Champs without mana should not have ability to poke

Heko The Man··49 votes·13,097 views

Zed Akali Yasuo can spam their shit as much as they want

129 Comments

iiGazeii17 votes

With energy users, using an ability limits the abilities they can cast next. Their energy regenerates quickly, but their abilities cost a huge percentage of their resource compared to a mana user. A mana user can use all of their abilities in tandem and need to go through several rotations before their resource will limit what they will cast, but an energy can't go through their full rotation on-cooldown. If they spam even one of their abilities for poke, they won't have enough energy to all-in. They need nearly a full bar before they can commit.

Yasuo landing a Q at melee range isn't poke, it's a trade. Poke is where neither champion can commit on the other, and you're whittling down each other's health. If Yasuo is hitting you with his Q and it isn't a tornado, he's basically in melee range of you, and you can fight back. The fact that you aren't doesn't make it poke, it's him winning the trade because you don't have a cooldown available to contest him. Name one melee champion that doesn't have an ability that could hit another champion at that range or let them close a gap that small.

Champions that are resourceless, like Riven and Yasuo, are gated heavily by cooldowns. Their cooldowns are generally longer than other champions, making them heavily dependent on CDR items and/or a level lead to be effective. They suffer hard if you can stay ahead of them. Their cooldowns are valuable resources in themselves, so if you can bait one early, like Yasuo's Windwall or Riven's shield, you can easily win trades in that extended window.

DaTrout773 votes

{quoted}

With energy users, using an ability limits the abilities they can cast next. Their energy regenerates quickly, but their abilities cost a huge percentage of their resource compared to a mana user. A mana user can use all of their abilities in tandem and need to go through several rotations before their resource will limit what they will cast, but an energy can't go through their full rotation on-cooldown. If they spam even one of their abilities for poke, they won't have enough energy to all-in. They need nearly a full bar before they can commit.

Yasuo landing a Q at melee range isn't poke, it's a trade. Poke is where neither champion can commit on the other, and you're whittling down each other's health. If Yasuo is hitting you with his Q and it isn't a tornado, he's basically in melee range of you, and you can fight back. The fact that you aren't doesn't make it poke, it's him winning the trade because you don't have a cooldown available to contest him. Name one melee champion that doesn't have an ability that could hit another champion at that range or let them close a gap that small.

Champions that are resourceless, like Riven and Yasuo, are gated heavily by cooldowns. Their cooldowns are generally longer than other champions, making them heavily dependent on CDR items and/or a level lead to be effective. They suffer hard if you can stay ahead of them. Their cooldowns are valuable resources in themselves, so if you can bait one early, like Yasuo's Windwall or Riven's shield, you can easily win trades in that extended window.

yeah reason doesnt work with this guy either him or his alt account he uses to upvote and take his side on this. lol Just a little info he is a GP one trick... it blows my mind he is complaining about a yas just sitting on the minion wave waiting for him to go into melee range. Thats basically free money for a GP

SuicidePlank3 votes

{quoted}

yeah reason doesnt work with this guy either him or his alt account he uses to upvote and take his side on this. lol Just a little info he is a GP one trick... it blows my mind he is complaining about a yas just sitting on the minion wave waiting for him to go into melee range. Thats basically free money for a GP

I just have this one account lmao. Because GP is heavily gated by mana costs and CDs, Yasuo isn't by neither. Want to know how much CD one barrel has with no CDR? 18 seconds, that's a high CD. Also, every decent Yasuo can kill GP early on, I played the matchup a few more times then you, even in Plat+.

DaTrout771 votes

{quoted}

I just have this one account lmao. Because GP is heavily gated by mana costs and CDs, Yasuo isn't by neither. Want to know how much CD one barrel has with no CDR? 18 seconds, that's a high CD. Also, every decent Yasuo can kill GP early on, I played the matchup a few more times then you, even in Plat+.

For one GP shouldnt be walking close enough to yasuo early game for him to hit his un-empowered q. Also GP can spam his Q faster than yasuo can spam his tornado. OFC GP dies to yas early, he dies to most early game champs while he is a late game champ.

Listen i understand your frustrated playing against early game champs but the point im trying to make is Energy users cant out poke most champs unless certain conditions are met. Them having the ability to poke has little to nothing to do with you being frustrated with them. If your upset yasuo can get melee to you and hit Q alot on you and you cant trade back because of mana cost and cd, that has nothing to do with poking...

SuicidePlank4 votes

{quoted}

For one GP shouldnt be walking close enough to yasuo early game for him to hit his un-empowered q. Also GP can spam his Q faster than yasuo can spam his tornado.

For one, GP needs to farm and is oom after 4 Qs in the early game, let alone using his "sustain" Ability which costs him 80 and is on a 22 second CD. Where are Yasuos resources? Oh I forgot, he doesn't have to manage them. Also Yasuo can negate Gangplanks Q for free, since he has no other ability to block, thus costing him maybe 60 mana, maybe two kegs because he interrupted the combo.

OFC GP dies to yas early, he dies to most early game champs while he is a late game champ.

Yasuo isn't an early champion. Like GP isn't a late game champ anymore, he is mid-early late, if you just look at his WR per game lenght.

Listen i understand your frustrated playing against early game champs but the point im trying to make is Energy users cant out poke most champs unless certain conditions are met.

I am annoyed how cancer like Akali and Zed exist. Neither having to manage ressources, Zeds energy doesn't matter since he can safely farm under Tower and just spam his poke on CD and Akali can proc her passive with every ability, restoring energy ontop of that restores her W energy too.

Them having the ability to poke has little to nothing to do with you being frustrated with them.

Which was never the point? I didn't create them through being frustrated?

If your upset yasuo can get melee to you and hit Q alot on you

Yasuo doesn't have to move into melee range to use his Q, how often does everyone have to tell you? It is twice his melee range.

and you cant trade back because of mana cost and cd, that has nothing to do with poking...

No, but with shitty game design.

Jo Van Plays2win26 votes

Ahh yes because riven and yasuo have extremly long cool downs lmao

KennysDreamGirl37 votes

this man really used riven and long cds in the same sentence

DeusVult4 votes

And yasuo. His only cooldown is W, which is one of the greatest get out of jail free card abilities in the game

iiGazeii3 votes

{quoted}

this man really used riven and long cds in the same sentence

Yes, she does. All of her cooldowns are above 10 seconds at rank 1, and only one of them goes below 10 seconds at max rank, and she has no CDR or resets built into her kit. Her cooldowns are long. This is why Riven maxes out CDR as fast as she can. This makes her item dependent, so if you can set her behind in gold, she will struggle.

Voluug135 votes

All of her cooldowns are above 10 seconds at rank 1

I hate to break it to you but thats kind of everyone. Actually no, most champions have a lot higher cooldowns that RIven even at lvl1, and sometimes skills that do less that Riven's Q or E. Some people have 20s or more on some skills.

Playing Riven (and probably Yasuo too) really seems to warp how someone views the rest of the game huh

SuicidePlank2 votes

{quoted}

I hate to break it to you but thats kind of everyone. Actually no, most champions have a lot higher cooldowns that RIven even at lvl1. Some people have 20s or more on some skills.

Playing Riven (and probably Yasuo too) really seems to warp how someone views the rest of the game huh

Just compare that to GPs W or E. Both around 18-20 seconds, that's a high cooldown.

DarkTree113 votes

Vladimir hehe buddy wait till you get a load of this one

his poke actively heals him and empowers his next casted abilities

manaless healing poke with side benefits

haha yes

also Kennen exists

as does Gnar

both of whom also get side benefits from poking

3TWarrior2 votes

Quinn Teemo Vayne Heimerdinger Irelia Lissandra Lulu Mordekaiser Rumble Thresh

edit: ranged champions in top lane

and those are only some of the more common ones, and since someone mentioned it above: Gangplank , who basically gets free gold with kleptomancy

Eleshakai6 votes

most of those use mana...

3TWarrior1 votes

yes, and my comment was not about them being manaless but instead showing that there are lots of ranged champions toplane who function similarly to those mentioned

resource management is pretty nonexistent now anyway, especially with so many champions having practically free abilities. Thresh gets an empowered auto every few seconds as an example

Tormentula3 votes

Thresh ?

3TWarrior1 votes

it's actually pretty powerful and works wonders with the AD thresh builds, typically what is taken top but he's so versatile he can do almost anything

Tormentula1 votes

That sounds pretty wintrade ngl.

Especially when Nautilus top or other AD champs like Urgot, Aatrox, and irelia have more engage, power, and utility.

3TWarrior1 votes

it's niche, about as niche as nautilus, but I'll look up the numbers if I can find them XD

dunno about the build itself but thresh top is about 1 in 10,000 picks for diamond and above (or otherwise so low that support is 99.99% of his pick rate) , while in all divisions, thresh top is about 1 in 300 picks

the success rate, however, is miserable, only making about a 39% win rate for the average, so there could be any number of things wrong. Fun to watch youtubes of thresh in off positions though

seems about right for popularity though. Thresh has massive pick rates but is uncommon in top. nautilus has 0.9% pick rate in all divisions and 6.3% of that is in top lane or roughly 5.67 out of 10,000 matches https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/nautilus/euw/top/iron

Stars Shaper11 votes

Yasuo poke requires 2 hits and is rather telegraphed though.

SuicidePlank11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q8hpwkqB,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-05-21T06:48:01.762+0000)

Yasuo poke requires 2 hits and is rather telegraphed though.

No, he just needs to press Q. If you are Melee and want to farm you can't avoid it.

DaTrout776 votes

{quoted}

No, he just needs to press Q. If you are Melee and want to farm you can't avoid it.

besides just dodging it.

SuicidePlank5 votes

{quoted}

besides just dodging it.

His Q is almost an instant cast, while you AA to last hit, you either continue the hit or lose CS, thus get hit by his Q.

Heko The Man4 votes

{quoted}

besides just dodging it.

he can use it when ure going to last hit a minion, you can't dodge it in that momemnt cause u'll be stationary for a sec.

DaTrout773 votes

[{quoted}](name=Heko The Man,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q8hpwkqB,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2019-05-21T07:04:04.765+0000)

he can use it when ure going to last hit a minion, you can't dodge it in that momemnt cause u'll be stationary for a sec.

you will be stationary for a fraction of a second, and he has a windup time to cast it so its telegraphed and he has to time it damn near perfectly for it not to be dodgable. Not to mention if he is using his Tornado then that means he isnt right next to you as if he was he would just E-Q.

Heko The Man6 votes

{quoted}

you will be stationary for a fraction of a second, and he has a windup time to cast it so its telegraphed and he has to time it damn near perfectly for it not to be dodgable. Not to mention if he is using his Tornado then that means he isnt right next to you as if he was he would just E-Q.

even if u dodge it he'll just do it again, and again, and again ix some mana reliant champ misses his spells he'll go oom u obviously don't get the point

SuicidePlank6 votes

{quoted}

you will be stationary for a fraction of a second, and he has a windup time to cast it so its telegraphed and he has to time it damn near perfectly for it not to be dodgable. Not to mention if he is using his Tornado then that means he isnt right next to you as if he was he would just E-Q.

I don't mean his fucking Nado, I mean his melee Q. You can't dodge that as melee. Listen dude.

DaTrout772 votes

{quoted}

I don't mean his fucking Nado, I mean his melee Q. You can't dodge that as melee. Listen dude.

LOL well excuse me for misunderstanding, we were discussing poking. As for your problem, its simple. Dont walk melee to him without expecting him to use a short range ability for harass. Its kinda the same idea of dont walk in range of an adc without expecting to get an aa or two.

SuicidePlank3 votes

{quoted}

LOL well excuse me for misunderstanding, we were discussing poking. As for your problem, its simple. Dont walk melee to him without expecting him to use a short range ability for harass. Its kinda the same idea of dont walk in range of an adc without expecting to get an aa or two.

Are you stupid? I want to farm as melee, I go to farm, Yasuo Qs me without me being able to dodge it.

DaTrout772 votes

{quoted}

Are you stupid? I want to farm as melee, I go to farm, Yasuo Qs me without me being able to dodge it.

Ok does your champ not have abilities? Does your champ have a ranged ability you can use to either farm or trade dmg back? Does your champ have any sort of tankiness or sustain mechanic?

Judging from your match history you only play GP so you have both a sustain ability (W) a ranged poke used for either trading or farming (Q) (E). all that aside if the yasuo is simply sitting on the minions waiting for you to walk up then that is free poke and gold for you as GP since you always are running klepto. Honestly your complaining about a brain dead yasuo just sitting on the minions letting you poke and farm all you want?

You are one strange cookie... :D

Paletongue3 votes

Looking up someone else's champions is deflecting from the problem we are discussing currently. I don't play Gangplank, but I'm still hear reading this discussion, where you're trying to personally attack another guy.

Are you gonna write a new post about someone's main every time a new person replies to your silly deflections?

DaTrout771 votes

{quoted}

Looking up someone else's champions is deflecting from the problem we are discussing currently. I don't play Gangplank, but I'm still hear reading this discussion, where you're trying to personally attack another guy.

Are you gonna write a new post about someone's main every time a new person replies to your silly deflections?

I dont see a problem with looking at someones champs, this can give insight on why they might have a particular view. Also this wasnt a personal attack in the slightest. Im surprised you even think i was "Personally attacking" him without calling him anything other than a "strange cookie" which isnt really an insult, but by me responding to him calling me stupid... Im sorry i dont understand PC culture.

Paletongue1 votes

Hi, thanks for the congenial response! I'll try to explain better.

This isn't about PC Culture or boards culture, its about the style of debate you are using. An earlier post said "Buddy, you main Gangplank.", which my apologies, I thought was you. Regardless, you followed up on his point where you zoomed in on a specific situation between Gangplank v Yasuo. Unfortunately this post isn't supposed to be about Gangpank at all, and only about how Yasuo can be difficult against melee tops as a whole. While you didn't start the deflection yourself (that was NemeBro), you did continue it, and thus continue the invalidation of his opinion simply because he mains Gangplank.

Also, I liked the strange cookie part

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

LOL well excuse me for misunderstanding, we were discussing poking. As for your problem, its simple. Dont walk melee to him without expecting him to use a short range ability for harass. Its kinda the same idea of dont walk in range of an adc without expecting to get an aa or two.

His issue isn’t poke. It’s poke that doesn’t have a real cost.

I’ll use a previous example being yasuo His poke comes from his q 1 and 2. It cost him a very low cooldown. That’s it.

Gangplank on the other hand, also poke with his q. It costs him a significantly longer cooldown. Costs him mana And if he wants any extra damage with it, it costs his a barrel charge.

DaTrout771 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q8hpwkqB,comment-id=00000000000000010000000100000001,timestamp=2019-05-21T18:46:05.586+0000)

His issue isn’t poke. It’s poke that doesn’t have a real cost.

I’ll use a previous example being yasuo His poke comes from his q 1 and 2. It cost him a very low cooldown. That’s it.

Gangplank on the other hand, also poke with his q. It costs him a significantly longer cooldown. Costs him mana And if he wants any extra damage with it, it costs his a barrel charge.

There are plenty of hidden costs that you are forgetting.

GP Q is a point and click ability with 200 more range than Yasuo's skill shot which can be predicted, dodged, or flashed. GP cd on Q is 5 seconds while yasuo's Q is 4 seconds until he gets attack speed. That along with GP getting extra Gold for last hitting or poking with Klepto. all that And also considering the items and mana regen GP still will struggle early game atleast in trading and killing but just farming and poking GP wins with the extra gold he gets.

The thigh guy3 votes

{quoted}

There are plenty of hidden costs that you are forgetting.

GP Q is a point and click ability with 200 more range than Yasuo's skill shot which can be predicted, dodged, or flashed. GP cd on Q is 5 seconds while yasuo's Q is 4 seconds until he gets attack speed. That along with GP getting extra Gold for last hitting or poking with Klepto. all that And also considering the items and mana regen GP still will struggle early game atleast in trading and killing but just farming and poking GP wins with the extra gold he gets.

Now your throwing in what if’s to the game.

We could account yasuo as having conquerer stacked as well, suddenly he is healing for a huge chunk as well.

Not to mention if we are talking extra gold. Gangplank will never equal yasuo in gold per stats due to yasuo gaining 2000 gold worth of stats for free.

Point being. Yasuo has a low cooldown poke tool, that when used correctly (when the enemy is getting a cs) cannot be dodged. And has zero cost.

Gangplank has a poke tool that can’t be dodged. But also has a longer cooldown and a mana cost

SuicidePlank2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q8hpwkqB,comment-id=0000000000000001000000010000000100000000,timestamp=2019-05-21T20:05:34.417+0000)

Now your throwing in what if’s to the game.

We could account yasuo as having conquerer stacked as well, suddenly he is healing for a huge chunk as well.

Not to mention if we are talking extra gold. Gangplank will never equal yasuo in gold per stats due to yasuo gaining 2000 gold worth of stats for free.

Point being. Yasuo has a low cooldown poke tool, that when used correctly (when the enemy is getting a cs) cannot be dodged. And has zero cost.

Gangplank has a poke tool that can’t be dodged. But also has a longer cooldown and a mana cost

Thanks for pointing it out for ppl who don't understand my post, who seem to be a lot. ^^ And not to mention Yasuo can delete GPs Q entirely.

NemeBro8 votes

{quoted}

No, he just needs to press Q. If you are Melee and want to farm you can't avoid it.

Buddy, you main Gangplank.

You have point and click poke from a longer range than Yasuo's that, get this, does literally the exact same damage (unless they crit, in which case Gangplank's does MORE), and if you can use your barrels well does even more damage and is even longer range. Yasuo's has a shorter cooldown, but he exposes himself far more and can actually, you know, miss it.

SuicidePlank12 votes

{quoted}

Buddy, you main Gangplank.

You have point and click poke from a longer range than Yasuo's that, get this, does literally the exact same damage (unless they crit, in which case Gangplank's does MORE), and if you can use your barrels well does even more damage and is even longer range. Yasuo's has a shorter cooldown, but he exposes himself far more and can actually, you know, miss it.

On a very high CD and shocker, it costs 60 Mana. Where is Yasuos mana cost?

(unless they crit, in which case Gangplank's does MORE),

And GP needs to invest MORE money into less Crit, yes.

and if you can use your barrels well does even more damage and is even longer range.

Everyone who plays ranged and has above 4 IQ can destory it, unless its a phantom barrel which is incredibly hard and risky to pull of.

Yasuo's has a shorter cooldown,

Like I can miss my barrels and have to wait 15 seconds with 45 CDR to get three back. How much CDR does Yasuo build?

but he exposes himself far more

And has a windwall that blocks everything, has two shields if he procs his Ult and insane healing. GP builds glass cannon to stay relevant and yes, he can escape one CC spell (that isn't a knock up, you know, like Yasuo Q), but he gets blown up incredibly easy.

Oh and did I mentioned Yasuo can deny GPs Q and thus deny his combos? Don't speak about GP if you don't have a clue, lmao.

Meteora7071 votes

phantom barrel which is incredibly hard and risky to pull of.

with as little as half an hour practice in practice tool you can land 100% of phantom barrels.

SuicidePlank2 votes

{quoted}

with as little as half an hour practice in practice tool you can land 100% of phantom barrels.

Ye, sure its easy in practice tool, but try pulling it of ingame, in fights or even in lane. The only GP Player I know who can do them 90% of the time is Tobias Fate, one of the best mechaniclly skilled GPs in the World. And btw half an hour for learning one combo is pretty hard, you do realize it?

Meteora7071 votes

try pulling it of ingame, in fights or even in lane.

I'm not really aware of whether you can do it outside of max Q range or not but if you can't then it's pretty simple everywhere

half an hour for learning one combo is pretty hard, you do realize it?

for sure, if the champion has like 50 of em, or like more than 2 of em.

Tobias Fate, one of the best mechaniclly skilled GPs in the World.

omegafuckinglul

SuicidePlank2 votes

{quoted}

I'm not really aware of whether you can do it outside of max Q range or not but if you can't then it's pretty simple everywhere

No, you can't, you have to place it exactly in that one frame where your gun clicks.

omegafuckinglul

Tobias is one of the best GPs in the world, but everything apart from his GP is shit, like game knowledge etc. Still pulled of getting into Masters in one week, GM in two. Ask almost everyone, who plays GP as one of their mains, or visit our subreddit, everyone will tell you the same.

Meteora7071 votes

No, you can't, you have to place it exactly in that one frame where your gun clicks.

yeah I figured, so basically you just do the thing where you're standing very slightly out of Q range when you press Q on the barrel so you get it every time.

Still pulled of getting into Masters in one week, GM in two.

when the fuck has tobias ever been GM? also wasn't he only masters when gp was literally the most broken champion in the game?

calling him one of the best gangplanks is hilarious though, watching him vs a challenger gp player from korea is like night and day.

SuicidePlank2 votes

{quoted}

yeah I figured, so basically you just do the thing where you're standing very slightly out of Q range when you press Q on the barrel so you get it every time.

Because nothing will destroy your Keg when its close to an enemy (for example ranged champs) or interrupt you in walking there. Just stop talking, you have obviously no clue about anything you talk about, lmao.

when the fuck has tobias ever been GM?

  1. April.

https://twitter.com/Tobias_Fate/status/1115997418837950465

also wasn't he only masters when gp was literally the most broken champion in the game?

He was Challenger with him and mastes last season when he played ofstream. Like he usually does, every season.

calling him one of the best gangplanks is hilarious though, watching him vs a challenger gp player from korea is like night and day.

In terms of knowledge yes, but mechanically he is one of the best GPs out there, which was my point. Also when did you ever watch Tobias Stream? If you missed him hitting GM, neither Master (and playing even on stream on it), it can't be to recent and I mean the last two years.

Moody P11 votes

leaves out Aatrox lol

D357R0Y3R9 votes

he left out a lot of champs just to complain about the champs he hates

Meanwhile mages for the majority of them pokes you while never ending out of mana

fun

Catffeine2 votes

Xerath "Hey, is mana a resource that's implemented to discourage players from carelessly spamming their abilities and completely preventing the enemy from doing anything? Let's give this guy a passive that makes his resource completely redundant!"

Eonslegacy4 votes

No. They actually gave him that passive to make is laning phase have interaction. He has such high range and wave clear that he cant be interacted with, so riot made his spells cost 120 mana so he would oom in a few casts and the massive mana cost couldn't be negated with flat mana or mana regin. He has to auto minions or players (autoing just minions still ooms him hard early). If they removed his passive he couldn't lane at all, and if he could via mana cost reductions, you'd never see him on your screen just hitboxes and explosions. then they made mana flowband, and That percentage mana regin from total invalidated his costs... .

DaTrout779 votes

while there are many exceptions to this im mainly focusing on energy users. While some energy users do have poke, its not exactly equal to lets say a mages poke. For example most mages either do more dmg comparing 1 ability for another, or they have better "utility" (using this fairly loosely to cover cc,aoe, and range) Almost all energy users abilities are either meant to be used in close range or are purely for burst. Zed for example who probably has the most range misses out on alot of dmg unless he is able to proc electrocute or hits them directly instead of through minions. With his poke combo (W-E-Q) he only has enough energy to press E once more once its off cd then thats it, he is completely out of energy until it regens. (though he does get refunded energy if it hits multiple people) While mages can do their full combo many times before they run out of mana, and some can even do the same combo multiple times before zed gets his energy back such as ryze, and cass. There are many other examples on why some champs use energy over mana, im just naming a few of the pros and cons of both sides.

Energy users typically dont do well at all in poke especially in the late game as most are designed to be assassins. Late game mages such as Xerath, Vel, and Brand can do full combos non stop until they run out of mana depending on their items. Mana is by design more suited for late game while energy is more suited for either early game or burst.

I dont expect you to be convinced by this or anything anyone says. Im just pointing out there are two sides to every coin. It might just help to look at both sides before complaining about one.

Also by your logic mana users shouldnt be able to burst. :D

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