Why should falling behind be more forgiving for junglers?

Frontline Fury··4 votes·1,114 views

I see so much whinng from junglers after the jungle changes. So here’s an opinion from the other side of the looking glass.

The jungle changes have made jungling risky. I get that a lot of junglers are unfamiliar with the concept of consequence for your mistakes, but is it REALLY so unreasonable for you to fall behind if you die and not be able to keep playing like it never happened?

Every lane position has faced this for years. If you die twice in lane, you cant just expect to walk back in and play like it never happened. You are behind and everybody else is ahead.

So WHY, pray tell, do you expect this to be different for junglers? What makes them deserve special treatment and no consequences to their mistakes compared to all the other roles?

Suck it up and learn to play carefully. You now actually have to consider wether a course of action is the smart thing to do or not - you can’t just jump into a mistake you could make just fine back when junglers were oppressively unfair for everybody else in the game - that’s exactly why they got changed in the first place.

That you are not running down a lane like the rest of us does not give you the right to special treatment. Junglers provide an important strategical advantage, sure, but that does NOT mean they are worth more than the other roles and therefore deserve to be exempt from the rules that govern the rest of us.

“But lane peasant, the enemy jungler invaded me and beat me and its unfair”

Have you ever played a darius lane? A caitlyn lane? A xerath lane?

Everybody gets zoned. Everybody has to fight for their farm. Your scuttle crab is the equivalent to our cannon minion - we have to fight dor them every step along the way. Now you do too.

“But but invades are unfair!”

Have you ever invaded the enemy jungle? You put yourself at extreme risk. The enemy team can box you in at any second. This is what Riot calls “playmaking”. When you get invaded and die, the enemy jungler made a risky, daring play and succeeded - that’s the whole concept behind risk/reward. Learn from it and adapt - most junglers are capable of staying high on health in their own jungle, and every player begins the game with a free ward. If you want one more, it costs less gold than you earn from clearing any jungle camp.

And keep in mind, the enemy is in your jungle. You have the advantage here - you can retreat in any direction, your opponent meanwhile can only back out towards the river. Chances are its easier for you to use the bushes here to your advantage.

The jungle has historically been the most forgiving role in the game. Now you’re forced to play the dangerous pvp game like the rest of us - the one where you need to compete with your role rival rather than sit and right click AI opponents for 8 minutes.

So if you still insist the jungle exp changes are unfair - welcome to league of legends. You’re finally playing the same game all your laners play. So better start thinking rather than smashing your face into the keyboard and then crying on the boards when it doesn’t work.

13 Comments

PhantomGG7 votes

and the dumb ass award of the day goes to~!

Frontline Fury1 votes

{quoted}

and the dumb ass award of the day goes to~!

Why? Because i think its fair that a jungler actually has to play carefully if they go 0/2, just like a laner has to give up their entire lane because they get instantly blown up by their opponent?

Alright... How about you provide some reasons?

Wait, my bad. Gold rank. I nearly forgot what that's like. My condolences.

Warlord Rhinark3 votes

...It's really gotten to the point where GOLD players aren't even allowed to talk anymore?

Wow.

Frontline Fury1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qEktbaaz,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-05-23T06:28:39.899+0000)

...It's really gotten to the point where GOLD players aren't even allowed to talk anymore?

Wow.

I have never said gold players are not allowed to speak. But you don't consider gold highly ranked, do you? Platinum 4 is where low elo ends and the middle elos begin.

The fact he (or any of the other people that are downvoting my thread) do not have any clever reasons for WHY i am wrong clearly prove my point. They do not comment and explain why they believe me to be wrong - they just downvote because they're upset i disagree with them, and can't take criticism like most low rank players. That's exactly why they are stuck in the low ranks.

I'm sorry if i seem like a superior bitch, but as i have been firmly hardstuck in diamond for two years i have learnt just how bad most players are. Heck, most diamond players actually suck at the game - myself included - so how do you think that makes gold players look in comparison, from my perspective?

I am very biased towards gold players because they are extremely similar to silver players - except most of them have forgotten how to have fun in the game. They have bloated egos and are by far the most toxic bunch out of any rank i have been to - and i have visited all but the high elos, from Bronze 4 through Silver 3, Gold 3, Platinum 2 and now Diamond 3.

As i like to put it, Gold players are just silver players with shiny egos. If they would only talk to me rather than fling insults, i might actually change my mind - but as it is, i take the opinions of silver players more seriously than gold players, because most silver players do not have bloated ego syndrome like the gold players do.

Oh, and i havent claimed diamond players are any better. Gold and Diamond is very similar.

But Master players and above would never bother responding to threads like these. They're better than that. Therefore nobody will put me in my place.

Of course, that's a challenge too. I would love to have the opportunity to hear the opinions of someone better than i am. That's the best way to learn and improve.

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

The fact he (or any of the other people that are downvoting my thread) do not have any clever reasons for WHY i am wrong clearly prove my point. They do not comment and explain why they believe me to be wrong - they just downvote because they're upset i disagree with them, and can't take criticism like most low rank players. That's exactly why they are stuck in the low ranks.

Everyone can disagree with you, rank has nothing to do with it. You can't just say "OH ALL LOW RANKS HATE ME" because everyone can hate you, both those worse, and those better, than you.

They have bloated egos

Clearly you have a bloated ego as well considering the fact that you FEEL THE NEED to point out their rank even though it has NOTHING to do with the conversation currently at hand.

If they would only talk to me rather than fling insults

Again, you're making it sound like ALL Gold players are like this. In truth, EVERYONE can fling insults at you, regardless of their rank. Just blaming ALL Gold players on the whole ordeal is a dick move.

But Master players and above would never bother responding to threads like these. They're better than that. Therefore nobody will put me in my place.

I- I don't even know what you mean by this.

I would love to have the opportunity to hear the opinions of someone better than i am. That's the best way to learn and improve.

I will have to agree, but just because it's the "best way" doesn't mean you should COMPLETELY DISREGARD everything that comes from someone that isn't higher rank than you are.

Frontline Fury1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qEktbaaz,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-23T08:19:30.459+0000)

Everyone can disagree with you, rank has nothing to do with it. You can't just say "OH ALL LOW RANKS HATE ME" because everyone can hate you, both those worse, and those better, than you.

Clearly you have a bloated ego as well considering the fact that you FEEL THE NEED to point out their rank even though it has NOTHING to do with the conversation currently at hand.

Again, you're making it sound like ALL Gold players are like this. In truth, EVERYONE can fling insults at you, regardless of their rank. Just blaming ALL Gold players on the whole ordeal is a dick move.

I- I don't even know what you mean by this.

I will have to agree, but just because it's the "best way" doesn't mean you should COMPLETELY DISREGARD everything that comes from someone that isn't higher rank than you are.

The reason i point out rank is because it is an indicator of game knowledge, understanding and skill.

Why do you assume i completely disregard the opinions of lower ranked players than myself? I haven't disregarded any opinions in this post.

Because nobody made any. Everybody just downvotes without supplying any reason - and you are arguing while refusing to discuss any of the things i mentioned in the post itself. Where are these opinions i am supposedly disregarding? All i see is "the dumbass award goes to" and you claiming i am oppressing low rank players simply because i am higher ranked.

The post is about the fact the boards were flooded with complains about the jungle changes before anyone even made an attempt at learning how to play with the changes. These people refuse to even try to learn - they insist on playing the way they did before the patch, when junglers were absurdly broken to the point they forced riot to nerf jungle exp as a whole, and then when they do not succeed they come whine on the boards instead of think about why they failed.

I explained at several points what is good about these changes and why they are fair towards the other players in the game. The junglers dont realize that they have been recieving special treatment for a very, very long time now - a jungle designed for older, weaker champions dominated by newer, stronger ones.

And hey, i've switched to jungle main. I'm currently only playing jungle, and i'm seeing a lot of success in it.

But then again, i guess i'm an asshole for doing well. I am clearly in the wrong for succeeding where others fail, and i am a terrible person for not joining in on the "make junglers special little snowflakes again" hype train. Right?

Rant aside, i'm waiting for your examples on why you think i am wrong.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

you are arguing while refusing to discuss any of the things i mentioned in the post itself.

Yeah because right now I'm not talking about the jungle changes. I'm talking about the treatment of other players based on their ranks.

The post is about the fact the boards were flooded with complains about the jungle changes before anyone even made an attempt at learning how to play with the changes. These people refuse to even try to learn - they insist on playing the way they did before the patch, when junglers were absurdly broken to the point they forced riot to nerf jungle exp as a whole, and then when they do not succeed they come whine on the boards instead of think about why they failed.

While I do not know the exact percentage of people that think this way, I'm certain atleast 2/3 of the downvotes on your post is from people that actually have tried playing in this "new way" you're describing and still think the EXP nerfs are a bit harsh.

When you come into the room with this "oh jungle is easy y'all just suck l2p OMEGALUL" of course people are going to downvote you.

I explained at several points what is good about these changes and why they are fair towards the other players in the game. The junglers dont realize that they have been recieving special treatment for a very, very long time now - a jungle designed for older, weaker champions dominated by newer, stronger ones.

And people disagree with those points.

And they're ALLOWED to disagree with these points.

Just because YOU think something is a good change doesn't mean everyone else just automatically agrees with your viewpoints.

Yes, coming with opinions WOULD push the discussion forward but just because they don't you can't just "oh you didn't say why I'm wrong so I'm just going to point out your rank for no reason and blame your rank for why everyone hates me OMEGALUL"

And hey, i've switched to jungle main. I'm currently only playing jungle, and i'm seeing a lot of success in it.

Honestly, good for you bro. I don't have much experience with the whole "jangle" thing but if you find something good out of it, go for it my dude.

But then again, i guess i'm an asshole for doing well. I am clearly in the wrong for succeeding where others fail, and i am a terrible person for not joining in on the "make junglers special little snowflakes again" hype train. Right?

No. Not at all.

You're allowed to be good at what you're doing.

But you're not allowed to just "OH EVERYONE AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT AND STOP DOWNVOTING MY POST OH AND GOLD PLAYERS ARE EGOTISTICAL"

You should take downvotes as a numerical value that tells you how much people agree with you, or don't agree with you. You should NOT take downvotes as an attack on you as a person.

Rant aside, i'm waiting for your examples on why you think i am wrong.

I don't even want to go into the clusterfuck that is the jungle changes. I don't play jungle very often and I'm not the one who called you a dumbass, so I'm not the one who has to come up with these examples you seek. You'll have to get them out of the other guy.

Frontline Fury1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qEktbaaz,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-23T09:21:46.210+0000)

Yeah because right now I'm not talking about the jungle changes. I'm talking about the treatment of other players based on their ranks.

While I do not know the exact percentage of people that think this way, I'm certain atleast 2/3 of the downvotes on your post is from people that actually have tried playing in this "new way" you're describing and still think the EXP nerfs are a bit harsh.

When you come into the room with this "oh jungle is easy y'all just suck l2p OMEGALUL" of course people are going to downvote you.

And people disagree with those points.

And they're ALLOWED to disagree with these points.

Just because YOU think something is a good change doesn't mean everyone else just automatically agrees with your viewpoints.

Yes, coming with opinions WOULD push the discussion forward but just because they don't you can't just "oh you didn't say why I'm wrong so I'm just going to point out your rank for no reason and blame your rank for why everyone hates me OMEGALUL"

Honestly, good for you bro. I don't have much experience with the whole "jangle" thing but if you find something good out of it, go for it my dude.

No. Not at all.

You're allowed to be good at what you're doing.

But you're not allowed to just "OH EVERYONE AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT AND STOP DOWNVOTING MY POST OH AND GOLD PLAYERS ARE EGOTISTICAL"

You should take downvotes as a numerical value that tells you how much people agree with you, or don't agree with you. You should NOT take downvotes as an attack on you as a person.

I don't even want to go into the clusterfuck that is the jungle changes. I don't play jungle very often and I'm not the one who called you a dumbass, so I'm not the one who has to come up with these examples you seek. You'll have to get them out of the other guy.

Of course, of course. People disagree with me, but NOBODY can think of a single reason why they do. Sure.

Oh so we’re going down the path of “not my freaking job”? Sure. Seems that’s what everyone is doing.

And you know why?

Because they are just as, if not more, clueless about the jungle than you are. At least you are capable and reflected enough to realize you have little experience with the role.

Complaining about the jungle is more of a mob mentality thing at this point. It leads back to the thing about meta slaves and how most people just fanatically follow what they are told rather than make up their own opinions.

I’m disappointed that you can’t understand the whole rank thing. I am more than willing to listen to lower ranked players - problem is that, as you can see, most of you dont have the necessary game knowledge to hold an intelligent discussion with me. So instead you go looking for other things to use against me, such as crying “discrimination!”.

I’m sorry, is it offensive to call a gold player a gold player? Because the rank is an estimate of your skill at the game. The better you are the clearer your understanding of game mechanics.

If you rarely play jungle then you might have noticed the impact of the jungle changes - by the whole not getting brutally murdered by them before 03:00. The jungle changes have noticeable impact on laners because now you people actually get to play the early game yourself.

But no, nobody cares about that. All anyone cares about is that other people are complaining about it and therefore it must be bad. Junglers can no longer be game changers before 05:00 if they choose to afk farm in safety.

And they dont stop to think if maybe thats what riot was going for. All they see is that suddenly, jungling is difficult because they have to think.

Something all the other people visiting the thread seem notoriously bad at...

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

I’m disappointed that you can’t understand the whole rank thing. I am more than willing to listen to lower ranked players - problem is that, as you can see, most of you dont have the necessary game knowledge to hold an intelligent discussion with me. So instead you go looking for other things to use against me, such as crying “discrimination!”.

I’m sorry, is it offensive to call a gold player a gold player? Because the rank is an estimate of your skill at the game. The better you are the clearer your understanding of game mechanics.

Of course I understand low ranking players have less game knowledge than higher ranking players.

That's why they're low ranking.

But I refuse to understand that this is an excuse to rank-shame others and bring their rank into the discussion for seemingly no reason.

You see someone has a Gold rank, yes?

Keep that to yourself.

No need to accuse them in public as if they just tried to sexually harass you.

This won't give you Internet Points, you know. It will just make you seem like a dick.

If you rarely play jungle then you might have noticed the impact of the jungle changes - by the whole not getting brutally murdered by them before 03:00. The jungle changes have noticeable impact on laners because now you people actually get to play the early game yourself.

Yes, but I've also noticed people going Xin Zhao top lane now and that makes me want to jump off a bridge.

Frontline Fury1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qEktbaaz,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-24T06:13:02.534+0000)

Of course I understand low ranking players have less game knowledge than higher ranking players.

That's why they're low ranking.

But I refuse to understand that this is an excuse to rank-shame others and bring their rank into the discussion for seemingly no reason.

You see someone has a Gold rank, yes?

Keep that to yourself.

No need to accuse them in public as if they just tried to sexually harass you.

This won't give you Internet Points, you know. It will just make you seem like a dick.

Yes, but I've also noticed people going Xin Zhao top lane now and that makes me want to jump off a bridge.

Funny, i climbed to diamond with xin top.

You seem to have set your mind to me being a villain here no matter what i do or say, so i will stop bothering. I tried showing you respect, and it got us nowhere - you keep throwing passive-aggressive derogatory remarks my way, and despite my best attempts at changing your mind you seem rigid in refusing to talk this out like people. I never intended to rank-shame anybody.

In the end, you proved everything i claimed to be facts about gold players to be perfectly true. You are who you are - too rigid in your thinking to learn and adapt. It doesn't matter wether that is by choice or because you are incapable of change, but that no longer matters.

Enough. Have a nice day.

VvVVvV2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frontline Fury,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qEktbaaz,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-05-22T17:39:03.422+0000)

The jungle changes have made jungling risky. I get that a lot of junglers are unfamiliar with the concept of consequence for your mistakes, but is it REALLY so unreasonable for you to fall behind if you die and not be able to keep playing like it never happened?

Preach........so tired of seeing Yi junglers reach their 0 - 6 power spike and just whip out a 1 v 3 triple kill before the game even reaches 20 minutes. its like killing him means nothing because you know the triple or penta is coming.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

You did get like atleast 1500 gold out of killing him over and over again though.

Kaioko1 votes

He has a good point -- jungle this season before the changes has been a little too forgiving and the line between early game junglers vs late game ones has been blurred.

That being out of the way -- Riot did go TOO FAR in their changes. They've already said they are toning those down by making scuttle worth less and increase it's spawn time while compensating that change in normal camps.

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