Lethality vs Mag Pen

YerroFever·Mar 17, 2017·3 votes·1,069 views

Anyone else think that Lethality is far superior to Mag Pen in the current scheme of things?

7 Comments

Chibi BronzlifeMar 17, 20172 votes

nope, since mages have a higher potential damage output and generally speaking the mage is overlooked when itemizing in a game as compared to the ADC whom no one wants to live so they can't push towers.

YerroFeverMar 17, 20172 votes

I'm not quite sure how it's harder to get MR than armor when ADC's get several options while mages have one.

MR items for AD's to combat both burst and continuous dps item 3139 item 3156 item 3814 and potentially item 3091 but not often

Armor items for AP's to combat both burst and continuous dps item 3157 and potentially ninja tabi's (I don't see the icon in the list)

Tanks don't have to worry all that much about burst since they have the health to survive it.

Tanks need more health and Armor items because they have to contend with attack speed, on hit, life steal, true damage, etc...

I'm just not seeing the numbers here and it feels like anecdotal evidence to say lethality isn't a problem.

Magic Pen: 15 - sorc boots 15 - liandry's 35% pen - Void 10% bonus magic damage - Abyssal (shared)

Order: % MR reduction -> Flat MR reduction

Armor Pen up to 30% armor reduction - Black cleaver (shared) 15 - Edge 15 - Duskblade 15 - Ghostblade up to 15% bonus physical damage against tankier targets - Dominik specifically 45% bonus armor pen - Last Whisper items

Order: Flat armor reduction -> % Armor reduction -> Armor Pen % -> Lethality

Lethality is Flat Armor Pen = (60% of lethality) + (40% of Lethality) x (Target level/18)

Flat armor pen is last like how flat MR pen is last in the formulas.

Early game lethality isn't as good but late game, lethality outstrips spell pen. Plus you have the on hit effect, you have the spell shield, and the run speed.

So far it looks like lethality is more favored in itemization due to the greater survivability of the AD MR items vs the AP Armor item.

Can anyone actually give non-anecdotal evidence to prove that spell pen is currently superior to lethality given the totality of circumstances?

EDIT:

It seems as though the % total MR pen was left in place because there's so much more MR itemization that has to be contended with while Armor AP items are sorely lacking.

Edge of DaybreakMar 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I'm not quite sure how it's harder to get MR than armor when ADC's get several options while mages have one.

For tanks which is what most of the complaints have been referencing on boards you have these armor options item 3047 item 3742 item 3025 item 3143 item 3110 item 3068 item 3075

vs these MR options item 3102 item 3065

I am leaving off the items that give both resist, however when it comes to pure armor vs pure mr there are more normal options for armor.

Squishies building mr doesn't mean much when they have no health to back it up. Once you grab void staff that mr doesn't matter nearly as much. Also anyone building that much magic resist is going to be killed rather quickly by AD champions which is fine.

Armor items for AP's to combat both burst and continuous dps

As others have said on this forum AP champions arent being handed multiple defense options due to the nature of their kits. They have range and CC for their defense.

So far it looks like lethality is more favored in itemization due to the greater survivability of the AD MR items vs the AP Armor item.

That is because Most AP champions can kill you while also CC'ing you, killing you from outside of your range or in some cases both. AD get those resist due to the range and CC difference so while the items are heavily favored toward AD there is a reason for it.

It isn't even a case of whether one is superior or not. They have different functions. For example last whisper is pointless against squishies but void staff is good against anyone.

YerroFeverMar 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

For tanks which is what most of the complaints have been referencing on boards you have these armor options

vs these MR options

I am leaving off the items that give both resist, however when it comes to pure armor vs pure mr there are more normal options for armor.

But the nature of AP champs is that only a few are machine guns while everyone else tends to have longer cooldowns so the tanks don't actually need more items.

Squishies building mr doesn't mean much when they have no health to back it up. Once you grab void staff that mr doesn't matter nearly as much. Also anyone building that much magic resist is going to be killed rather quickly by AD champions which is fine.

As others have said on this forum AP champions arent being handed multiple defense options due to the nature of their kits. They have range and CC for their defense.

That is because Most AP champions can kill you while also CC'ing you, killing you from outside of your range or in some cases both. AD get those resist due to the range and CC difference so while the items are heavily favored toward AD there is a reason for it.

There's an inherent discontinuity with champion design and mechanics. AD's are given significantly more mobility and more escapes than AP champs and there are only a small number of point and click CC's in the game, which means, skilled AD's will always be able to dodge critical CC with their kit.

It isn't even a case of whether one is superior or not. They have different functions. For example last whisper is pointless against squishies but void staff is good against anyone.

The reason why I'm asking for a complete review of the system is that most people only look at items and not consider champ design.

EDIT:

The way the game currently plays, it basically is that AP is to soften people up rather than actually being able to kill while AD's who can kill 1v1 and and still take down the whole team with a proper front line. I guess my gripe is that they're trying to fix the problem by creating different problems.

People complained mages could nuke you from a far, so all of the champions started to get more mobility to dodge. Then they complained the bruisers were useless and so they made tanky dps that could chase down the ADC's, then the bruisers were OP so they nerfed them and made assasins more potent... and then they said they would nerf lethality if too many ranged champs used it, which everyone does... yet there is no nerf to it.

Is it part of their cycle of rock paper scissors? Maybe but It never really feels like the game gets balanced, only power gets shifted so because it's an easier fix to say "well you had the power last season so this season someone else will have it"

Edge of DaybreakMar 17, 20171 votes

Well it's harder to get mr than armor so no not really Also mages get far more pen with less items than AD's do considering the difference of armor vs mr.

GlîtchyMar 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Well it's harder to get mr than armor so no not really Also mages get far more pen with less items than AD's do considering the difference of armor vs mr.

Actually Lethality behaves a bit differently than armor pen, I can't remember EXACTLY how it is, but I've been told many times that it is different.

Edge of DaybreakMar 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Actually Lethality behaves a bit differently than armor pen, I can't remember EXACTLY how it is, but I've been told many times that it is different.

Yeah you get 60% of the value + around .22% per target level. so say you start the game with 20 lethality you actually have around 12. So Lethality scales and base armor scales so say you get to 18. You get 100% of your lethality so that number you see is your actual armor pen. However unless you have all of the lethality runes and masteries + every lethality item and let's say cleaver for good measure you won't get the sweet true damage to squishies people want out of it.