@Meddler, can we get some context on the Viktor changes?

Malicious Metal·Apr 27, 2016·54 votes·3,743 views

The communication's really lacking when it comes to Viktor's semi-rework and many people are less than satisfied at the proposed changes since they not only alter Viktor's niche and play pattern but also take away a lot of things that Viktor players enjoy and what make Viktor unique and satisfying to play.

There are far better things worth changing about Viktor to shift him away from instant burst and more towards Sustained damage like for example: -Lowering R's impact damage, upping the damage per 0.5 second -Lowering the laser's burst and giving his Q more UMF -Lower CD's on his abilities but lower damage

Making him a lot more clunky is something you should avoid though :/

-Someone who cares about Vik http://pre06.deviantart.net/4525/th/pre/f/2016/079/1/e/viktor__again_by_gengalery-d9vrjzc.png

40 Comments

Big LincolnApr 27, 20169 votes

the newest changes actually made him a lot smoother. now that his laser is faster, it feels more appropriate to have the delay -- it actually feels like an aftershock, and not an afterthought.

the ult doesn't feel at all like an ability that fits him anymore, which I feel is the biggest issue as he has very little to actually enforce that sustained damage pattern, and it feels shoehorned into his kit only to fit the large number of DPS mages we're getting with the update Cassiopeia Malzahar Annie Fiddlesticks

iamdestinosApr 27, 20164 votes

The latest update on the pbe lowered the missile speed of the laser though

Big LincolnApr 27, 20165 votes

It's still much faster than on live. I don't like that they felt it needed a nerf, but there's nothing I can do besides asking for a happy medium.

My biggest issue is still the ult change. At least make it _bigger _ so it can actually be a strong AoE tool.

Lady HammerlockApr 28, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q04xE7Ez,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-27T23:31:31.489+0000)

It's still much faster than on live. I don't like that they felt it needed a nerf, but there's nothing I can do besides asking for a happy medium.

My biggest issue is still the ult change. At least make it _bigger _ so it can actually be a strong AoE tool.

Actually i hated it when the speed was changed to 1200 it felt so fast with its animation that it felt clunky the reduced speed is a personal buff for me

His Ult is scary(if you can utilise it)which half the time you can't because its likely you'll die by the time your Ult ticks 1 time,its great in CC comps though

suggestions? -like you said bigger the better(should probably just scale with rank)so rank 1 is the size it is now,rank 2 it gets a bit bigger and same goes for rank 3 -Enemies within your ult are applied spell affects regardless if they have taken damage from it or not(refreshed every 0.5 sec)this is purely because more then anything these changes hurt his Synergy with item 3116 ,and sure giving him more reliability might be bad but look at what they did to Syndra i don't see Riot giving a fuck about the fact on how easy it is to pull 7 balls now -make casting Q give viktor a 25% attack speed buff for his next attack,because that attack is 10 times easier to cancel then his normal base attack(or improve the animation the wind up for it is terrible)

LemurKickApr 28, 20161 votes

Death Ray (E) missile speed lowered to 1050 from 1200 [live value 780]

That lowered missile speed.

iamdestinosApr 28, 20161 votes

Whoops I didn't know that sorry

Hay5eedApr 28, 20168 votes

The LAST thing viktor needs is more UMF on his Q. I am so sick of seeing Viktor's one shotting people with his impowered auto attack.

The dude has a freaking robot arm that shoots a damn laser. What do you use most to kill people? Your cane you say?

Viktor's power used to be in his Laser, and it should be put BACK in his laser

333lomApr 28, 20161 votes

I fully agree with this!

doubleguacApr 29, 20161 votes

His Q is a higher risk ability. Much lower range on the initial hit, and most of the damage is loaded into an even lower range auto attack. So in that sense, I think it's reasonable that the ability offers a high reward for using it aggressively.

The Q is fun as hell to use. It feels great using the MS to weave in and out of a fight, dropping empowered autos. His whole kit is fun as hell.

I don't understand why Riot has decided he isn't allowed to be a burst mage.

Hay5eedMay 1, 20161 votes

He should be allowed to be a burst mage, but he shouldn't be able to burst with ONE ability, which is what happens if you get fed with Viktor. Even Lux, the ultimate of all burst mages, has to land at least two abilities and auto, or use her ult as a second ability, to be lethal. Viktor on the other hand presses Q, gets shield to help brunt some response damage, gets movespeed so it's harder to run away from him, and then get a mini-nuke on auto. This isn't how a burst mage is supposed to play. Do you remember how old Viktor played?

You would get the upgraded Hex core and level up your laser (you could only level up your hex core once though, I loved it when Riot changed that). Your general laning combo would be to use your Q on a minion and wait for the boomerang to come back to get the shield and then try to poke the laner when your shield will soften any response you have. You E was a wonderful lane clear tool. Your combo was to land a successful W, then E+R and then maybe Q as an afterthought. Granted his Q was kinda useless before, I think it is TOO useful now. Gets instant shield, gets instant movespeed, and enhanced auto attack.

Maybe if they did something like his next auto attack does magic damage instead of attack damage and has bonus magic pen? That way it wouldn't nuke people but should still be a useful laning tool

Hay5eedMay 1, 20161 votes

Maybe if they did something like his next auto attack does magic damage instead of attack damage and has bonus magic pen? That way it wouldn't nuke people but should still be a useful laning tool

Also note that his Laser had no after shock effect, but instead a burning one meaning that it has no zoning power (or almost none). Any form of long range poke with it was very predictable and it had a significant cooldown so if he missed or mis used it to wave clear he was almost wide open for an engage, only relying on his W or R for protection

doubleguacMay 2, 20161 votes

At max rank, the Q does, total 330 (+.7) AP. Certainly a lot of damage. Not a totally unheard of amount of damage. It's a single target spell. In terms of it's actually base value and ratio, it's in line with his lazer. More damage than a single lazer hit, less than if the lazer hits aftershock. The main difference is that it has a low cooldown, and it has synergy with lichbane.

Lichbane is what makes Q do an obscene amount of damage. But lichbane is an extremely aggressive item to fit into Viktor's build. He only has 4 item slots to fill with AP items. Viktor really likes all of the following items: Llichbane, Rylais, Zhonyas, Void Staff, Rabadons, and situationally, Abyssal scepter. Viktor actually has to make some pretty big sacrifices to fit in Lichbane. It's probably either going to replace rylais (a health item) or Zhonyas/Abyssal (more defensive items).

Viktor cannot burst people with just his Q. He can definitely burst people with his Q/Lazer, which can be cast together very quickly. But that's a separate matter.

As for new vs. old viktor. Pre-rework viktor was borderline oppressive in lane. His Q offered a poor risk/reward tradeoff in late game team fights, but it had a very high base value, cost, like, 30 mana, and had a decent range for a fire-and-forget nuke. I remember dumping 2 early points in it in lane and just spamming it 24/7 on lane opponents. The lazer also had lower counterplay and synergyzed insanely well with Liandries, which meant rushing haunting guise (a super strong early/mid game item).

New Viktor is pretty bad in lane, but scales into some of the highest damage output in the game. But he's also squishy and low range.

I mean, do you think current Viktor is OP? He has had a terrible win rate since the lazer nerf. I've been playing him religiously since S2, and I've been having a lot of trouble finding consistent success on him. He's still a late game monster, but he legitimately has to work his ass off to get there gracefully. Though some of his concerns are meta-specific (lots of divey bruisers top and lots of assassins mid).

In any case, this is all irrelevant, because it looks like Riot is going ahead with these Viktor changes that literally no one asked for, and no one on the boards seems to particularly like.

Hay5eedMay 2, 20161 votes

I don't know what Viktor you played but the Viktor I played was all about that E. His Q was NOT a fire and forget nuke since is did little damage and required you to get with in a pretty close range to cast it. This combined with the fact that the shield only activated when the ability came back to you meant that your laner could still land good damage on you before the shield would come on.

CoveTemplarApr 28, 20166 votes

So as a person who was played Viktor constantly since before his Creator Viktor skin and even before he was popular. When everyone I ever got into a game with told me not to play him because he was 'trash' right before I carried them. I am frustrated with the changes to him. Honestly all of them.

The first 'rework' in which he got his new hextech staff was alright and I got used it it and have even learned to enjoy it albeit not as much as I ever enjoyed the previous gameplay.

The next changes come finally as he gets some LCS screen time(much like every other champ who receives nerfs directly after making the big time and trust me I saw it coming). It really really damaged his gameplay. Turning a champion that basically could be out-competed by most other mid-lane champs into something not many without previous Viktor experience would bother playing.

These potential changes to him seem just as damaging. Its changing a champion I love and have really enjoyed playing for a solid 3 years into a champion that I can barely stand to play because of his just low performance in lane. I play Viktor still and will always continue to because I just enjoy the champion and his play style a lot.

Overall I never really post on forums but I felt I should at least get my opinion out there or else I couldn't complain when he gets changed into a champion I don't have fun with. It saddens me that a champion I've put tons of hours into and have enjoyed playing since even before he was 'cool' or 'op'(granted I've rarely heard anyone call Viktor op) is being changed so much and turned into something I don't want to play. Not every champion needs to be as popular as Zed. In my mind Viktor is a very specific play style that not everyone enjoys...let him keep his niche.

Sahn UzalApr 28, 20165 votes

A while ago, I saw someone suggest Viktors hexcore should have an active, which made me think; What if we lower Viktors damage, but when he activates his hexcore he gains a selfbuff that increases his overall damage output for X amount of seconds. This way his poke would be reduced while his all in stays just as strong... Just a random thought :P

ScoroctApr 28, 20163 votes

Honestly the laser looks alright atm but the ult is iffy. The only reason I dont like the ult having such large ticks of dmg is because he (unlike other mages with dps) lacks instant hard cc to set it up.

By the way, where did you get such glorious artwork?

RasCaelestisApr 28, 20162 votes

Here's the source. It's not my art, I've just seen it a few times and really like it.

http://leidensygdom.tumblr.com/post/141279318291/i-said-i-do-for-some-goddamm-reason-a-viktor

Edit: Clicking the image will take you to the artist's tumblr, specifically the post featuring the art.

ScoroctApr 28, 20161 votes

thanks a ton! I search for viktor art now and then and have never found this beautiful piece

Average BardApr 28, 20162 votes

http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/11/117763/2815109-thor__600___page_43.jpg

Riot games, original character design since 2009...

Dr. Dooms name: Victor Von Doom

Soldier of 4JhinApr 28, 20162 votes

Welp time to refund my creator viktor skin if this goes through

doubleguacApr 29, 20162 votes

I just don't understand the whole reasoning behind changing him.

His gameplay is "flat" because it revolves around doing damage quickly? He's a burst mage. Riot literally just described what a burst mage does.

He's low range, squishy, and dashless. He has clear weaknesses to offset his late game damage output. He also has a very dedicated player base.

I just don't understand why Riot is trying to "fix" a champion who, as far as I can tell, isn't in any way broken.

USG FailsawceApr 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I just don't understand the whole reasoning behind changing him.

His gameplay is "flat" because it revolves around doing damage quickly? He's a burst mage. Riot literally just described what a burst mage does.

He's low range, squishy, and dashless. He has clear weaknesses to offset his late game damage output. He also has a very dedicated player base.

I just don't understand why Riot is trying to "fix" a champion who, as far as I can tell, isn't in any way broken.

Agreed. Same thing I said on page one. I just don't understand the purpose of these changes. He's fine, and above all he's mad fun. I wish they'd just leave him the hell alone =/

And it's the same thing everyone is saying, especially his dedicated player base.. but hey, who cares what the people who actually play him think.

Vistha KaiMay 2, 20162 votes

They are basically Karma'ing him.

Ironic considering they see Karma as a bland, thematical faliure.

MrLlamaWaffleApr 28, 20161 votes

While you're at it explain why Fiddle is still going to be sh!t?

My Waifu VanillaApr 28, 20161 votes

40% MS steroid, more bird bounces, and less reliance on CDR doesn't sound like shit to me.

hibernisApr 28, 20161 votes

You need to talk to ricklessabandon. He's working on the Viktor changes.

The Y2J ProblemApr 28, 20161 votes

After playing him a bit on the PBE (as far as the 04/27 patch), he's not as bad as I thought he would be. Overall, the aftershock on Death Ray isn't as bad as it appears on paper. Albeit, he still feels clunky compared to Live Viktor.

The important thing that I noted was that the initial blast of Death Ray seems to hit stronger than ever, and it's easier to hit since it's a bit faster now. Maybe that's just me, but it did seem better in that sense. The aftershock effect isn't as hard to hit as it may appear, since an increase of only 0.4 seconds isn't a huge change (Now the previous change from a 0.6 delay to a 1.25 second delay on the other hand, that was straight booty).

His ult does seem less enjoyable now, but the followup aftershocks hit like a truck. If Vik gets a setup or just lands a damn good Gravity Field, he can obliteratomize people. rickless hasn't said much in terms of context, as far as I can gather, just tweeting about the changes as they arrive.

MrWasjigApr 28, 20161 votes

Didn't you hear? Riot hates waveclear.

Malicious MetalApr 28, 20161 votes

Funny, seeing that PBE vik's got superior wave clear :P

MrWasjigApr 28, 20162 votes

Yeah NOW he has. But not after everyone who even slightly likes 'ol Viky threw up their arms and said the changes were shit (And I have to agree they were shit). Now Rickles is just doing damage control.

But I could be wrong. Since his previous nerf was directly at his waveclear and now it's better. Maybe Riot is switching rails again, who can even follow anymore? xP

ScramrailApr 28, 20161 votes

The problem is that rework Viktor has an almost insane amount of theoretical damage potential, but that's just it, its theoretical. Sure, Viktor has the ability to dish out a buttload of sustained damage in a team fight, but in order for any of it to really be impactful he needs a team built to accommodate him. This type of gameplay direction is extremely unhealthy, because it leaves the champion pathetically weak on its own (or in a team comp that isn't built around them), but incredibly oppressive in the right setup, with very little middle ground to speak of.

Im really struggling to think of a mid lane opponent that Viktor could actually do well against during the lane phase. The delay on his E means that he will almost never be landing the after shock, which means he will likely get out-poked by every other champion if his focus is on E. If you want to be able to combat your lane opponent effectively, youll need to focus on Q, but that just leaves him painfully open to being shoved under tower, at which point youll likely need to use that Q to farm.

There will never really be any kill pressure on your opponent in lane by yourself, and if your jungler doesn't have some form of reliable hard CC, getting ganks from them will be almost worthless.

TL;DR: Theoretical damage potential is a horrible design philosophy for a champion.

It Hertz When IPApr 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

TL;DR: Theoretical damage potential is a horrible design philosophy for a champion.

I give you.... Syndra's ult....

USG FailsawceApr 28, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q04xE7Ez,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-04-27T19:51:11.968+0000) There are far better things worth changing about Viktor to shift him away from instant burst and more towards Sustained damage like for example:

What I want to know is why exactly they even want him shifted away from instant burst and more towards sustained damage, in the first place? He's not even the best at that job to begin with. Lacking the reliable CC, and even kit safeness and burst itself, as most of the other similarly immobile mages.

Viktor as is, for me, is one of the 3 most fun champs in this game, and has been since before he was popular... These proposed changes only seem to shift the FUN FACTOR of what makes Viktor, Viktor, and add nothing to him. For what reason??

Why is Riot so intent on draining the fun out of everything they get their hands on lately? Feels to me like they're just changing him for the sake of changing him, and it's obnoxious as hell.

IxtaliKingApr 28, 20161 votes

The communication's really lacking when it comes to Viktor's semi-rework and many people are less than satisfied at the proposed changes since they not only alter Viktor's niche and play pattern but also take away a lot of things that Viktor players enjoy and what make Viktor unique and satisfying to play.

Communication is always lacking when it comes to Rickless, he just does his thing and we have no choice but to deal with it.

HammerpriestApr 28, 20164 votes

If you really want to catch him off guard, he posts on r/ffxiv in his offtime. That'll show him.

SmitemuffinApr 28, 20161 votes

Riot will always have this issue because they refuse to address his core problems:

He has a sacrificed item slot forced in him, but was designed to rely on 4 core items (boots, Lichbane, Deathcap, Voidstaff)
His ult is terribly weak (riot took off 25% of the initial damage when he was reworked)
He has no instant cc
He can't get defensive items to live long enough to do his sustained DPS because he has one item slot forcibly taken and 4 "must-have" items. Doing so will cripple him and make him not worth protecting
His DPS takes too long to get, lacks too much range/reliability and isn't high enough to justify building a comp to protect him
His W range was nerfed 30% on his rework and his Q damage was forced into an auto attack he can rarely survive using
His only "escape" is a speed boost that he has to stop moving in order to use

Until at least most of these get fixed, Viktor will always be in a constant limbo between over-numbered and so weak that your teammates will intentionally feed just because you picked him (quite a problem pre-rework)

CoveTemplarMay 2, 20161 votes

Man as a Viktor main who has carried the hell out of a lot of games, I disagree with just all of this. I however have experienced the "don't pick Viktor hes bad" train, but that was shortly before I went beast mode and carried.

SmitemuffinMay 2, 20161 votes

That's because you're 1500 elo where nobody can dodge spells

CoveTemplarJan 20, 20172 votes

Also 1500 elo where no one can hit spells either right? I'm playing with the same skill level people as I am, just like the pros...uahuahuahs match making amirite?

Hay5eedMay 1, 20161 votes

Remember when Viktor's laser set people on fire? item 3070