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manaless midlaners need a nerf NAOW

Knight SoIaire ··65 votes·4,812 views

no midlaner can keep up mana wise with their poke, vave clear, sustain and overall damage

mana was supposed to gate champs with innately strong skills strong skills (like panths spear, low cd good dmg good scaling, quite nice range, but it drains your mana fast) but you dropped the ball and everyone was manaless (after 5 mins into the game) now you fixed this and your ballance backfires (manaless champs before had similar performannce to mana gated ones since mana gated ones didnt run oom)

we should get a quick fix on that, because guys like akali (try poking her down now when you will go oom after maybe 2 combos) kata and zed start just outperforming other champions in most areas just because they dont pay for their skills and they can keep their play up for ages

also whats the deal with some of them katarina is manaless, being manaless means being gated by cooldowns, so why isnt she having any ? zed is an energy champion, energy is made for bursty guys or sustained guys who need to commit to keep up the spam(lee sin), whi is zed able to poke so well when its literaly free for him

105 Comments

Leaf of the lake30 votes

Manaless midlaners dominating the game?

#betternerfsona

PalPlays1 votes

LOL

Meep Man15 votes

Wrong, mana Middle Laners need a buff. Everything was overall balanced before the Mana Regeneration changes and now it is all wacky. We either need Mana Regen items to get a buff or mana to become less of a limiter early game.

FalconPawwwwnch1 votes

Lol? Mana should NEVER be completely removed, which is basically what happened in Season 4 because of how broken Athene's was. Mana champions should always have some sort of gating by mana. Manaless champions should never have been made with ranged farming skills and poke, that's what's broken

balbraaksel1 votes

{quoted}

Mana champions should always have some sort of gating by mana.

Not true, Riot had balanced them WITH the consideration of them not having a mana issue once they're past a certain level. Because that's balance.

Devourer10 votes

Or, you know, they could just buff mana regen.

The Soulforged7 votes

Kat's laning isn't that oppressive?

D1rtFarmer6 votes

something at riot is so offf... kat and akali used to have an adversary midlane.. but they took the side of manaless champs... look at my Diana.. like wtf.

Junkο1 votes

Diana was OP on release, just like Zyra, Elise and some other champions released around the same time. After people stopped buying them they simply gutted them into the ground.

h3gXrKmW8f6 votes

Nerf Yasuo more?

Yash Gautam4 votes

I agree with this. Maybe energy could regen 25% slower now. Katarina should have a much longer cooldown on her ult and shunpo. I think Lee Sin is fine, because he is a jungler, but could still regen 25% slower.

Junkο14 votes

I think Lee Sin is fine

RLY

Yash Gautam4 votes

Lee Sin falls off late game, plus he needs his energy in the jungle. He's fine.

Wirius4 votes

Deciding to build tank and still be incredibly effective in a teamfight late game is NOT "falling off".

WolfBV4 votes

Everybody 25% slower. But not Shen.

Raid Boss Morde4 votes

Mordekaiser doesn't need any more nerfs!

HeyIin4 votes

I dont' know if it's because I've played plenty of the manaless champions, but I have next to no issue killing a good chunk of them, outside of katarina or a fed as fuck akali that's been roaming since level 3, The best way to beat them is to know them. Play them, and understand their skillset, scaling and such. I feel confident enough that I can kill/beat any zed that's equal to my skill level more often than not. And it's usually with lissandra who can still kill/outplay them even when oom because of her unique passive.

Are the broken, no not really, some of their best moves have high cooldowns, zed shadow, akali shroud, so on and so forth. Are they strong as fuck yea, but they can still be shut down even in late game because all if not most of them have high SINGLE target dmg, stunlock or gang up on them and you should be okay.

Jacky Shen4 votes

Sorry, they're busy removing DFG so that zed can shit on all of the mid laners that used to have a chance of winning lane.

Narasimha3 votes

That literally has no correlation. Of every mid laner that beats Zed, none of them even try to rush DFG. Hell, for some of them, it wasn't even on the list.

Mikal Pikal1 votes

Exactly since against Zed they had to rush Zonyas even if DFG was the normal rush.

Narasimha1 votes

Since you somehow got the wrong idea, let me rephrase my statement.

Of almost every mid laner that beats zed, almost none of them built DFG anyway. It was usually a niche or a finishing item, not part of their usual set up. Such champions include but are not limited to: Viktor Swain Mordekaiser Malzahar Lissandra Kayle Galio Gragas Diana

Of these champions, the only one that MIGHT go for an early DFG is Malz. Everyone else builds a diferent route.

Salidfingers3 votes

Don't say no champion cannot keep up.

Sometimes you don't have to poke them in lane. Just farm until you are ready to kill them.

How I Versus:

Akali - Just farm until you can CC-Combo her (Annie) Zed - Poke through minions with your passive and if he ults you ult your self then go to town. (Lissandra) Katarina - Just farm until you can CC-Combo her (Annie)

Other champions that work.

Malz Fizz Azir Diana Talon Heimer Arhi

These are some of the basic counters, but not specifically for all though.

Knight SoIaire 7 votes

the core of your post says pick a counter that can win an all in without poking them down first, since then you can preserve your mana pool

everything has its counters but that doesnt mean that those who dont counter them should be rekt without a say

Salidfingers9 votes

So are you asking for paper to beat scissors.

What it comes down to is there different ways to win a lane.

1 - Early kill - Example: Riven 2 - Farming to out scale - Example: Orianna 3 - Waiting for Powerspike - Example: Lvl 9 Vlad 4 - Bullying - Example - Garen

Sometimes who you face will change the way you play as well, but if you are facing someone that can beat you all stages of the game then just maybe you should play another champion.

Why not pick a champion that counters your problem, because apparently they just did it to you.

Edit:

Sad thing i will get down voted like most of my post, but at least i know how to win lane.

RavenKouhai1 votes

{quoted}

So are you asking for paper to beat scissors.

So you're saying it's perfectly balanced for a champion to beat 99% of other champions no problem, as long as they have a few champs that can counter them?

It's terribly unfun to have to play a few specific champions to avoid getting curbstomped.

Salidfingers3 votes

Well didn't I just list more examples of champions in the previous reply that can counter so called OP champions.

Please don't over exaggerate with 99% when clearly there are much more counters that you are ignoring and what you are asking for is to make the champion that you are playing have no counters, because you cannot beat it. So lets make the counter against you useless so you can reign dominance.

Fun and Winning are 2 different things.

We all would like to have fun with what we enjoy, but you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Also do you think paper should win against scissors

Flemman1 votes

the thing is riot, nerf/rework multiple champ(cassio,sona,skarner) because they weren't fun to play against (they said it themselves).

So, when they start acting that way, leaving some champ who give exactly the same feeling as the one they change untouched, it's normal we end with the community feeling of double standard.

Salidfingers1 votes

Funny thing about those champions i didn't think they needed a rework/nerf.

Cassio is still a machine gun

Skarner still is kited and has no reward to stick to a target which is what they tried to accomplished i thought

Sona is still crap against blitz, AD Leona, and Nami can still out CC her without the need of her Ult. So her so called hidden power is still going to be hidden. What makes Sona OP is actually lichbane and not sona her self.

Also lichbane keeps several champions under powered, because it could make the champion into an assassin which goes against there kits. Example: Diana

D1rtFarmer1 votes

dude.. stop right there.. Zed and all the rest u named are OP, you must be a child to argue otherwise. So, i suppose the vast people who go out there way to make a thread on it Must be clueless because we dont ride the "OverPlayed" wave. Your arguments sound silly. you have tried to deflect your fav's strengths and embellish the weaknesses that All the other midlanes face. there are sooo many champs in the pool, yet you cant think of a reason Not to pick Kat, Akali, Zed mid lane.

Salidfingers2 votes

Sorry i dont know what your trying to say. I dont play kat, zed and akali i havn't been able to play her in a long time, because she is either picked or banned and if she is picked i school her. I used to play akali when she was 1% pick rate

Yes there are so many champions in the pool and i have learned who to use to counter said champs i run into. Even OLAF a champion on these forums that people consider bad.... So dont tell me i play the band wagon when i come nowhere near that train.

Look at other forums i have post. I talk about Olaf, Yorik, naut and much more.

Please.

Sound more like you're offended and angry with what i say and the post you replied to has nothing to do with ZED, Kat or Zed.... Im so confused.

RavenKouhai1 votes

{quoted}

Well didn't I just list more examples of champions in the previous reply that can counter so called OP champions.

Please don't over exaggerate with 99% when clearly there are much more counters that you are ignoring and what you are asking for is to make the champion that you are playing have no counters, because you cannot beat it. So lets make the counter against you useless so you can reign dominance.

Fun and Winning are 2 different things.

We all would like to have fun with what we enjoy, but you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Also do you think paper should win against scissors

I don't think paper should win against scissors. My point is, I don't think paper should lose 100% of the time to scissors, and vice versa. A champion shouldn't be able to win like 70% of matchups ez. I don't want the champs I play to be uncounterable, I just don't want one champion to counter like an entire class.

Ratbert1 votes

And get poked down horribly. It's hard to just farm when most champs need to use skills to keep up with the manaless pushing. Keeping up is not "can handle" but is on equal footing. Otherwise what's the point of merely not dying while your partner scales into late game?

Salidfingers1 votes

some champions will use abilities to disengage, but instead saving it to try and catch people.

This is when you punish them when the engage failed.

D1rtFarmer1 votes

lol... just stop yo.. this is when u "take" advantage huh? you're so trying to defend you're op champ playing asss man.. haha

Salidfingers1 votes

So you think killing someone in lane is the only way to get an advantage.....

I have listed ways to win. One example is bullying. There is many ways and depending your lane bully might be your only choice.

D1rtFarmer1 votes

you must bully and oppress all of which u have named.. I agree, but you're refusing to acknowledge that these tactics are getting to be repetitive seeing that you typically face the same types of champs over and over. and 4/5 times its the same manaless breed. It doesnt matter how often i win lane, its frustrating and obvious that this breed of champ has an advantage. The kits of manaless champs are crazy, there combos are essentially longer than a mana pool'ed champ. and more frequent.

Salidfingers1 votes

Ill agree i am sick and tired of seeing the same champions, but maybe it is the lack of solid champions in the game.

Over 120 champions and ill admit its dumb we see 10 consistent champions over and over.

Lets ask for buffs and not nerfs.

WolfBV2 votes

The only champs that I know of with no cost requirements are Katarina and Yasuo.

straight4free1 votes

{quoted}

The only champs that I know of with no cost requirements are Katarina and Yasuo.

entirely: Riven Aatrox

never prevented from using an ability by resources: RekSai Rengar Renekton Gnar

Don't get me started on those using health as their resource.

WolfBV1 votes

ah yes, forgot about some of those. don't forget Shyvana as well, though she really isn't as strong. and Vladimir is a thing, but I don't think he's too strong.

straight4free1 votes

{quoted}

ah yes, forgot about some of those. don't forget Shyvana as well, though she really isn't as strong. and Vladimir is a thing, but I don't think he's too strong.

Didn't include shyv cuz she needs her resource for her ult, and Vlad uses his health - didn't count champs whose only resource is health cuz that's

Vladimir Zac Mordekaiser DrMundo

I also forgot Garen who has absolutely no resource.

Tapu Fini1 votes

By that logic, Gnar also needs his resource in order to ult. His is just a bit less controlled.

straight4free1 votes

{quoted}

By that logic, Gnar also needs his resource in order to ult. His is just a bit less controlled.

I was going by whether or not they had an ability on their bars that they did not have access to without their resource. I see your point about Gnar though.

DarthSpectrum2 votes

I much rather just buff mana regeneration to where it was.

However, I would like to remind you that most energy/mana-less champions can only do damage to ranged targets either through a long CD point and click or a short CD slow skill shot. Both Zed and Kat has 17 seconds of cool down on their living shadow/shunpo. That is literally 1/4 of a minute where you can free cast on them. While Akali can't get close to a range champion until level 6, and Yasuo has to actually charge up his Q for a ranged poke. The only time these two can engage a ranged champions is if said champion blows all his/her spells and Yasuo or Akali still have enough HP left to go in.

On the other hand, champions such as Syndra and Annivia can spam ranged poke for days and easily k/o someone below 70% health.

I know that technically mana-less champions can as well, but from a pure damage stand point, they are already at a disadvantage as long as you don't spam abilities whenever they are off CD.

Therefore, it would be much easier just to buff mana-regeneration to the point where it was, and have everyone not worry about their resource system.

OJ1911 votes

{quoted}

I much rather just buff mana regeneration to where it was.

While Akali can't get close to a range champion until level 6, and Yasuo has to actually charge up his Q for a ranged poke. The only time these two can engage a ranged champions is if said champion blows all his/her spells and Yasuo or Akali still have enough HP left to go in.

u wot

walk up to minion line

press W

they now either miss CS or take a free Q+E+auto.

I mean yeah it's highly dependent on matchup whether it's WORTH doing so, but saying she can't even get close is silly, nobody wants to miss CS if they can help it.

{quoted}

People who don't play energy champs don't understand that energy isn't a free for all. There is a reason why these champions have energy and are not just flat out resourceless. Energy is a gate for the entire game, but mana is a gate for early game (and for some champions a little bit of late game). Shen, Akali, and Zed have to manage their energy efficiently otherwise they will run out of energy. The few seconds that it takes to regen it all back is extremely crucial.

I have never ever seen a non-retarded Zed who would have lost even if he WAS resourceless, run out of energy. It is too easy for him to get massive amounts of energy refunded. It desperately needs to be restricted to refund off champions only, so he can actually run OOE sometimes.

Akali only runs OOE if she's constantly fighting for ridiculous amounts of time, which shouldn't happen if she's fighting her proper targets.

Shen I'll give you, though didn't they buff his energy recently?

Brenticus122 votes

Manaless mid laners other than Zed don't require a nerf (A slight nerf to Zed such as reducing Q damage to minions would be nice), manausers require a buff.

The mana regen nerfs have neutered these champs and they should be reverted.

SleepyLionCub1 votes

I agree somewhat. Though why target zed? He has really high energy costs. One of the highest energy costs other than shen probably. If ur gonna complain about midlaners who dont have costs then complain about Akali

PickleBabah2 votes

Because along with being manaless he has a lot of mobility (W,R) clear, (Q/E + W) assassination, (Q/W/E/R), and poke (Q/W/E). We target Zed because no other champion can do those things as well all in the same kit.

Akali -has mobility (or at least gap closers, her means of surviving are for another day), bad (or at least not good) clear, bad poke, and good assassination. Kennen -decent mobility, clear, burst, and poke, although he has pretty darn clear weaknesses and costs. LeeSin -ANOTHER STORY Shen-okay mobility, no innate clear burst, mediocre poke

and that kids, in comparison to all other energy champions, is why we target Zed.

SleepyLionCub1 votes

{quoted}

Because along with being manaless he has a lot of mobility (W,R) clear, (Q/E + W) assassination, (Q/W/E/R), and poke (Q/W/E). We target Zed because no other champion can do those things as well all in the same kit.

Akali -has mobility (or at least gap closers, her means of surviving are for another day), bad (or at least not good) clear, bad poke, and good assassination. Kennen -decent mobility, clear, burst, and poke, although he has pretty darn clear weaknesses and costs. LeeSin -ANOTHER STORY Shen-okay mobility, no innate clear burst, mediocre poke

and that kids, in comparison to all other energy champions, is why we target Zed.

SO every manaless champion should be exactly the same? Also, you forgot Katarina who has even better poke, and damage than zed.

Also akali can turn invisible, and get movespeed buffs, this is very viable and you intentionally left it out of your description. Shen, and Kennen have WAY more cc than zed.

Im not even a zed player and I can see that he isnt really OP.

PickleBabah1 votes

Oh, heavens, NO TY. I don't think he's OP either. All that I'm saying is that he is strong in places where he shouldn't necessarily be due to his design philosophy, and I used the previous energy champions as something to build off of; every single one is unique and has different strengths for different reasons, and Zed is unique in his own ways, like his assassination style and capability to make plays, but then there are things that aren't needed for those things to happen.

Edit: I left out Akali's W on purpose because the worth of it can be harder to determine compared to flat properties

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