adc's own the game an the only item that helps literaly wrecks you vs anyhing else
i think that thornmail should be easier to obtain or put a less strain on your tankyness vs other things like spellcast
we already have items which grant you both more power and are easier to build, looking at the fact that this item is a solution to adc dominance we shouldnt feel punished for getting it unless it counters half of enemy team
Kuroi863 votesExcept Thornmail is meant to be a specific item to counter a specific entity. If you want a more Jack-of-all-armor, then Randuins is more your speed, heck Sunfire is closer to what you want.
Knight SoIaire 1 votesno i dont want thornmail to be a better item
i want thornmail to be more easily accesible
Kuroi861 votesI don't know it if could possibly get any easier to access. Two cloth armors, upgrade one to chain vest, get your gold and voila!
Knight SoIaire 1 votesand cry because bruisers cast spells while mages bombard you with magic damage
what i mean by accesibility is being able to pick that item and not feeling punished by making that decision
Kuroi861 votesBruisers deal physical damage, armor reduces it.
If you're wanting something to feel you counter bruisers and mages, then thornmail isn't the item for you.
Knight SoIaire 1 votesdont forget most of them carrying arpen in their kits on top of the fact that top lane is an ap lane nowadays
what i mean is to adjust the item without changing its purpose so that you wont feel so rekt by opening yourself to bruisers and ap's
most probably such a solution would be to reduce the armor and the cost of the item so that you can quickly follow up with actual tankyness on it
Kuroi861 votes
Not even a third of fighters have arpen or reduction in their kit, these are all that have any. Again, for mages and bruisers/fighters, thornmail isn't the item for you. Thornmail is for AA based champs, which most bruisers aren't. You're better off with Sunfire Cape or Randuins omen against bruisers. Against mages you're better off with Spirit Visage or Banshee's Veil.
And I don't care what world you're from, 100 armor is friggen tanky.
Rebonack2 votesWhat we need is a new item that builds out of Cloth and a Ruby.
Then combine that with Chainmail to make Thorn.
There was once a Cloth+Ruby item, ages ago. I'll always have a special place in my heart for it.
AranciaMechanics1 votesWhat we need is a new item that builds out of Cloth and a Ruby.
Then combine that with Chainmail to make Thorn.
There was once a Cloth+Ruby item, ages ago. I'll always have a special place in my heart for it.
RIP HoG... thy will be missed.
t3hcollective1 votesWhat we need is a new item that builds out of Cloth and a Ruby.
Then combine that with Chainmail to make Thorn.
There was once a Cloth+Ruby item, ages ago. I'll always have a special place in my heart for it.
A golden place?
But on topic, make thornmail apply grievous wounds. This would help with the lifesteal tank bullshit going on with the adc role. You could also make it like a panth passive. Every x amount of AA it receives it would then block one.
Grimspeake1 votesmake thornmail more like randuins, i want some hp on it!
Ale non è male1 votesmake thornmail more like randuins, i want some hp on it!
Wut? You would completely defy Thronmail purpose, genius. If thornmail gets health, then no other item in the game remains to counter BoTRK
Rebonack1 votes[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q4IfTpao,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-01-08T13:00:54.943+0000)
Wut? You would completely defy Thronmail purpose, genius. If thornmail gets health, then no other item in the game remains to counter BoTRK
Assuming the BotRK user has an ounce of sense and buys Last Whisper there already isn't any item to counter it. Whisper/BotRK counters any possible combination of defensive stats, barring attack speed slows and untyped damage reduction. Adding 200-250 HP to Thorn would drastically increase the EHP boost it offers. Making a new Cloth/Ruby item and adding that to the combine in place of Cloth would make its recipe cost a little less obnoxious, too.
Ale non è male1 votesAssuming the BotRK user has an ounce of sense and buys Last Whisper there already isn't any item to counter it. Whisper/BotRK counters any possible combination of defensive stats, barring attack speed slows and untyped damage reduction. Adding 200-250 HP to Thorn would drastically increase the EHP boost it offers. Making a new Cloth/Ruby item and adding that to the combine in place of Cloth would make its recipe cost a little less obnoxious, too.
Well, no Botrk + LW give a measly 65 AD. Given that you should buy boots, an atk speed item, and you should also likely get some kind of defensive item as 6th item, your abilities will deal very little damage to enemy, so you will always forced to be in a position of danger (AA range) BoTRk + LW is something that Vayne + very few others can afford without seeing their damage drop to very low levels
Leti the Yeti1 votesas defensive items go, imo.. thorn mail is pretty cheap builds out of chain mail so when shit hits the fans, I can quickly buy that thing
whats so difficult to obtain about it? lower the price?
Knight SoIaire 1 votesyea lowering the price seems logical
despite it being a cheap item 2300 gold isnt something that just floats in the air also for a passive which everyone wants i think that they could substract some armor from it to lower that price (armor without hp isnt giving you any actual tankyness anyway)
adc is the king of the game and thornmail is anti adc only item, so taking it means that you are kinda hurt vs other guys since you dont have any hp on it (and they are dancing in any way possible for their adc to work) and i dont think that there shoould be any hp on thornmail, it would become op with even a small amount
Ale non è male1 votesIt costs less than his counterpart he fights against, namely BoTRK and/or the high damage item Thornmail is not anti adc only item, it's only against AA, and especially AA that work upon enemy health (again, BoTRK), because otherwise Randuin/FH offer better defenses
Knight SoIaire 1 votesIt costs less than his counterpart he fights against, namely BoTRK and/or the high damage item
yup ... but as you stated
Thornmail is not anti adc only item, it's only against AA
while botrk or other big damage item usualy is also able to refil your hp
the thing is that thornmail is prolly the most specialized item in the league, and looking at number ot threats we need to prepare for thornmail is uaualy not worth it unless enemy team has some additional champs it specificaly counters
Ale non è male1 votes[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q4IfTpao,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-08T15:01:46.637+0000)
yup ... but as you stated
while botrk or other big damage item usualy is also able to refil your hp
the thing is that thornmail is prolly the most specialized item in the league, and looking at number ot threats we need to prepare for thornmail is uaualy not worth it unless enemy team has some additional champs it specificaly counters
But its price is cheap. If you see that you need Thornmail to counter someone, you can easily pick it up, because of the price. And more in general Thronamil's armor still counter not only ADCs but all the AD damage dealers, even if not as good as the autoattackers I don't understand why you state that should be easier to botain when is frankly yet one of the easiest items to obtain among the items that give an high amount of a raw stat
Knight SoIaire 1 votesBut its price is cheap.
but runan is also cheap and it doesnt change the fact that you pay loads of money fot stats you dont need that much while you want a cheap pasive
the price is cheap but its still too high when you compare it to wonder items which make you overall tanky while sacrificing less item slots
all what you can say is that its cheap but for a little gold more you can gain loads of tankyness by buying randuins for instance
the way the game stands thornmail is able to compete with other items only when enemy team intentionaly picks champions that are countered by thornmail despite that low price
Ale non è male1 votesYour Runaan example is flat out wrong Runaan lacks 2 of the 3 stats the other AS items have, and the passive doesn't make up for it (if anything, it is kinda difficult to use it at full power). Runaan problem is that stat wise it is too disadvantaged, is is probably never the best item that you can pick for a specific purpose on a champion, that's why is unused. Add a strong MS bonus on Runaan and you'll see the situation change
Thornamil IS actually the superior item in certain circumstances, also superior to Randuin in those circumstances, and its price is kinda low, so the "is difficult to obtain" argumentation just make no sense. YOU chose to pick Thornmail when YOU needs it. If you don't need Thornmail, you go with the standard Randuin and is everything fine. Just like as ADC if you don't need BoTRK you just don't pick it and pick an item with high AD instead
Knight SoIaire 1 votesRunaan lacks 2 of the 3 stats the other AS items have, and the passive doesn't make up for it (if anything, it is kinda difficult to use it at full power)
thornmail lacks one stat other armor items have and thats why passive cant make up for it unless enemy team sets themselves up to be countered by that passive
is is probably never the best item that you can pick for a specific purpose on a champion, that's why is unused
just like thornmai is not used even if enemy adc is fed because other items fill loads of functions while thornmail only has one
YOU chose to pick Thornmail when YOU needs it
the basic situation when you need thornmail is when enemy adc is fed yet in loads of my games i didnt see one even when i oneshoted everyone with draven it simply gets outclassed even in its own field unless enemy team picks champs that make it effective
Ale non è male1 votes[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q4IfTpao,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-10T10:21:00.637+0000)
thornmail lacks one stat other armor items have and thats why passive cant make up for it unless enemy team sets themselves up to be countered by that passive
Frozen heart, Iceborn Gauntlet have mana instead of health too, and they are kinda viable. Thornmail purpose IS to be situational, and the low price vs the other main armor items shows it, I don't understand why you keep asking it to become a must-buy item for everyone
just like thornmai is not used even if enemy adc is fed because other items fill loads of functions while thornmail only has one
Depends on the ADC. If twitch or Vayne are fed you buy thornmail, if a more ability based ADC is fed you don't buy thornmail. And if the enemy doesn't suck, they are going to have an ADC and likely an APC fed, in a situation when enemy damage is balanced defensive items that provide health are preferred because they help againt both kind of damage, which is logic. People should itemize against what are the major damage damage threats against their team, when thornmail is the best choice you pick it, when it isn't you don't pick it
**the basic situation when you need thornmail is when enemy adc is fed ** yet in loads of my games i didnt see one even when i oneshoted everyone with draven it simply gets outclassed even in its own field unless enemy team picks champs that make it effective
No, it is not. If the enemy ADC isn't sucking hard in lane, he got to get his items and get technically fed. In most of the game the enemy is "fed". Still, there are a lot of different kind of marksmen and you got to itemize depending on what kind of marksmen they are. The amount of damage they dealt does not come only from AAs, but also from abilityies/enhancements The basic situation when you need Thornmail is indeed when there are multiple autoattackers, especially when they have items/abilities that work on your health and make building health less effective. Understand this and you'll understand why Thornmail is actually fine as it is
LongFur Fox1 votesThornmail imo is in a fine place right now. The fact that it only gives armor means that you cannot build it as a first item but after getting 1 or 2 other defensive items the stats on it becomes quite good. Even then though it is only a niche pick and far from an adc counter item that everyone buys. If they should make changes on it the i would like to see a life steal reduction when an opponent aa you. That way lifesteal does not counter it and the extra costs it gets would mean that you actually have to choose to buy into anti adc items instead of just having a 2300 item in an endgame build.
Knight SoIaire 1 votesThornmail imo is in a fine place right now. The fact that it only gives armor means that you cannot build it as a first item but after getting 1 or 2 other defensive items the stats on it
hence i dont agree with ppl who want that hp on it it would become the ultimete defense item
Even then though it is only a niche pick and far from an adc counter item that everyone buys.
yeah thats why i would like riot to think about making it less punishing for you to buy this item since its niche ... but still that niche is realy dominant right now
If they should make changes on it the i would like to see a life steal reduction when an opponent aa you. That way lifesteal does not counter it and the extra costs it gets would mean that you actually have to choose to buy into anti adc items instead of just having a 2300 item in an endgame build.
lifesteal cant counter it the way it stands since the damage it deals is calculated out of opponents ad while lifesteal is calculated out of hp you lose
ABlueQuaker1 votesIt's already really cheap.
Knight SoIaire 1 votesand what else does it offer that makes it stand up to randuins in a typical game nothing realy
all that this item is is a counter to enemies who intentionaly let themselves get countered by that item
if the only scenario in which item is usefull is when enemies allow it to be then item isnt worth it
ABlueQuaker1 votes100 Armor. Cheap Components. Cheap Combine cost. You quite literally get what you pay for.
Apart from anything, you usually only get it as a situational item anyway. It' there to boost your effective HP against Physical Damage dealers while not forcing you to completely forego offensive stats because of its passive.
Knight SoIaire 1 votesyou usually only get it as a situational item anyway
the item is so situational that it isnt even picked in situations where it should be
that doesnt seem right to me
It' there to boost your effective HP against Physical Damage dealers while not forcing you to completely forego offensive stats because of its passive
its to stop autoatackers from shredding you while healing themselves
Rebonack1 votesJust throwing it out there, assuming the ADC grabs Last Whisper you really really don't want pure armor. Against a foe with %Pen you want to shoot for 200 resist and 4800 HP, which is sort of possible to obtain, but not exactly easy. Tabi, Omen, and runes/masteries are really all the armor you're realistically going to want assuming the enemy team knows what Last Whisper does.
Knight SoIaire 1 votesbut at the same time giving thornmail an other stat would probably make it the master of tankyness items
so the most reasonable aproach to me is making thornmail more of an item that carries just the passive instead of cheap but wasted slot (in 90% of cases)