those, he has no way to escape at all, unlike Yi who has massive movespeed on demand. If Yasuo is using his CC to escape, he isn't killing you and as Yi, you can dodge it with Q, which also prevents him from using his ultimate.

You're also ignoring the fact that Riot is trying to take out ward hops, not put them in. -Kat's rework took hers away -Braum was released without the ability to wardhop even though his dash is used on friendly targets.

SlashStrikerMar 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't say they have to have one either. Yi already has massive speed if you pick good fights for an escape, as well as partial resets on Q and an extension on R. Kill someone, use the extended movespeed time to run.

Many other champions got way more movement speed than Yi. For instance Ekko and Fiora. There were so many times that Highlander was countered by Tier 1 Boots

Highlander + Ghost < Ekko's Bonus movement speed on his passive

All Jax needs to do to catch Yi with Highlander actived is Ward / Unit hopping

Yasuo needs a target for his dashes, so he can't use that for an escape unless you're fighting in minions or near monsters. So if wants to use it then you know exactly where he is going. Additionally, If you pick fights away from those, he has no way to escape at all, unlike Yi who has massive movespeed on demand. If Yasuo is using his CC to escape, he isn't killing you and as Yi, you can dodge it with Q, which also prevents him from using his ultimate.

So how is Yi suppose to escape from ganks? So every other champion should have Escape Mechanism but Yi should not? Yeah sure if you call 20% movement speed for 7 seconds massive movement speed... sure. Dayum so fast

You're also ignoring the fact that Riot is trying to take out ward hops, not put them in. -Kat's rework took hers away -Braum was released without the ability to wardhop even though his dash is used on friendly targets.

and still they can target allies to escape. Yi cannot And Braum is a tank but he can escape by Hopping to ally unit. Thats how to tank

GankedByWindowsMar 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Many other champions got way more movement speed than Yi. For instance Ekko and Fiora. There were so many times that Highlander was countered by Tier 1 Boots

If the enemy builds for mobility, and you don't, maybe they deserve to catch you. If you built those boots too, you have a massive advantage. I'm not sure exactly how the movement speed formula works with dimishing returns and all that, but if you're on the same footing itemwise, 25% at level 1 scaling to 45% at 3 should be more than enough.

Highlander + Ghost < Ekko's Bonus movement speed on his passive

Again, not sure but I'll take your word for it. Sure, but his is NOT on demand like Yi's ultimate is. He has to hit someone 3 times and take all the punishment for it first. If he can't get that off, he gets no movespeed. The difference is reliability. Plus, this is one champion. Ekko is one of the only champions that can even attempt to match Yi's speed.

All Jax needs to do to catch Yi with Highlander actived is Ward / Unit hopping

if you're close, absolutely. However, that one hop is all he has. Yi can then proceed to outrun him because your ult lasts 7 seconds assuming no extensions, which double the time.

So how is Yi suppose to escape from ganks? So every other champion should have Escape Mechanism but Yi should not? Yeah sure if you call 20% movement speed for 7 seconds massive movement speed... sure. Dayum so fast

Yi can escape by dodging CC with Q and running with Highlander. Alternatively, you can ghost when you see the jungler on a ward fairly easily. In lane I would recommend flash for easier gank escapes. Yi isn't played in lane often for a reason.

Every champion does not have an escape mechanism. Tell me what Ashe's "escape" is? Her dodgeable ult that has a shortened stun duration the closer someone is? What about Aurelion Sol? Sona?

Yi's movespeed is 25/35/45%. That is actually a lot when you have movespeed items, or even first boots. If you build ghostblade or zeal items like most Yi's do, that further increases movespeed.

and still they can target allies to escape. Yi cannot And Braum is a tank but he can escape by Hopping to ally unit. Thats how to tank

They can indeed. Not every champion needs to have the same abilities. Kat and Braum also don't have a movespeed ability, should they get it because Yi does and they don't?

SlashStrikerMar 14, 20171 votes

If you try to gank a Jax he will go to the bush. Then if you get close to him he will E and CC you then he will hope away either on a ward or ally unit. And there we got. He is now safe at his own turret

So what can Yi do here if he lanes? Kill or die. Thats all the options he got

{quoted}

If the enemy builds for mobility, and you don't, maybe they deserve to catch you. If you built those boots too, you have a massive advantage. I'm not sure exactly how the movement speed formula works with dimishing returns and all that, but if you're on the same footing itemwise, 25% at level 1 scaling to 45% at 3 should be more than enough.

So i must have Flash and Movement speed items to escape but jax, lee sin, Riven, Fizz and so on are completely fine to escape without any items having Mobility and Hard CC at the same time. Seems fair

Again, not sure but I'll take your word for it. Sure, but his is NOT on demand like Yi's ultimate is. He has to hit someone 3 times and take all the punishment for it first. If he can't get that off, he gets no movespeed. The difference is reliability. Plus, this is one champion. Ekko is one of the only champions that can even attempt to match Yi's speed.

Yeah Ultimate + Summoner Ability vs Ekko Passive ability. Yep pretty damn fair i guess. You got a point

if you're close, absolutely. However, that one hop is all he has. Yi can then proceed to outrun him because your ult lasts 7 seconds assuming no extensions, which double the time.

All he has. Yeah seems fair with CC and Bonus tankyness that is not interrupted by CC. Yeah fair point there. But honestly if i have to trade Meditate Healing for better escape mechanic I would on 100%. If you don't take damage what will you heal? Because you know. Yi is a tank after All. I build Frozen Malet, Warmog, Randuin, Spirit Visage every single game on Yi

Yi can escape by dodging CC with Q and running with Highlander. Alternatively, you can ghost when you see the jungler on a ward fairly easily. In lane I would recommend flash for easier gank escapes. Yi isn't played in lane often for a reason.

Yep obviously how many times you played Yi on a lane cause... it kinda doesn't work that way when you get ganked but seems you know better

Every champion does not have an escape mechanism. Tell me what Ashe's "escape" is? Her dodgeable ult that has a shortened stun duration the closer someone is? What about Aurelion Sol? Sona?

Well not every champion but Sona can still Ult to CC her opponents then E away

Yi's movespeed is 25/35/45%. That is actually a lot when you have movespeed items, or even first boots. If you build ghostblade or zeal items like most Yi's do, that further increases movespeed.

25% ms on champion level 6 ULTIMATE ability... Wow yeah... Thats pretty damn massive. So Yi has to rely on items but Riven, Jax, Lee sin can cc their opponents just just away and without any items or whatsoever

They can indeed. Not every champion needs to have the same abilities. Kat and Braum also don't have a movespeed ability, should they get it because Yi does and they don't?

Well yeah braum has no bonus movement speed but still can make teamplay by hopping to ally and he is tank btw Kata got bonus movement speed on her W btw

GankedByWindowsMar 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So i must have Flash and Movement speed items to escape but jax, lee sin, Riven, Fizz and so on are completely fine to escape without any items. Seems fair

If you want to escape, you need to have the same movement items as your opponent yes. Because then you pop your ultimate and you're much faster. If you both have no movement speed items, you also escape. If you allow your opponent to have more speed than you, that is your fault.

Yeah Ultimate + Summoner Ability vs Ekko Passive ability. Yep pretty damn fair i guess. You got a point

Reliability is huge. If Ekko had +600 mobility but had to AA someone 12 times to get it, you wouldn't call it better than Highlander

All he has. Yeah seems fair with CC and Bonus tankyness that is not interrupted by CC. Yeah fair point there. But honestly if i have to trade Meditate Healing for better escape mechanic I would on 100%. If you don't take damage what will you heal? Because you know. Yi is a tank after All. I build Frozen Malet, Warmog, Randuin, Spirit Visage every single game on Yi

We were talking mobility. As far as mobility? That one leap is all he has got.

Yep obviously how many times you played Yi on a lane cause... it kinda doesn't work that way when you get ganked but seems you know better

Not a whole lot, but a decent enough amount. Even disregarding champion choice, if you're far enough up that if the jungler comes you can't escape, you're too far up.

Well not every champion but Sona can still Ult to CC her opponents then E away

And Yi can Dodge their CC and run away, but with a stronger movespeed buff

25% ms on champion level 6 ULTIMATE ability... Wow yeah... Thats pretty damn massive.

Compared to not having any yes it is at rank 1. Plus that isn't all it does.

So Yi has to rely on items but Riven, Jax, Lee sin can cc their opponents just just away and without any items or whatsoever

If you're stronger than Jax and Lee, you can jsut chase them down after their mobility because they are like sprinters and Yi is a marathon runner. Riven it depends if you dodge it. Yi does not have to rely on items. I said that if you have those items, it makes your ultiamte even better.

Well yeah braum has no bonus movement speed but still can make teamplay by hopping to ally and he is tank btw

Okay? Yi aids his team by being cleanup with resets or chasing down an out of position carry.

Kata got bonus movement speed on her W btw I didn't know this, so that is may bad. You're right on this one.

Honestly, it feels like you just don't like Yi. If you think he is so massively outclassed, play those other champions. Riot does not want wardhops in the game, and is very unlikely to give Yi one especially since his Alpha Strike has to be targeted on an enemy, unlike the two remaining ward hops in the game.

SlashStrikerMar 15, 20171 votes

yeah ok You know what fk this shit.

Like usual i will wait for the community to start crying about jax and lee sin. Then we will see what song you will sing

GankedByWindowsMar 15, 20171 votes

People already cry about lee. You don't have to wait for that one. People never stop.

For Jax you'll have to wait quite a while. Unless he gets a buff, a massive indirect buff through items, or every top laner good into him gets nerfed, he won't be meta for a long time. When/if he does though, it won't be because of ward hopping.

PhDs NutsMar 14, 20171 votes

So say Yi can ward hop with alpha strike.

Then what? You gonna Meditate them to death? Or just chase them down anyway after using your ult to close the gap, since you're landing on a ward and not a champion? In which case, why did you even target the ward, and not the champion?

Would Yi's ult get nerfed, since Jax and Lee Sin don't have speed boosts?

SlashStrikerMar 14, 20171 votes

I wanna know why Jax and Lee Sin got better Safety than Yi