Daily reminder that Lux, Ziggs, etc., should have their maximum mana looked at.

darkdill··76 votes·5,670 views

Mana regen changes for S5 screwed up these Champions badly. The new Mana Font (Chalice passive) doesn't favor them because for it to give a meaningful amount of mana regen, you need at least 1500 maximum mana. That means getting a mana capacity item, which several mages and supports cannot accommodate into their kits without screwing themselves on some other front (i.e. getting a Zhonya's or a major support item).

Maximum Mana at level 18

Lux : 1184 Ziggs : 1184 Brand : 1091 Nami : 1108 Galio : 1169 Lulu : 1227 Orianna : 1184 Syndra : 1184

As you can see, several of these mages have a mana capacity problem. SOME can compensate with a Tear of the Goddess, but not all of them (i.e. Lux, Brand, Syndra) without gimping themselves in their mid-game. But at the same time, I know lots of people (Riot included) will have objections toward lowering their mana costs, since that will make their mid-game less taxing and thus unnecessarily stronger.

My thought is that the maximum mana at level 18 should be increased on some of these Champions. Why? Because the new Mana Font (Chalice) passive works off your missing mana, which in turn relies on how much maximum mana you have. If your maximum mana is innately higher, you get more regen out of a Grail or Mikael, making them more worth the investment. And since this change would only affect the late/end-game period, it will not affect the mid-game significantly (if at all).

"Why bother? Mana isn't supposed to EVER be meaningless."

I will concede that point, but I am frequently finding that in late-game scenarios, Champions who used to be able to harass with their spells like Lux or Ziggs cannot do that anymore due to burnouts. This simply makes them a lot less fun to play, as they cannot sustain themselves through siege scenarios without a Blue Buff (which was also nerfed in duration). Besides mana, those Champions already have suitable counterplay to their kits: high mobility defeats long-ranged skill shots.

Worst of all, Champions like Lux, Ziggs, etc., cannot adequately deal with those mana burnouts even with double Morellonomicon builds. Taking mana regeneration per level Seals also doesn't help, as that only gives you 11 per 5 at level 18, which isn't nearly strong enough. Bottom line, they are stuck with the mana problems for the entire game, and that completely sucks. It's like getting hit by actual Mana Burn effects continuously (even though Riot took that out because it was toxic).

I am not asking for those mana burnouts to completely go away. I am asking that they not be as frequent or as nasty as they presently are.

TL;DR - Increase the maximum mana of select mage Champions at level 18. This will lessen their late-game mana burnouts.

73 Comments

Adolf Ghostler8 votes

Daily reminder that daily reminders aren't daily reminders if they aren't daily.

Slushi Simcambi1 votes

Well Maybe they are daily starting... now!

FoggyPaws4 votes

TFW I've never once had a problem playing as any of those champions. 40% CDR, Infinite Mana, 30 Flat Magic Penetration and overtime burn so good. item 3174 item 3165 item 3020 item 3151 item 3089 6th item is situational item 3040 item 3116 item 3027 or item 3157 depending on my mood.

The Penetrations make up for the lack of Raw AP pretty well, especially when dealing with squishier targets, and the overtime burn, along with grevious wounds from morello helps deal with tanker, or lifestealing targets.

I still knock out the squishy targets in no time flat and the mana-regen/cdr means I don't really need to ever leave the fight, I can keep helping my team without fear of running OOM until things calm down enough for me to go buy goodies.

Boodini3 votes

{quoted}

TFW I've never once had a problem playing as any of those champions. 40% CDR, Infinite Mana, 30 Flat Magic Penetration and overtime burn so good. item 3174 item 3165 item 3020 item 3151 item 3089 6th item is situational item 3040 item 3116 item 3027 or item 3157 depending on my mood.

The Penetrations make up for the lack of Raw AP pretty well, especially when dealing with squishier targets, and the overtime burn, along with grevious wounds from morello helps deal with tanker, or lifestealing targets.

I still knock out the squishy targets in no time flat and the mana-regen/cdr means I don't really need to ever leave the fight, I can keep helping my team without fear of running OOM until things calm down enough for me to go buy goodies.

probably because you use clarity

FoggyPaws2 votes

I do often, though many times I don't need it. I use it either offensively or defensively. It's always funny to see the enemy zed think I'm OOM then suddenly I've got nearly half of my mana back and I've bursted his face into nothing.

My favorite part is when I'm playing Xerath and newbies are getting mad saying "Where the hell do you keep getting all that mana? You were just out!"

Z461 votes

I like playing Malzahar against Xerath. Equally safe farming, easy mana regen, and easy zoning for when Xerath has to proc his passive, all for the cost of one sudden outbreak of terminal Space AIDS.

At the same time, if I need to burst him down or roam more, I'll take Talon. Funnier and faster than Zed.

FoggyPaws1 votes

I don't usually need to proc my passive, mana regen items tend to take care of it so long as I'm not using my abilities the moment they are off cooldown.

9/10 times I'm using my mana to poke the enemy out of lane, sneaking in farm when I can, then when they leave I farm safe.

If they don't leave I kill them with my ult when I hit 6. Plenty of games I can last in lane with plenty of mana, until level 6.

Z461 votes

item 3040 item 3165 item 3157 item 3023 item 3116 item 3020.

Of course, I'd swap Morellonomicon for an Unholy Grail if I desperately need the MR, and Twin Shadows can be swapped out for a Deathcap or Void Staff (Twin Shadows just makes it easier to land stuff from long range and get vision), but Lux shouldn't be in a position to need actual defensive stats for most of the match, contrary to what her passive implies. If she's in that position, Zhonya's Hourglass will normally do the trick.

Burungeru4 votes

I consider myself a Lux main, and I'm convinced Lux is just going to be ignored whenever it comes to mana costs. The morello's nerf is what killed me, because I actually preferred that over Athene's Grail even though both work well on her, but after they both got nerfed she's slowly running out of mana options. Not only is her base mana awful, but her mana costs are clearly ones that came from S1 type champions. Plus, her health is awful too, which isn't too nice when she's forced to rely on her skills to make up for her lower health early on.

darkdill5 votes

They aren't even giving her a texture rebalance at this point.

item 3070 Lux item 3070

Uiru4 votes

Energy champions running wild

Riot fucks mages (again)

Riot wonders why their balance team gets shit on so often ~Uiru

Meep Man4 votes

Considering Lux's W costs 130 mana at Level 5 and her Q costs 90 mana at Level 5, she is pretty bad at running out of mana for multiple problems. Same for Ziggs, since his cool downs are a lot lower and his spells costs only about 5-10 less.

SanKakU3 votes

I disagree. The cooldowns on Lux's abilities are so harsh, you cannot afford to spam your abilities. The only time she gets a mana burnout is in the late game, and by then it's just as well because someone has to recall and fight off top or bottom anyway, and it might as well be her.

darkdill7 votes

I take it you feel that using abilities to farm is now wrong, right?

SanKakU3 votes

{quoted}

I take it you feel that using abilities to farm is now wrong, right?

Unless you're intentionally pushing, yes.

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q5ZpsaxY,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-02-09T00:04:20.905+0000)

From OP:

I think that's his point -- it fixes her burnout late-game. Okay, someone has to recall and fight top or bottom anyway, why not let the team choose who they can most afford to spare, rather than Lux being forced to?

If I bought the chalice it would probably solve the burnout problem. I don't see how it wouldn't. If you're missing 500 mana, you will regenerate +10 mana per five, the same amount that +50 percent is, since at level 18 she regenerates 20 mana per five. I generally don't have mana problems after building Morellonomicon on most champions, Lux is no exception. Sometimes I get away with not even getting mana regeneration on her. Morellonomicon(+100 percent) would give her a steady 40(this includes her base) mana regen per five, while the chalice gives her 30+ which can easily be 40 or more when she's missing 500 mana or more. 700 mana seems like way more than enough to get your spells off for a team fight, I really don't get what the problem is.

TWO MORELLONOMICONS? that's 60 mana regen per 5. How are you spending more than 720 in a minute, every minute? If you cast your wand half a dozen times, sure, you're halfway to 720, then what? Your ultimate once puts you at 460, the slow 2-3 times is 260-390 added on, for a cost 850 + 90( times 1 for however many times you throw out your ensnare). Yeah, that's a lot of spell casting, but you just got 720 of it back. How many fights last over 1 minute, anyway?

darkdill3 votes

Maybe said Lux was using a huge number of spammed spells to harass or siege the enemy before the fight? And FYI, Lux's E costs 130 mana on a 6 second cooldown (with 40% CDR), while her Q is 90 mana on 6.6 second CD. That's a LOT burned each rotation, and way more than what a double Morello or Morello/Grail combo can handle at the moment.

SanKakU2 votes

{quoted}

Maybe said Lux was using a huge number of spammed spells to harass or siege the enemy before the fight? And FYI, Lux's E costs 130 mana on a 6 second cooldown (with 40% CDR), while her Q is 90 mana on 6.6 second CD. That's a LOT burned each rotation, and way more than what a double Morello or Morello/Grail combo can handle at the moment.

If you throw those spells every time they come off cooldown, you're going to miss chances to make more of an impact. Enemy players will move in on you while your spells are on cooldown and you'll be in trouble. Just because you can drain your mana, doesn't mean it's beneficial to do so. Even if you had infinite mana and wanted to cast your abilities every time they came off cooldown, that would just play into your opponents' hands.

darkdill4 votes

Either way, it takes more than 10 seconds for that double Morello build to give you enough mana for one Lucent Singularity, and a full 10 seconds if you have a Morello/Grail combo at 0 mana.

Makes the CDR not feel worth it at that stage.

Kitten of Evil13 votes

From OP:

And since this change would only affect the late/end-game period, it will not affect the mid-game significantly (if at all).

I think that's his point -- it fixes her burnout late-game. Okay, someone has to recall and fight top or bottom anyway, why not let the team choose who they can most afford to spare, rather than Lux being forced to?

darkdill6 votes

Exactly. Lux's late-game burnouts at this time are obnoxious.

Llanite3 votes

I disagree. Against artillery mages, the only 'counterplay' is to keep dodging their spells, waiting for they to run low on mana. Now assume that they never go oom, how do you even fight? Not everyone is Zed who has 2 gap closer.

Arveanor2 votes

In the lategame, an artillery mage is likely not on his own, and if he is, just flank him and cash in on your free gold.

If they are with their team, then hopefully your team is grouped, and hopefully has decent engage and can potentially get onto this particular mage. But if your team comp is completely lacking in engage, you have to expect to have a tough time dealing with siege/poke, and the siege/poke champs shouldn't be overly nerfed for doing well in perfect scenarios.

Like, if you don't have cc and peel, you are probably going to have a really rough time around assassins, and no frontline will probably result in getting dunked by heavy engage.

Llanite3 votes

Guess you weren't around in S2 when Zigg/Lux/Nid completely stopped a teamfight from happening.

Arveanor1 votes

How strong they were at another time is completely, in every way, irrelevant to discussing if they are currently too weak.

Llanite2 votes

They have decent win rate at plat/diamond, certainly not top 10, but 'too weak' is an overstatement. They could use some buffs, but definitely not in sustain.

AetherKingdom3 votes

I play a bit of Orianna on my main. Orianna does have mana problems, I agree. Is that necessarily a bad thing? No. I should be gated by mana. I shouldn't be able to say "Hey, this ability just came off CD, better use it again for no consequences!" I should have to make meaningful decisions with my mana and cooldowns. inb4 Zed. inb4 people don't understand how to play against zed. inb4 i'm falsely accused of being a zed main.

darkdill2 votes

Should you be gated so hard at level 18? I don't think so. Mid-game, sure, but not super-late game.

Silents4292 votes

They are all fine, I haven't had any issues with Mana on Lux, people who have mained mid laners need to learn about conserving mana and not just spamming shit and missing most of the time.

I am glad we don't have items anymore that make you forget you even have mana, it was horrible balance.

Copelando3 votes

Zed can spam abilities and do much more damage than mana using mid laners. That's a problem.

Silents4292 votes

Zed is one champion.

Copelando2 votes

It's a champion Riot refuses to touch

Silents4292 votes

Okay let me explain this for you.

Zed. Is. One. Champion.

Yes he is a pain right now, but he is ONE champion.

Copelando1 votes

The only reason he is a pain is because of the mana regen nerfs to nearly every mana using mid laner.

Silents4291 votes

Oh, Believe me I said that too, but I got downvoted to oblivion if I thought otherwise.

Just like when I say mana is fine and people need to actually learn to aim now, and I get downvoted all the same.

darkdill2 votes

Other examples can easily be listed: Katarina Yasuo Akali

Silents4291 votes

Kats getting reworked. Even still her wave clear isn't great and requires her physically getting into poking range.

Yasuo isn't much better.

Akalis ain't that great either.

Naming a few champions doesn't make a difference.

darkdill1 votes

Kat's rework was recalled. They found it wasn't what they wanted, AFAIK.

Silents4291 votes

No the idea posted originally was canceled they are still going to rework her kit.

Qsario1 votes

I never buy chalice any more unless I need a crucible desperately for some reason. AA+Morello seems to be just about enough regen.

darkdill2 votes

So you don't get 40% CDR?

Champion Skin2 votes

You could get CDR runes + masteries or Lucidity/CDR boots

youngjake931 votes

I play Ziggs with Tear, Chalice and ROA all in the same build. It's not as horrible as you'd think since they all give heaps of other stats and you never ever go OOM.

darkdill3 votes

Rushing those items tends to screw over your mid-game damage compared to a Deathcap.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

since when is nami a mage? if you are playing Nami as a mage you are doing it horribly wrong

darkdill2 votes

Nami still suffers the same problem and can be built with plenty of AP. Her W is 130 mana at level 5, which is rather painful for her.

Ark Angel HFB2 votes

Nami doesn't need to cast spells?

shit man your adc nami must be boss.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ark Angel HFB,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q5ZpsaxY,comment-id=001b0001,timestamp=2015-02-10T11:08:12.023+0000)

Nami doesn't need to cast spells?

shit man your adc nami must be boss.

she uses mana and i have no issues using her skills with ONE mana regen item. Maybe you shouldn't go spam happy with her spells and wonder why you have no mana to use her spells. Get her an Athenes or an Morellonomicon and learn to not use her spells the instant they go off CD and watch as she rarely runs out of mana

darkdill1 votes

So you don't spam heals in long team fights? Your teammates must die a lot as a result.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

So you don't spam heals in long team fights? Your teammates must die a lot as a result.

when it comes down to that then you will have the exact same result whether you have 5000 mana or not. Her heal has a hefty CD even with 40% CDR

darkdill1 votes

Umm, no. Considering Nami is also spamming her other spells, her mana will dry up after just a few rotations.

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