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Zyra's mage update survey questions

Vekkna··3 votes·863 views

Riot sometimes refers to its survey data as a counterpoint to forum discussion/complaints. I play a lot of Zyra, so I've been getting pop-up survey questions about her recently, which I assume is in preparation for her update.

The first survey was, essentially, "do you enjoy playing Zyra?" The second survey was, "do you think Zyra's passive is core to her identity?"

Let's just say that those two questions had me scratching my head a little. I'm not sure exactly what value the first question has from a data perspective. If I'm playing her a lot, I probably like her. If a player doesn't play Zyra and does not like her, why does that player's opinion matter? I don't get it.

The second survey just made me facepalm. After all this time and all the discussion around Zyra's passive, Riot feels they need more data to decide whether it's an important part of Zyra's identity? I just can't....

Here are some suggestions for questions I'd actually like to answer:

1) Do you prefer to play Zyra in mid lane or support?

Mid. Support is fine, but I'm tired of being underleveled and facing Jhin/Naut and hypermobile mage adcs every game.

2) Do Zyra's plants behave the way you expected or intended when using them?

No, not if minions are anywhere nearby. If you AA target a plant to an enemy champ, the enemy should not be able to dance in and out of range to reset priorities. Plants should automatically target champs that damage you or attack them. In one recent game I had a Q plant with no minions in its area, and the enemy walked into the plant's range and AA'd it to death without the plant ever firing a shot.

3) What is your favorite/least favorite part of Zyra's kit?

  • damage
  • crowd control
  • zone control
  • mobility
  • resources
  • other

Most favorite is the damage. In a meta full of hypertanks and squishy adcs it's great to have a kit that can handle both very well via build and different skill combos.

Maybe I'll get some more surveys as I continue playing her, and hopefully those other surveys will instill more confidence that players' concerns will be addressed at some point.

10 Comments

PopCorn Chick3n2 votes

I also got a survey like you had after a game but sadly I didn't get to see the second question pop up like yours :C. The first question was pretty tricky because I am pretty happy with Zyra's current's kit except for her passive (although I was really happy to get double kills with it in 3v1 from last week.. probably very a lucky situation) and her E's small width and slow missile speed. If they are going to change her passive and maybe rework her E to have bigger width and longer root at low level, I would pick strongly agree on her gameplay and kit. Because her root and passive are unreliable for such a squishy champion like her, I only put neutral but more toward the agree with her kit.

Vekkna1 votes

The second question was its own survey after another 5 or 10 games.

Titanium702 votes

I loved her as a Mid-Laner after she got her Post-Release-Nerf... damn she was so broken back than. x'D

Sadly she got nerfed even more and the mobilitycreep increased as well. What I liked on Zyra was the simple fact she can blow up whole Teams and punishes position mistakes extremely. But this simple kit caused alot of problems, that why I dont think we'll get something similar.

I could imagine Zyra as Mage with massive zone controll, creating walls of thorns, using a ton of plants to trap her opponents. Zyra rouses the most interest for me considering the reworks I'm quite curious about her and would enjoy picking her up again.

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

Riot sometimes refers to its survey data as a counterpoint to forum discussion/complaints. I play a lot of Zyra, so I've been getting pop-up survey questions about her recently, which I assume is in preparation for her update.

The first survey was, essentially, "do you enjoy playing Zyra?" The second survey was, "do you think Zyra's passive is core to her identity?"

Let's just say that those two questions had me scratching my head a little. I'm not sure exactly what value the first question has from a data perspective. If I'm playing her a lot, I probably like her. If a player doesn't play Zyra and does not like her, why does that player's opinion matter? I don't get it.

Well,I'm not on NA(so I don't get surverys),but I can give you an example of why this can be valid: I personally used to play zyra A LOT(and I mean A LOT),and I occasionally do still,but I do so pretty much only because I used to,she's not fun for me anymore,she's too reliant on her opponents to play poorly for me to find her fun.

Anyway,this may be something riot is interested in,I'm not sure.

The second survey just made me facepalm. After all this time and all the discussion around Zyra's passive, Riot feels they need more data to decide whether it's an important part of Zyra's identity? I just can't....

Well,opinions on her passive vary,I personally am fine with it and think it's an ok passive for her considering her current kit,I don't think it's part of her core identity though.

Here are some suggestions for questions I'd actually like to answer:

1) Do you prefer to play Zyra in mid lane or support?

Mid. Support is fine, but I'm tired of being underleveled and facing Jhin/Naut and hypermobile mage adcs every game.

Well they might assume that you prefer her where you play her,but yeah,could be a good question for a survery.

2) Do Zyra's plants behave the way you expected or intended when using them?

No, not if minions are anywhere nearby. If you AA target a plant to an enemy champ, the enemy should not be able to dance in and out of range to reset priorities. Plants should automatically target champs that damage you or attack them. In one recent game I had a Q plant with no minions in its area, and the enemy walked into the plant's range and AA'd it to death without the plant ever firing a shot.

3) What is your favorite/least favorite part of Zyra's kit?

  • damage
  • crowd control
  • zone control
  • mobility
  • resources
  • other

Most favorite is the damage. In a meta full of hypertanks and squishy adcs it's great to have a kit that can handle both very well via build and different skill combos.

Maybe I'll get some more surveys as I continue playing her, and hopefully those other surveys will instill more confidence that players' concerns will be addressed at some point.

Yeah,it's strange that they don't ask that.

Vekkna1 votes

We've discussed Zyra before, so I'm pretty intimately familiar with your opinion of her from last season.

That said, I'd encourage you to pick her up again this season. Last season she felt passable but not quite right, and this season has brought some solid QoL improvements for her.

-direct regen buff -indirect regen buff from super-early 100% regen on Frostfang -indirect utility buff from vision changes/few wards -indirect survivability, kill-potential, and utility buffs from Frost Queen's active; goes a long way toward offsetting low MS -Frost Queen's is core, and the extra income offsets AP item cost nerfs which buffs Zyra's power curve relative to other mages

I know you've been exasperated in the past with other Zyra players defending her by saying "it's just not her meta." Well...this is her meta, in my opinion. These are my reasons:

-ADCs everywhere: she can blow them up in a combo, her plants can block skill shots (looking at you Lucian and Ezreal), they're so squishy that plants are super-effective at zoning, you out-range almost all of them, and even the mobile ADCs aren't mobile enough most of the time.

-Assassins everywhere: Frost Queen's core means fewer surprises. Mana regen buffs and early CDR on first item (with scaling CDR glyphs) means you can farm in lane with just your plants and stay at zero-risk range. You can also afford to frequently use plants and seeds for vision. You have the tools to farm safely early, and you crush assassins in team fights.

-Anti-AD tanks everywhere: Zyra's sustained damage potential is near the top for mages (if not the highest...Anivia and Azir are probably the only ones close to her?). This has always been one of her strengths, but tanks in general are stacking more armor and less MR most games because of the AD meta. A core with high mpen and sustained damage is shredding tanks right now.

-Fewer long-range CC mages: Aside from Lux (which is a skill matchup in her favor, imo), there just aren't many threatening mages seeing play. Viktor, Syndra, Anivia, Azir, Heimer, Cho, Nidalee, Diana, etc. all have low or non-existent play rates in mid. The only common matchups that can be problematic are Ahri, Yasuo, Lux, and Morgana; you can easily farm safe against Morg and Ahri. Lux isn't hard if you know her power spikes; bully her pre-6 then gtfo if you don't have a Negatron yet. Yasuo is a skill matchup 100% based on baiting windwall and then farming his ass once you get Haunting Guise.

Anyway, I think you would be pleasantly surprised if you gave her a try. I think this season has been the only time Zyra has felt independently powerful instead of, as you say, capitalizing on "surprise factor" from enemies not realizing her huge dps spikes at 3, 6, Guise, Rylai's, and Liandry's.

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

We've discussed Zyra before, so I'm pretty intimately familiar with your opinion of her from last season.

Well I don't remember you in specific,I'm just gonna give you a heads up that we are unlikely to agree on her current state.

That said, I'd encourage you to pick her up again this season. Last season she felt passable but not quite right, and this season has brought some solid QoL improvements for her.

As I've said,I still play her on occasion,but only because I used to,and it's been the same horrible experience.

-direct regen buff -indirect regen buff from super-early 100% regen on Frostfang -indirect utility buff from vision changes/few wards -indirect survivability, kill-potential, and utility buffs from Frost Queen's active; goes a long way toward offsetting low MS -Frost Queen's is core, and the extra income offsets AP item cost nerfs which buffs Zyra's power curve relative to other mages I know you've been exasperated in the past with other Zyra players defending her by saying "it's just not her meta." Well...this is her meta, in my opinion. These are my reasons:

That's a very bold claim considering her competitive presence(or more accuratenly: lack thereof it),and the same attitude from higher elos. Look,the old cinderhulk meta,that was zyra's meta,less pressure from ganks,bigger demand for dps,adc buffs mean more importance for assassins who can now look for picks better,and boots of swiftness buffs mean a more mobile game overall,and even then she didn't amount to much,zyra's state is detached from the meta. I agree this is still better than her old state as far as mid lane goes...probably,but going from horrible to terrible isn't something I'm very interested in,and with fqc nerfed+morrelo's/athene's buffed this is pretty much where she is against good opponents.

-ADCs everywhere: she can blow them up in a combo, her plants can block skill shots (looking at you Lucian and Ezreal), they're so squishy that plants are super-effective at zoning, you out-range almost all of them, and even the mobile ADCs aren't mobile enough most of the time.

-Assassins everywhere: Frost Queen's core means fewer surprises. Mana regen buffs and early CDR on first item (with scaling CDR glyphs) means you can farm in lane with just your plants and stay at zero-risk range. You can also afford to frequently use plants and seeds for vision. You have the tools to farm safely early, and you crush assassins in team fights.

-Anti-AD tanks everywhere: Zyra's sustained damage potential is near the top for mages (if not the highest...Anivia and Azir are probably the only ones close to her?). This has always been one of her strengths, but tanks in general are stacking more armor and less MR most games because of the AD meta. A core with high mpen and sustained damage is shredding tanks right now.

-Fewer long-range CC mages: Aside from Lux (which is a skill matchup in her favor, imo), there just aren't many threatening mages seeing play. Viktor, Syndra, Anivia, Azir, Heimer, Cho, Nidalee, Diana, etc. all have low or non-existent play rates in mid. The only common matchups that can be problematic are Ahri, Yasuo, Lux, and Morgana; you can easily farm safe against Morg and Ahri. Lux isn't hard if you know her power spikes; bully her pre-6 then gtfo if you don't have a Negatron yet. Yasuo is a skill matchup 100% based on baiting windwall and then farming his ass once you get Haunting Guise.

Anyway, I think you would be pleasantly surprised if you gave her a try. I think this season has been the only time Zyra has felt independently powerful instead of, as you say, capitalizing on "surprise factor" from enemies not realizing her huge dps spikes at 3, 6, Guise, Rylai's, and Liandry's.

Look,when I play zyra(or any champion for that matter),I actually never pay attention to my winrate(which is ironically 100% in solo q last season,at least on this account),I pay attention to what I and my opponents do,if they are idiots I don't really care on how the game goes(I enjoy a challenge more than I enjoy winning),if they know what they are doing that's when I'm interested and that's also where zyra falls flat,part of improving in this game is being aware of what you could've done better so you can improve,and it's very hard to enjoy playing a champion when once you go against competent opponents the only thing you can think of is "picking this shit is screwing me over so fucking hard I can't fucking believe it".

I get that zyra can crush incompetent opponents really hard(I really do,that's also why I won 6/6 ranked solo q games I played with her last season),but this was always something very minor for me,and I get that others will see this as amazing,but I try to play the game competitively and for a challenge,and zyra is just something decent for winning games at average,she is absolutely horrible against opponents who know what they are doing,sure that might average still postive with how she crushed those who do not,but the former is critical to me and the latter is worthless.

Vekkna1 votes

That's a very bold claim considering her competitive presence(or more accuratenly: lack thereof it),and the same attitude from higher elos.

Master+ is always a different meta than the rest of us play, and Zyra doesn't get much love there outside OTPs because she's too vulnerable to picks in the meta of "farm your bro lane and never fight until the grand game-deciding fight."

I've seen a few tier lists from plat-master players floating around Summoner School that place Zyra in first or second tier for gold-diamond (if I remember correctly). She's still very poorly represented, but she is getting some attention from some high ranked players.

As for representation, I think Zyra's play rate will be low and stay low regardless of how good she is at the moment because Lux, who fills the same general role but is about 100x easier to play.

if they know what they are doing that's when I'm interested and that's also where zyra falls flat, part of improving in this game is being aware of what you could've done better so you can improve, and it's very hard to enjoy playing a champion when once you go against competent opponents the only thing you can think of is "picking this shit is screwing me over so fucking hard I can't fucking believe it."

You've played her at a higher rank than me, so I can't disagree. I do wonder how unique this is to Zyra compared to champs like Vel, Syndra, Ziggs, or Malz. What is it that competent opponents do to make her so helpless in mid? And how do you know (or what make you believe) that none of your wins are against competent players?

My impression has always been that Zyra has a pretty high skill ceiling with quite a few tricks up her sleeve to outplay opponents. At the very least, she's certainly not a "stat check" champ like Kayle, Irelia, Annie, Yi, MF, etc. When I play Annie, for example, it's just waiting for (short) cooldowns and using brute force.

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

Master+ is always a different meta than the rest of us play, and Zyra doesn't get much love there outside OTPs because she's too vulnerable to picks in the meta of "farm your bro lane and never fight until the grand game-deciding fight."

Aside from the fact they consistently do golems/gromp there(because this community has the capacity to adapt of your average footwear),the meta there isn't different,if you watch streams people mostly just play better,and aggression is very common in all lanes.

I've seen a few tier lists from plat-master players floating around Summoner School that place Zyra in first or second tier for gold-diamond (if I remember correctly). She's still very poorly represented, but she is getting some attention from some high ranked players.

She isn't poorly represented,she's not played because when she is played people get disappointed(last example of this I've seen is this: https://www.reddit.com/r/zyramains/comments/4757qb/reflection_about_zyra_after_game_with_piglet/ ) A lot of people write a bunch of stupid guides,a good support main(I wouldn't expect mid mains to even mention her) who isn't biased in her favor(isn't one of her otps) is highly unlikely to recommend her to you,and definitely won't say she is in the top 2 tiers,is very unlikely to put her in the third as well,and it's rather common to put her in the bottom tier(unless they have a tier for troll picks,then she might be above that),oh and I'm not just saying this,I've asked around(a few months ago,but I don't feel much changed since then).

As for representation, I think Zyra's play rate will be low and stay low regardless of how good she is at the moment because Lux, who fills the same general role but is about 100x easier to play.

I mean I get it that mid players like to focus on themselves,and support players like to focus on themselves,but most of zyra's current pickrate is as a support,she doesn't really compete with lux there.

You've played her at a higher rank than me, so I can't disagree. I do wonder how unique this is to Zyra compared to champs like Vel, Syndra, Ziggs, or Malz. What is it that competent opponents do to make her so helpless in mid? And how do you know (or what make you believe) that none of your wins are against competent players?

Well I've played draft a lot,and since there aren't many people playing it,you start knowing people by name,I mean I can still generally tell how good an opponent is just by playing against him,but there are also people I know by name.

Anywho this notion is rather common(last time I've seen it was here: https://www.reddit.com/r/zyramains/comments/4764fk/can_any_of_you_zyra_mains_tell_me_why_lastshadow9/ ),and it is based on quite a lot of things,but it mostly comes down to the fact that since her kit is mostly defensive in nature and she is immobile and vulnerable when moving around the map,she is very easy to work around if you are willing to bother with it. Honestly the amount of weaknesses she has is just absurd,if you take anivia for example you: Get good pick potential through her wall,get anti sieging with her ult,and get some safety against assassins with her passive,zyra on the other hand needs to risk too much to try and make a pick(skillshot is slow and unreliable and if you get caught you die),is absolutely terrible against siege and has a lot of trouble vs assassins all around,and is suprisingly not too great at wave clearing hence having issues to punish roam,you'd think that since she only has a strength in counterengage that she'll be effective against all divers,you'd be wrong. Ofc if people group mid constantly for no fucking reason she's great.

My impression has always been that Zyra has a pretty high skill ceiling with quite a few tricks up her sleeve to outplay opponents. At the very least, she's certainly not a "stat check" champ like Kayle, Irelia, Annie, Yi, MF, etc. When I play Annie, for example, it's just waiting for (short) cooldowns and using brute force.

See that's the thing,zyra's not a stat check,but plenty of her opponents are,the good ones will force one and then pass it,her defensive capabilities are too lacking to prevent that(seriously her level 1 e is a 0.75 SNARE,syndra has a 1.5 stun+knockback+way more reliable,viktor has a shield+slow+speedboost,anivia will shotgun you(if you get close) with her 1.5 sec stun,brand is unreliable but a 2 sec stun is a scary thing).

Vekkna1 votes

https://www.reddit.com/r/zyramains/comments/4764fk/can_any_of_you_zyra_mains_tell_me_why_lastshadow9/ ),and it is based on quite a lot of things, but it mostly comes down to the fact that since her kit is mostly defensive in nature and she is immobile and vulnerable when moving around the map, she is very easy to work around if you are willing to bother with it.

Yep, there's my answer. I've played her mostly between silver/gold, and this pretty much explains my subjective feelings about her. My games are full of enemy engage champs (Lee, Yi, Malph, Mumu, Naut, Trundle, Poppy, etc). Those champs make it pretty easy to unload your entire kit on an entire team so long as you don't eat the initial engage.

I mean I get it that mid players like to focus on themselves,and support players like to focus on themselves,but most of zyra's current pickrate is as a support,she doesn't really compete with lux there.

She does not feel strong as a support. Gank vulnerability is still a problem. I can usually root a ganker, but that's just cuz the jungler fucked up (I guess I do know that feeling). I still do pretty well as support, but I don't feel particularly strong.

In a solo lane I feel strong and have a lot more opportunities for counter-engage at drag/herald, ARAM, and ganks.

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

Yep, there's my answer. I've played her mostly between silver/gold, and this pretty much explains my subjective feelings about her. My games are full of enemy engage champs (Lee, Yi, Malph, Mumu, Naut, Trundle, Poppy, etc). Those champs make it pretty easy to unload your entire kit on an entire team so long as you don't eat the initial engage.

I don't know,maybe,I have my doubts. Thing is zyra in the lower elos is also easy to mess up on,and maybe some people there know how to punish it better than others,if her winrate would show such a pattern then maybe,but I don't know if it does. At any rate I think her issues are still there,it's just more likely that a player won't be able to point them out,but will still feel they are the.

She does not feel strong as a support.

I play her in both roles and she feels more or less the same and with the same issues in both lanes.

Gank vulnerability is still a problem.

Mid as well.

I can usually root a ganker, but that's just cuz the jungler fucked up (I guess I do know that feeling). I still do pretty well as support, but I don't feel particularly strong.

Is it that you feel that zyra is weaker than other supports? or is it that you don't feel particularly strong as a support in general? It's hard for me to understand your position on support zyra when I'm not sure what you think of playing support in general.

In a solo lane I feel strong and have a lot more opportunities for counter-engage at drag/herald, ARAM, and ganks.

Thing is most of the people playing zyra currently still prefer her as support,so I would guess that they disagree with you that her mid lane is better,she also isn't particularly overshadowed by anyone there(as she is rather distinct as a support), aside from by sheer power that is...

Honestly I think zyra has good potential as a champion,it's just squandered on moronic winrate excuses(first and only rule of the winrate argument: only bring it up with it suits your point),she's in quite a bad spot,she has been in that spot for a very long time,pro players are aware of it,high elo players are aware of it,lower elos sort of understand that, but can't quite point a finger on it.

Riot needs to stop with their moronic winrate crap,if you balance champions around incompetence and unwillingness to adapt games will go stale and feel the same because they will keep nerfing anything which requires playing differently from their opponents,this is the big issue with zyra,and I fear they will make her strengths and weaknesses more similar to other champions as a solution(though honestly,I fear they would make her distinct garbage(cause winrates,hurr durr!) much more).

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