Can we please break the tank stranglehold on the support role?

SpecterVonBaren··3 votes·1,078 views

For two years the tank and/or all in supports have been shoving out the more traditional utility/mage supports from bot lane. When I first started playing LoL, utility sups were still seen bot, both in solo que and pro play but over time they have become less and less used. Now unless a champ is clearly broken Soraka (Note, I say broken, not OP) and/or specifically counters the tanky all in sups Janna they don't see pro play and only those that are dedicated to paying a utility support will play them in solo que.

Some think it is because the tanky engage is more rewarding or fun, but them being more rewarding is a symptom of the issue and not the cause. By looking at when this stranglehold began to happen, I have concluded that the issue is that the dynamic of the utility supports vs the tanky engage supports has been thrown out of balance. The dynamic used to be that a utility sup could gain dominance in lane if they poked their enemy down enough that going all in on them was risky, this was their way to gain safety from them. Meanwhile, the tanky sups were meant to avoid this poke and/or try to make a successful all in before they got poked too much.

Because of this, I believe the reason things have gone out of wack was the introduction of the item 3302 which took away the utility support strength against all in sups, their poke. Think abut it, both of the other items merely strengthen a playstyle, item 3303 gives more AP and damage on hit for pokey supports, item 3301 gives sustain and safety for passive supports and item 3302.... gives sustain for a class of champs that aren't supposed to have that.

This is what I believe is causing this issue, pokey sups can't make their damage stick because tank supports have a source of sustain that they aren't supposed to have. Because Relic Shield buffers them to their weakness, they can sustain an enemy utility sups poke and then go all in once they've used up their mana. Utility supports have to put themselves in risk of danger in order to poke the enemy tanks, they have to risk being all inned, but the reward for that risk is for them to heal themselves and their ADC with the Relic Shield passive.

Utility supports are the ones that are supposed to give healing, shields and buffs, that's supposed to be their strength, but Relic Shield makes it so the utility they bring in laning phase isn't worth it because they are squishy. Why pick a utility support that can be killed by one all in when you can get a tanky all in support that is durable and can get kills?

I think Riot needs to change Relic Shield, what it SHOULD do is give something like a temporary damage boost when the tribute passive is proc'd, because that strengthens the nature of the all in tanky sups and puts it in line with the other support items instead of it being as it is now where it skews the balance of tanky engage supports and utillity mage supports.

21 Comments

theArtifacts3 votes

To whom are you specifically referring.. I often see Sona Lulu Blitzcrank Nami Zyra

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Yes, you often see them, (Blitz isn't a utility sup, he's also a tanky engage support, he just brings the enemy to you instead of going to them), and how often do you see them in comparison to tanky engage supports? What about in solo que and competitive? Do you disagree that there is a imbalance between the two type of supports? Do you disagree with my belief that Relic Shield gives tanky engage supports something they aren't supposed to have?

theArtifacts1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, you often see them, (Blitz isn't a utility sup, he's also a tanky engage support, he just brings the enemy to you instead of going to them), and how often do you see them in comparison to tanky engage supports? What about in solo que and competitive? Do you disagree that there is a imbalance between the two type of supports? Do you disagree with my belief that Relic Shield gives tanky engage supports something they aren't supposed to have?

Can you define "Utility" ?

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Utility as in, a support that is there mainly to enable an ally to accomplish something as apposed to themselves and that is not meant to take damage. Leona, on the opposite side for instance, is meant to engage, tank damage and set up a kill, she is not focused on healing or buffing or peeling, she's about setting up a kill and taking punishment. This does not mean she can't peel, but it is not her main aim like a Sona who gives movespeed, attack damage, and heals.

theArtifacts2 votes

{quoted}

Utility as in, a support that is there mainly to enable an ally to accomplish something as apposed to themselves and that is not meant to take damage. Leona, on the opposite side for instance, is meant to engage, tank damage and set up a kill, she is not focused on healing or buffing or peeling, she's about setting up a kill and taking punishment. This does not mean she can't peel, but it is not her main aim like a Sona who gives movespeed, attack damage, and heals.

So still... Lulu, Sona, Raka, Janna, Nami, Bard (not so squish.. but still)

Not sure what point you're trying to make but I see all of these regularly.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

So you refuse to reply to any of my questions, okay then.

theArtifacts2 votes

{quoted}

So you refuse to reply to any of my questions, okay then.

Yes, you often see them, (Blitz isn't a utility sup, he's also a tanky engage support, he just brings the enemy to you instead of going to them), and how often do you see them in comparison to tanky engage supports? What about in solo que and competitive? Do you disagree that there is a imbalance between the two type of supports? Do you disagree with my belief that Relic Shield gives tanky engage supports something they aren't supposed to have?

Those questions?

I see them every single day, Ranked Dynamic Queue, I do disagree that there is an imbalance, Relic gives tanky supports an item that actually helps them rather than an item that is next to useless to upgrade as a tank support.

OurLestrade2 votes

Support tank main Utility supports still work perfectly fine. Hell, half of them outright counter tank supports unless you're thick.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Could you go into further detail and then explain to me why someone should take a utility support over a tank support, EXCEPT for the supports that specifically counter all in engage, such as Morgana and Janna.

RISE Shlack1232 votes

I main the support role, meaning I play the class of support our team needs most. Lately, I've been playing mostly Morgana because she is as close as a direct counter to the tanky-engage support class as there is.

AP Supports aren't out of meta - if you can get good with them, you can dominate a tanky support lane.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

Morgana is like Janna, she specifically counters all in engage sups. Now, what about Relic Shield? Do you disagree that it gives tanky supports access to utility that they are not supposed to have?

Dryditch2 votes

Relic shield provides Tanky supports with a very nice bit of healing in lane that also allows them to maximize gold efficiency. If you removed it, all the tank supports would go to Ancient Coin. Guess what coin has as part of its passive! HEALING on every minion that dies near you. It's a better regen item than is shield, and its active is better for engage comps.

Tank supports are common because teams need tanks, and as of right now, top lane is a bruiser party, Jungle is home to mostly assassins and/or bursty champs, Mid is, as always, the realm of assassins and magi, and adcs cannot be expected to build tank.

It's not hard to understand.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

When did I say that we should remove Relic Shield? Did you read my opening post? I suggested we could make it so procing the passive could give bonus damage for a short time, encouraging a tanky engage support to proc it when they see an opening or to force a fight after procing it so that they can better succeed at their all in. My issue is with Relic Shield making up for a deficiency instead of enhancing a strength

And you are incorrect about the jungle and top lane. We are seeing several tanks played top like Malphite and Nautilus and have been seeing tanks played in the jungle like Gragas. Yes, they are not the most favored, but that is in part because itemization is allowing champions that are supposed to build damage and be squishy to be able to still deal good damage while building durability items.

Further, support should not be expected to always have to be the tank, people should have to decide whether they should take a tank to this or that position, encouraging things to always be "I don't want to think about changing my pick, just bully the support into picking a tank" is wrong. Choosing a tank support should be more than just "Because no one else will pick a tank".

Dryditch2 votes

Apologies, I misread the initial post. I still think removing that functionality from Relic Shield would mean most of the tank supports gravitate towards Ancient Coin instead. it frees them up from building Righteous Glory later, and still gives a fair bit of sustain.

You're making the classic mistake of conflating LCS with SoloQueue or Dynamic Queue.

Top lane: http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Top

6 of the top 10 top laners are bruisers, and the others can easily be built as such.

Here's Jungle: http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Jungle

Again, 6 of the 10 top played junglers are squishy assassins who CAN build tanky, but are still meant to be squishy, or at best, bruiser-y.

The last place left for a true tank is in support, unless you have tanks who inherently do plenty of base damage.

As a former support main, CC tanks fit my playstyle better, because they allow me to more effectively peel for my ADC while locking down the enemy carry, so they can get focused in turn. In an ideal world, Riot would shift the meta so tanks could be viable in top lane again (instead of bruisers who lifesteal like my recent main, Volibear), and there would be a choice left to the support. Too bad this world isn't the ideal one. (Unless you're a theodicist and believe this is the best of all possible worlds.)

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Nautilus, Darius, Malphite, Poppy, Nasus, Renekton, Garen and Shen build tank items, that's 8 champions that build durability and can initiate a fight. Some of them might build a damage item during lanning phase but they build for survivability and can initiate a fight and take a hit

7 of those junglers are either known to build tanky or build tank after two damage items, Gragas, Lee Sin, Shyvana, Jarvan, Vi, and Elise. Even in the case that one of them builds a lot of damage, for instance, Vi, they can still initiate a fight and be able to take some punishment.

Your examples are not good. The point of having a tanky engage support is for engage, initiation while being able to take a hit while doing so. Most of the examples you gave can and do fulfill that role.

This isn't a world, this is a game. Imagine this, what if tanky engage sups didn't have the sustain from Relic Shield? You say they'd just go to Coin, even if Relic Shield gave some kind of new bonus for procing its passive but Coin gives no health meaning it is still better than Relic Shield from a balance standpoint because it doesn't give you sustain AND durability.

Abyssphere2 votes

{quoted}

I main the support role, meaning I play the class of support our team needs most. Lately, I've been playing mostly Morgana because she is as close as a direct counter to the tanky-engage support class as there is.

AP Supports aren't out of meta - if you can get good with them, you can dominate a tanky support lane.

Your post contradicts itself. You say you play Morgana (solely) because she's a counter to tanks and then say AP supports are meta. If you can only justify using a mage if they specifically counter tanks then that outright says that mage supports aren't meta. They are either anti-meta (Morgana, Janna) or just completely irrelevant.

RISE Shlack1232 votes

How does my post contradict itself? I simply put down what I've been able to be successful with in this current meta. Anti-meta is a counter to the meta. Which thus makes them meta by being a direct counter to the meta. You're confused, it appears.

Athenes Lulu2 votes

Janna says hi.

On all seriousness, it's more of players wanting to look flashy and make a difference, while the backliners do just as much.

Linna Excel1 votes

Rework Leona so she can lane and jungle a little more easily?

Moesnd1 votes

Brand, annie, velkoz are all good

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Those are mages that are taken bot. While they are squishy, they are taken bot for their kill pressure not for their utility to a carry.

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