why is kalista able to have a infinite stacking execute on jungle camps/objectives

F03·Apr 28, 2015·64 votes·4,360 views

yet every other champ in this game has a cap

77 Comments

Variks the LoyalApr 28, 201524 votes

No idea. It's just one of the things in Kalista's overloaded kit.

It should be capped, so it can't do as much damage to a monster as Smite can. Also, refunding mana cost and cooldown on kill, while Twitch's Contaminate doesn't, is kinda hypocritical.

Kalista is too much. They intended for her to be weaker when she's alone, not near her support/oathsworn. But they failed as Kalista proceeds to kite three people at once, while killing them all with Runaan's+Rend.

disregardableApr 28, 20154 votes

I never understood the Twitch comparison. Twitch gets a giant boost of attack speed on his Q and also a high range, throwable set of stacks. Why should he get a mana refund? It's MUCH easier for him to hit max stacks, it'd just make his laning a nightmare to play against.

Variks the LoyalApr 28, 201515 votes

Not quite.

Kalista has a throwable stack as well, and hers can stack much, much higher than Twitch's. Kalista is also extremely mobile. You can move out of Twitch's basic attack range, but Kalista will always hop after you. Moreover, the AS steroid is tied to Twitch's only escape mechanism, and if he uses it, he's going in, all or nothing. Kalista can always hop either away, or towards you.

Twitch would not be a nightmare to lane against, because he's extremely squishy and has medium range with no possible escapes outside of Flash or a support. He trades this for the ability to assassinate, which he needs to scale up to item spikes to achieve. Kalista gets not only fighting power from the Rend resets, but last hitting power too, since she can just Rend every minion dead with no loss.

disregardableApr 28, 20151 votes

Throwable? No. Arrangeable once or twice a match? Yeah. Like I said, she traded the mobility for the assassination/damage. If Twitch being able to throw his stacks at you every 10 seconds and take out 1/6th of your health for free doesn't sound like a nightmare to you, you must not main AD Carry. You'd make him into a high-range, hyper-scaling lane bully.

Variks the LoyalApr 28, 20159 votes

How is the Q not a throwable stack?

She has mobility AND damage. And Twitch doesn't have the mana to toss out Venom Cask AND Contaminate every ten seconds, he'd run out of Mana after two times.

Twitch is weak in the laning phase. And that's okay. Everyone needs a weakness. But Kalista has no real weaknesses. Sure, if you hard CC her, you'll kill her. But that's how every ADC works. But you can never catch Kalista with soft cc. Moreover, she has unmatched objective control, good vision control, and has the ability to both save her support when they're caught out, or engage a teamfight with her ult. She's a perfect ADC.

disregardableApr 28, 20156 votes

She's a perfect ADC.

You know, except for the part where she can barely attack things to do any damage. I mean, before she's finished her second item, she literally can't 1v1 any ADC in the game including Twitch.

Also except for that part where "unmatched objective control" only actually applies to Baron and Dragon, and only when she got there to attack it first. Oh, and also except for that part where her "Good vision control" can be completely averted and destroyed in 2 auto-attacks.

But yeah, she can save her support. She gave up any boost to her assassination/DPS to get that, but it's nice. And I mean she can be a little better if she gets a good support. We all know how useful of a trait that is in solo-queue.

How is the Q not a throwable stack?

It's simple. You want to hit someone with free stacks on Twitch? Press W->free AOE stacks. Done.

You want to hit someone with free stacks on Kalista? Okay, pick a minion that won't instantly die, auto-attack it, position yourself so your Q will hit a minion that won't die behind it, AIM your Q, land it, and repeat until a minion has a few stacks (or, the minion wave runs out, or you can't position properly, or the minion dies accidentally). Somehow got a few stacks on a minion? Great! Now, position yourself behind that minion and so that it'll hit your enemies and not another minion fast enough for the minion to not die while also not getting attacked by the enemy laners. Done that? Congratulations, you're a miracle worker, and you deserve to AIM Q and transfer the stacks. Also you can't use your only source of waveclear while doing that, so expect to give up some CS.

Variks the LoyalApr 28, 20155 votes

She's not made to 1v1. She needs her Oathsworn. Unless it's a melee champion. She can 1v4 melee champions with one item.

Also, hah, Twitch can't 1v1 anybody. He can assassinate, but not 1v1.

Also, I would just throw the Q through, or around the minions, You're making it too difficult. Meanwhile, Venom Cask is no easier to hit, nor does it do any damage by itself (Deadly Venom damage, by itself, is unnoticeable).

58738074DEL1Apr 28, 20153 votes

[deleted]

F03Apr 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

TL DR

leavebuster gonna catch up with u someday

with who?

Lucent RengarApr 29, 20151 votes

AFK farmer, you lost this argument. sit down, now you just trolling.

disregardableApr 29, 20151 votes

Downvotes don't always mean that someone is trolling, brah. There's several reasons Riot wants to get rid of them, and I really can't wait until they do. Maybe I won't have to feel like I'm forced out of every conversation for once.

F03Apr 30, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qJ0X938T,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000020000,timestamp=2015-04-29T19:39:47.526+0000)

Downvotes don't always mean that someone is trolling, brah. There's several reasons Riot wants to get rid of them, and I really can't wait until they do. Maybe I won't have to feel like I'm forced out of every conversation for once.

Instead of being down voted people will just end up telling you that you are wrong

9/10 you're gonna end up flamed as well

disregardableApr 30, 20151 votes

so, overall, an improvement!

F03May 1, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qJ0X938T,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000002000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-30T19:18:28.086+0000)

so, overall, an improvement!

so you'd rather be told you are wrong, by everyone and eventually ignored by everyone. instead of being downvoted?

yea ok

Knight SoIaire Apr 28, 20151 votes

kalista is an utility carryy

twitch is an assasin hypercarry

you compare kits but you dont compare the fact that they difere too hard for comparisons

TmooseApr 29, 20151 votes

I think it still should be able to do damage similar to smite, but definitely should be capped. I like that she has that effect on games like Chogath and Nunu

CarryApr 28, 20156 votes

Well for starters, it's not an execute.

That being said, champions that have executes (% missing hp damage) or %current hp damage or %max hp damage have caps against monsters because certain monsters have high HP in order to prevent them from being taken too quickly; %hp is a loophole in this design and caps close the loophole. Kalista's rend doesn't actually scale with enemy hp, so the logic behind capping other executes (and all % damage) doesn't apply to Kalista's rend.

Whether or not the rend interaction with jungle camps is making objectives too easy to secure is another can of worms though...

Krys StarApr 29, 20154 votes

Because she's a creation of CertainlyT, and we can't have any of his champions own a defining weakness! Just kidding, but... not really.

gubigubiApr 28, 20153 votes

Because you touch yourself at night http://i.ytimg.com/vi/W23LKD9Z1hw/hqdefault.jpg

Mandang0Apr 29, 20153 votes

Because CertainlyT

TreyenApr 29, 20153 votes

Have faith. Rito has proven one thing many times over. They will eventually nerf anything that's op. Then when it's balanced...they will nerf it again and again and again until you never see them picked outside low mmr normals and troll picks. I just wonder...after Kalista goes down that path, will it be, "Oh man ao shin really got Kalista'd this time!" instead of Olaf'd or Poppy'd? Time will tell (yeah it will be a thing, I'm actually a prophet.) Olaf

F03Apr 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Have faith. Rito has proven one thing many times over. They will eventually nerf anything that's op. Then when it's balanced...they will nerf it again and again and again until you never see them picked outside low mmr normals and troll picks. I just wonder...after Kalista goes down that path, will it be, "Oh man ao shin really got Kalista'd this time!" instead of Olaf'd or Poppy'd? Time will tell (yeah it will be a thing, I'm actually a prophet.)

where is voyboy when you need him

F03Apr 28, 20151 votes

can i receive a response?

GundayMondayApr 28, 20155 votes

She's broken.

djjomonApr 28, 20151 votes

It caps at 256, or something like that. But that doesn't answer your question.

It's her thing. Except so is her mobility. Riot should pick a direction that they want to take her. Either uncatchable kiting monster, or essentially infinitely stacking Rend-execute (though not a true execute) carry. She's currently too good at both.

F03Apr 28, 20153 votes

{quoted}

It caps at 256, or something like that. But that doesn't answer your question.

It's her thing. Except so is her mobility. Riot should pick a direction that they want to take her. Either uncatchable kiting monster, or essentially infinitely stacking Rend-execute (though not a true execute) carry. She's currently too good at both.

mobility was lucian's thing, then they nerfed that to oblivion.

Those arrows that cap at 256, thats not damage. thats a cap for how many arrows she can put into someone.

PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 (+ 60% AD) DAMAGE PER ADDITIONAL SPEAR: 10 / 14 / 19 / 25 / 32 (+ 20 / 22.5 / 25 / 27.5 / 30% AD) SLOW: 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 / 45%

not including any ad if she puts at least 50 arrows into someone at max rank thats 1600 damage it doesn't matter if its a monster or a champion that damage will always be the same.

meanwhile any other champion which has the ability to do an absurd amount of damage to a monster has a max damage of 300.

Are you trying to tell me its ok for kalista's E to do that amount of damage to both champions and monsters?

HOE BlooApr 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

mobility was lucian's thing, then they nerfed that to oblivion.

Those arrows that cap at 256, thats not damage. thats a cap for how many arrows she can put into someone.

PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 (+ 60% AD) DAMAGE PER ADDITIONAL SPEAR: 10 / 14 / 19 / 25 / 32 (+ 20 / 22.5 / 25 / 27.5 / 30% AD) SLOW: 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 / 45%

not including any ad if she puts at least 50 arrows into someone at max rank thats 1600 damage it doesn't matter if its a monster or a champion that damage will always be the same.

meanwhile any other champion which has the ability to do an absurd amount of damage to a monster has a max damage of 300.

Are you trying to tell me its ok for kalista's E to do that amount of damage to both champions and monsters?

Why havent you added in the actual AD as well? The damage from the aa?

53.46+(3.25x18) = 111.96 so around 112AD 112x50 = 5600

ok now her attack speed.

0.658+(3.3x18)=1.252 thats around 5 attacks every 4 secs. to get to your 50. that's 20 secs.

nothing lives that long. her rend is an execute. which is why it has so much damage. you either kill them with your aa, or you kill them with rend.finding that sweet spot where you've put in enough spears to rend them to death is her skill requirement. also, rito might want to make jungle kalista a thing.

HOE BlooApr 28, 20151 votes

also, her spears stay in there only for 4 secs apparently

DeliothApr 29, 20151 votes

Stacks last for 4 seconds- putting another stack on resets the timer though- so if I attack 3 times in 3 seconds, they have 3 stacks. If I wait 3 seconds, they still have 3 stacks. If I attack again, the stacks will continue stacking. As long as you hit them once every four seconds, they'll keep stacking ad infinium.

NarasimhaApr 29, 20151 votes

Forget 50, if she has time to put in even 20-30 spears in something, she deserves what comes next.

disregardableApr 28, 20151 votes

Chogath

Also, because it's literally the only way she can damage anything.

F03Apr 28, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qJ0X938T,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-04-28T19:49:58.970+0000)

Also, because it's literally the only way she can damage anything.

chogath has a a small execute on his ult against champions while most of his damage in his ult is against monsters

but ok fine what if it is her only way of damaging things. but isn't twitch the same way?

why is his E capped against monsters, champions, AND how many stacks he can put on a champion and monster?

disregardableApr 28, 20152 votes

Because his kit is better, blatantly put. See my other post. He has a better attack animation, better attack speed, an actual attack speed boost, one of the highest range of ADC ultimate in the game THAT IS AOE, plus high range throwable set of stacks. He has much less general utility for WAY MORE damage potential. Plus he can fucking sneak up on you.

F03Apr 28, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qJ0X938T,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2015-04-28T19:56:40.061+0000)

Because his kit is better, blatantly put. See my other post. He has a better attack animation, better attack speed, an actual attack speed boost, one of the highest range of ADC ultimate in the game AND IS AOE, plus high range throwable set of stacks. He has much less general utility for WAY MORE damage potential. Plus he can fucking sneak up on you.

twitch only gains a speed boost when he uses his Q vs kalista being able to hop around the map just by auto attacking or using her Q (if she uses her passive hop its free and costs nothing it also scales with attack speed )

twitch may have a high attack speed boost and a high range ultimate but it isn't an aoe attack, it only does damage to things in one line, if it was aoe it would be able to damage in all directions.

Twitch can not instantly slow people with a press of a button he needs to land his W

Kalista can instantly slow someone just by auto attacking and pressing a button.

twitch's invisibility can be thwarted with upgraded sweeper or pink ward, plus you can stop him from going invisible by damaging him.

but once again lets not forget twitch's E is capped at 5 stacks

disregardableApr 28, 20151 votes

Kalista can only hop away when something to attack is in range, Twitch can just Q and leave. AOE means Area of Effect- the area is allowed to be in a line shape. See: Lucian's Q. If Kalista only uses her E to slow, she probably won't have enough damage to finish, and its CD probably won't be up again in time. Using Twitch's slow actually gives him more damage/stacks. Twitch's E is capped because it does passive true damage as well as the % damage per stack on activation. The true damage means Twitch doesn't need to use his stacks to harass the enemy, unlike Kalista.

Variks the LoyalApr 28, 20152 votes

Twitch's passive doesn't actually do a whole bunch of damage, and he has no way of reliably keeping it up on his enemy during the laning phase for the damage to stack up. If you get close enough to auto attack, you get outtraded easily. If you use Venom Cask to keep it up, you run out of mana extremely quickly.

The only time the passive damage is noticeable is when they have extremely low health, and it gets the killing blow as they run away.

I'm not saying Twitch's poison needs a buff, but Kalista is so much better than Twitch at all stages of the game, except when Twitch assassinates someone.

F03Apr 28, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qJ0X938T,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-28T20:20:22.907+0000)

Kalista can only hop away when something to attack is in range, Twitch can just Q and leave.

unless you damage twitch to prevent his stealth from going up

AOE means Area of Effect- the area is allowed to be in a line shape. See: Lucian's Q.

veigar's Q is aoe because it passes through minions as well?

If Kalista only uses her E to slow, she probably won't have enough damage to finish, and its CD probably won't be up again in time. Using Twitch's slow actually gives him more damage/stacks. Twitch's E is capped because it does passive true damage as well as the % damage per stack on activation. The true damage means Twitch doesn't need to use his stacks to harass the enemy, unlike Kalista.

twitch's W can be evaded, kalista's E can not

if twitch doesn't use his stacks to harass then he will only do a minimal amount of damage

disregardableApr 28, 20152 votes

unless you damage twitch to prevent his stealth from going up

By being in range, you mean?

twitch's W can be evaded, kalista's E can not

What makes you say that? Kalista's stacks only lasts 4 seconds, and Rend's range is 1000, 200 less than Twitch's 1200 range. It's easier to walk out of Kalista's stacks.

Also, Veigar's Q is a linear skillshot.

qetzelApr 28, 20151 votes

Because no other champion has any ability that stacks infinitely on anything? It is unique.

F03Apr 28, 201514 votes

{quoted}

Because no other champion has any ability that stacks infinitely on anything? It is unique.

Nasus Veigar Bard Sion

simply being unique is no excuse to be broken

JunkοApr 28, 20153 votes

To be fair none of the champs you listed have a cap on their infinite stacking ability. Nasus could technically dish out the damage Kalista Rend does at 30 spears every few autos if your top lane sucks.

F03Apr 28, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hurny Quilva,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qJ0X938T,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-04-28T22:51:50.727+0000)

To be fair none of the champs you listed have a cap on their infinite stacking ability. Nasus could technically dish out the damage Kalista Rend does at 30 spears every few autos if your top lane sucks.

thats because he said kalista's ability to infinitely stack is unique and shouldn't be nerfed

i showed champions who scale infinitely

qetzelApr 29, 20152 votes

You know that those are different. Twitch doesn't have an infinitely stacking thingy. Darius doesn't. If something stacks on champions it stacks on monsters. These are similar abilities to Kalista's rend.

Also, technically Nasus and Veigar could deal an effectively infinite amount of damage to monsters as could Sion (I think the shield damage scales with max health).

DeliothApr 29, 20151 votes

The shield's strength (I.E. shield granted) scales with Sion's max hp, but damage dealt doesn't- it deals base+AP+%enemy max hp.

48983507DEL1Apr 29, 20152 votes

{quoted}

simply being unique is no excuse to be broken

Thresh Everyone forgets his passive apparently

F03Apr 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Everyone forgets his passive apparently

People forget his lantern, his passive...etc

FattyPainBringerApr 29, 20151 votes

simply put it's her only source of burst. in fights your dead within seconds so there is no way to get a crazy amout of stacks on a champ and that's what they care about. your looking at it's max possiblity your not taking into the account on how long it takes for her to get a decent number of stacks on anything before she gets any kind of attack speed.

Even after she gets attack speed her ablity to kite is tied to peoples stupidity in chasing her. It's like chasing singed. the smart players make him come to them the dumb ones chase him and die then come crying to the forums

F03Apr 29, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nuke Cloud,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qJ0X938T,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2015-04-29T18:00:15.669+0000)

simply put it's her only source of burst. in fights your dead within seconds so there is no way to get a crazy amout of stacks on a champ and that's what they care about. your looking at it's max possiblity your not taking into the account on how long it takes for her to get a decent number of stacks on anything before she gets any kind of attack speed.

Even after she gets attack speed her ablity to kite is tied to peoples stupidity in chasing her. It's like chasing singed. the smart players make him come to them the dumb ones chase him and die then come crying to the forums

burst against champions, fine.

burst against every single jungle camp in the game? not ok

FattyPainBringerMay 1, 20151 votes

oh noes not burst against every jungle camp. you clearly dont play jungle much. WW Q's every camp, emo mummy crys and rampages every camp, rengar stabs and heals every camp, evelynn ravages hate spikes every camp, shyvanna twin strikes burnout every camp.

your burst complaint is invalded