"We want Assassins to have greater outplay potential but also be able to be outplayed." - Riot

IAmWoralo··82 votes·3,684 views

They said they wanted players to be able to respond before a wild Katarina appears and instantly kills people. Well it's great that assasins are not like that anymore right?

Meanwhile I just went from 100 - 0 from a single Hecarim charge, without even being able to flash, dash or whatever. And this is just one simple example, the game is full of this. I constantly feel like there is no time to respond to threats anymore.

84 Comments

Prisma Loli48 votes

Riot: Let's put counterplay mechanics to AP assassins, Le Blanc, Evelynn, Katarina and Ekko should have delayed burst and with opportunity to counterplay.

Everyone claps.

Also Riot: Let's give AD assassins an item and masteries to One shot with a single auto attack, with 0 counterplay.

Riot why all AP assassins have awfully obvious and delayed burst but AD assassins like Kayn, Kha'zix, Talon or Zed can kill you without warning or foreshadowing, [sg-janna]

Squidward Dab27 votes

Cuz they favour ad assasins way more than ap. It’s just certain delusional ad assassins mains that think their burst is ‘delayed’ compared to AP. Literally kha just needs to leap and q to kill you.

PhantomPrankster13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Squidward Dab,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qIlJ38Rf,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-11-23T04:29:30.782+0000)

Cuz they favour ad assasins way more than ap. It’s just certain delusional ad assassins mains that think their burst is ‘delayed’ compared to AP. Literally kha just needs to leap and q to kill you.

first they nerfed all the "broken" assassins second they started "reworking" assassins then they "re classed" assassins and finally we have riot creating a rift between ap and ad assassins to turn assassin mains against each other

Squidward Dab3 votes

Gun blade and duskblade might be similar but if we’re being honest, gunblade doesn’t hold a candle to duskblade’s level of broken. Ad assassins just don’t realize their delay is non existent compared to us poor ap assassins unless we’re fed. Meanwhile all they need is a serrated dirk

Pierce The Veal2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Squidward Dab,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qIlJ38Rf,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-23T14:07:06.554+0000)

Gun blade and duskblade might be similar but if we’re being honest, gunblade doesn’t hold a candle to duskblade’s level of broken. Ad assassins just don’t realize their delay is non existent compared to us poor ap assassins unless we’re fed. Meanwhile all they need is a serrated dirk

To be fair I play both and AD assassins fall off really really hard and AP assassins outscale. However, with games ending earlier and earlier AD assassins indeed do feel and are, in practice, stronger than AP assassins.

Red Wreckage2 votes

this thread is full of delusional fks lmfao.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

Forgot Fizz. Fizz needs to wait 2 seconds for his W to charge up. Because...reasons.

Its All Skillzz4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qIlJ38Rf,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2017-11-23T06:40:27.201+0000)

Forgot Fizz. Fizz needs to wait 2 seconds for his W to charge up. Because...reasons.

no lol i seen fizz just press R and kill a carry, infact a fizz landed his R on my adc late game i was playing ap ez and slightly ahead of fizz and dominating the game stupid ass lucian dashed ontop of me with it an i got hit by the fish an died from 100-0 due to the bleed tick.

Voluug131 votes

No. Fizz can choke.

He deserves to have even more delay.

In Borke Veritas2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qIlJ38Rf,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2017-11-23T06:40:27.201+0000)

Forgot Fizz. Fizz needs to wait 2 seconds for his W to charge up. Because...reasons.

Or he can always toss his R in your general direction, have the balancing team latch it onto you and then miserably watch as your screen turns grey because you can't counter his ult once it's on you and can't dodge his W-powered Q because it's a targeted ability. Then watch as the rest of your team pulls their hair out because they cannot counter his all-in for the simple reason of him pressing E after you die. All this with lvl 6 and half an item. (I'm not making this shit up, I've been on the receiving end of this, best example being the game where I faced a Fizz as Viktor, solokilled him 3 times before level 6, he hit level 6 when I was level 7, tossed his ult, it jumped onto me - note that I just came from the base with 100% HP - and suddenly my screen was grey from a 0/3 Fizz with nothing but a Doran's ring and a Sheen.) Man good thing I haven't seen a Fizz in my games ever since 10 bans came out.

yay nibbers2 votes

What? Three of those champs can certainly pop you like a zit out of nowhere but Kayn literally foreshadows his coming with a shadow on the wall showing that he's coming.

Otherwise I totally agree with what you're saying.

Red Wreckage1 votes

Talon's combo has lot more delay added to it, wtf u playing against?

LordGeovanni1 votes

Actually it doesnt but ap assasins delay isnt much longer either

Dreadlocks21 votes

I don't get the idea of "delayed burst" when champions like JarvanIV Graves Talon Diana can still insta burst and some arn't even labeled assassins.. Rip Leblanc Rengar in thou delays to burst. Unless ofc you have duskblade on rengar and get the mark.. then u don't need spells rite? xD

OverpoweredSoap21 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rengar Revert,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qIlJ38Rf,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-11-23T04:37:11.136+0000)

I don't get the idea of "delayed burst" when champions like JarvanIV Graves Talon Diana can still insta burst and some arn't even labeled assassins.. Rip Leblanc Rengar in thou delays to burst. Unless ofc you have duskblade on rengar and get the mark.. then u don't need spells rite? xD

I'm surprised more people don't complain about Diana.

That bitch is terrifying.

Pale Pirate2 votes

I think people don't build right against diana. She has these big base damages so she builds resistances and penetration and she still kills people, when buying a good magic resist item should reduce that burst a lot.

Brain Errör 4043 votes

I find this to be false. I build 2-3 MR items on adcs when vs diana now and still get one shotted... I guess tht applied to past seasons.

Yura May Zing1 votes

you need some health in there too. a maw + frozen mallet should tide you over. unless shes hella fed.

Brain Errör 4041 votes

I typically build a spirit visage + maw. On certain adcs, mallet would just be counter intuitive. Some games I swear to god I opt in to building bruiser adc just to try and survive and still get melted without being able to do any damage (especially when I know my team just sucks at peeling).

Wimbledofy4 votes

Well yeah they aren't labeled assassins because they aren't. Veigar syndra and many other champs also burst. Killing people instantly isn't what defines an assassin. It's killing a high priority target through stealthy means and possibly getting out that makes a champ an assassin. So graves definitely wouldn't be considered an assassin.

Ahris15 votes

Adcs also shouldnt be able to right click from range and kill people as well.

Rivuo21 votes

{quoted}

Adcs also shouldnt be able to right click from range and kill people as well.

Then syndra shouldn't be able to press r from range and kill people as well.

You really need to stop posting on the boards

Ahris14 votes

{quoted}

Then syndra shouldn't be able to press r from range and kill people as well.

You really need to stop posting on the boards

She couldnt.

Wimbledofy3 votes

so she has to press r from melee?

Slythrin Umbreon2 votes

No, she has to press R from Wombo.

LordGeovanni1 votes

that would matter if you had to pay for the combo

wildfox9915 votes

Then syndra shouldn't be able to press r from range and kill people as well.

bad example, an ADC can basically do the same damage but with no CD and no conditional factors (syndra's balls)

sure every class need its counterplay, enchanters shuoldn't make someone unkillable smashing a key,ADCs shouldn't be point and click killing machines, assassins and bruisers shouldn't OS in 0.x sec, tank shouldn't be unkillable while still dealing tons of damage

these are the problems depending from the meta, if a class become strong you start to notice how brainless it is while the others seems to be ok just because there is something more strong

You really need to stop posting on the boards

why? is giving your opinion bannable?

LordGeovanni1 votes

II agree with both of your statements with none of the sarcasm

The Space Cowboy1 votes

Could ADCs use a small dps buff late game? Yes. Are they supposed to be the most consistent damage source on the team? Yes! Are they the squishiest on your team? YESSSS! You must work together with your team to delete the enemy damage threats instead of targeting Tahm again.

Hahahahyena12 votes

is the adc killing everyone before they can even be touched, absolutely

VexingRaven12 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Space Cowboy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qIlJ38Rf,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-11-23T04:19:01.160+0000)

Could ADCs use a small dps buff late game?

N-no? Nobody has ever said this who deserves to be taken seriously.

Thilmer8 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Space Cowboy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qIlJ38Rf,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-11-23T04:19:01.160+0000)

Could ADCs use a small dps buff late game? Yes. Are they supposed to be the most consistent damage source on the team? Yes! Are they the squishiest on your team? YESSSS! You must work together with your team to delete the enemy damage threats instead of targeting Tahm again.

ADCs should't kill anyone in three autos.

Period.

Teridax687 votes

I think the idea of implementing delays to burst on assassins was a good one, even if the specifics of the implementation weren't always great (LeBlanc in particular has suffered a great deal for her clunky new innate). What isn't so great is that damage in League has an absolutely huge amount of variance, to the point where the same champion, when ahead, can deal a literal multiple of the damage they'd deal if they were behind. This means that many DPS champions easily become bursty when they get a lead, but it also explains why AD champions are more likely to have less counterplay to their burst than AP champions, irrespective of items like Duskblade: building AP means your damage is almost completely defined by your kit and its limitations, whereas AD can always at the very least be expressed through autoattacks. Therefore, while an AP burst champion may be able to output too much damage if they get too far ahead, if their burst is meant to be delayed, it will always be delayed no matter what. An AD champion, however, can just autoattack whenever, so even if their kits also have delays built into their damage output (like Zed's ult, for example), those delays can be bypassed.

In an ideal, balanced world, the lessened impact of ability gating on AD champions would be more or less fine (it should be okay to have a playstyle that involves weaving continuous attacks in-between bursts of damage), but the current problem is that damage is incredibly unstable, as it often heavily relies on item purchases, and therefore induces a very large degree of snowballing: if a champion gets ahead, or in certain cases just reaches their late-game build (or something close to it), the innate counterplay to their DPS-based damage vanishes as they begin outputting burst per second. If they happen to fall behind, they often cannot function properly at all, because the only way they can get a lead is if they get kills, which require a minimum damage output, which requires items, which require gold, which is heavily conditional upon having a lead in the game. We are in a game state where some champions effectively become incapable of applying some of their core contributions in any meaningful amount, simply because they fell behind. This is made worse when there are heavy amounts of low-cost shielding or healing (e.g. life steal), which further negate what little damage gets outputted.

This issue of vast differences in fighting power is why I'm not a big fan of stats on items. Passives and actives have merit, as they add gameplay, but stats do not, and at this point only serve to make the game more snowbally. There was once a time when stats were promised to offer complete variety in playstyle, so that champions could realistically go for AD, AP or health builds and succeed, but at this point champions are essentially forced to go for the same core stats in every game, and are balanced around those, to the point where the only variation comes from item-specific bonuses, rather than their raw stats. I think it would help League significantly if there were much stronger upper and lower bounds on a champion's statistical power: even if not everyone may agree to removing stats completely from itemization, I think most of us at this point can agree that it might be better to shift at least some focus away from pure statistical power in fights, by lessening the stat differences between players that are behind or ahead.

IAmWoralo3 votes

I agree, the differences between levels seem to be huge. I think a big part of these unexpected amounts of damage come from level gaps which we used to have in the past when someone was wildely fed on farm as well as kills, but right now an enemy mid-laner can be 3 levels ahead with just 2 kills and a 15 to 20 farm lead, that's just bonkers. Ofcourse a 3 level gap should mean vast amounts of damage to those who are behind, but they should do something to counter these level gaps, because levels are all over the place right now. It used to be Top +1 Mid 0 Sup & ADC - 1, now it's just well whatever..

Weedbro6 votes

ADC's and assassins are still ridiculously overtuned but they nerf Rammus and Aery first. :| sigh. such bad priorities.

HibHib1 votes

Probably because both of those were way overperforming, especially aery.

Weedbro9 votes

{quoted}

Probably because both of those were way overperforming, especially aery.

yeah everyone was crying about how OP Rammus was, oh wait lol nobody was doing that

Hahahahyena8 votes

i for one was very excited to see rammus finally getting some love by players and playing him top a while ago then they nerfed him and it went downhill from there

HibHib4 votes

No one was crying about it, he just had a ridiculously high win-rate across most elo's. Just because the community isn't complaining about it doesn't make it not too strong.

Its All Skillzz5 votes

Behold my assassins are weak montages where super fed assassins use all their skills to instantly kill someone. and fail at it cause they are weak https://youtu.be/jOFENQS-35c Look how fed this rengar is man he was raping top lane so hard super far ahead https://youtu.be/5wzpRhn8TLs My god that diana score so unstopable she was winning her lane super hard.

Catastrop4 votes

What's even more hilarious about Hecarim is that his charge is literally no counterplay. You could flash/use whatever mobility you have to get out of the way, but that will only save you from the knock back and not the damage. Short of going of unvulnerable or straight up being god, you're either dying or getting chunked for at least 50% of your health as a squishy.

Meanwhile as Leblanc I'm expected by our lord and savior RicklessAbandon to pretend like I'm being deceptive and walk around like a headless chicken as I wait for my SoM proc to charge.

Yura May Zing3 votes

except it does have counterplay... its considered an auto attack so...

  • blinds work.
  • lulu can poly morph it.
  • he can be stunned and ccd before the dash.
  • fiora has a block and jax's counterstrike also blocks it
  • champions who go invulnerable can avoid it
  • kayle, taric and kindred can block it
  • slows HEAVILY decrease its damage.
  • Armor reduces the damage significantly
  • ninja tabi exists
  • sterak's gage exists
  • hourglass exists
  • banshee's veil exists
  • miasma from cass prevents the leap
  • poppy's w (although the dash and damage will go thru its cut in half)
  • spell shields reduce the damage once it hits you theres no way to avoid what comes but its not like you cant stop him from reaching a target. a determined hecarim will 100-0 you but theres definitely counterplay and more than what ive listed here. i could make an entire list on how to avoid, counter, prevent this ability since there's so much you can do against it.
IAmWoralo1 votes

https://i.imgflip.com/1zwqsp.jpg If you can't respond..

Champion Skin1 votes
  • poppy's w (although the dash and damage will go thru its cut in half)

How would that work? Poppy W only apply a minor knock up and some damage when enemies dash through it.... and usually dashes either apply all the damage or apply non of the damage if the dash is canceled and doesn't connect

How would it deal half the damage?

Yura May Zing1 votes

Because Hecarim's E is an enhanced attack and a spell the AUTO ATTACK damage will go through, but the "spell" part of it will be blocked, so the auto attack damage will go through, since the auto attack will collide (and even push poppy) but the enhanced damage (which makes up the big majority of the damage) will be mitigated. Its a very VERY strange interaction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_brxBkHZZms

VexingRaven3 votes

Basically Riot nerfed the mechanics of some assassins, but kept others the same and didn't touch the pseudo-assassins like Hecarim or J4.

Strawberrycocoa2 votes

My biggest gripe is the proliferation of stealth/invis mechanics. Nothing sucks more than somebody leaping out from actual thin air to kill you. Stealth champs don't even really need to TRY all that hard, they just walk up safely then POW.

VexingRaven2 votes

{quoted}

My biggest gripe is the proliferation of stealth/invis mechanics. Nothing sucks more than somebody leaping out from actual thin air to kill you. Stealth champs don't even really need to TRY all that hard, they just walk up safely then POW.

What proliferation of stealth/invis mechanics? They haven't added a stealth champion in years. Eve got reworked, Shaco got gutted, Rengar got gutted, Kha'Zix... Well, he's kha'zix, he is stilll really strong. Talon is still strong but his stealth isn't exactly "out of nowhere". Twitch is crazy strong but he's not an assassin (Ah who am I kidding, he's a better assassin than half the actual assassins these days).

Its All Skillzz1 votes

only ap assassin left is Ezreal And he has to use his only escape to pull it off unless they face check then you can just R W Q and they will prob die.

Meanwhile zed press R miss every shuriken AA to proc duskblade ignite an you die lol then he ports back to his shadow an laughs.

An Draoi4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Its All Skillzz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qIlJ38Rf,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-11-23T02:58:24.821+0000)

only ap assassin left is Ezreal And he has to use his only escape to pull it off unless they face check then you can just R W Q and they will prob die.

Meanwhile zed press R miss every shuriken AA to proc duskblade ignite an you die lol then he ports back to his shadow an laughs.

spams zed laughter, flashes mastery 8

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