Riot we need a good item to rush to counter sunfire cape.

Irelia Bot·Apr 30, 2016·36 votes·4,102 views

Something that offers magic damage and MR and would be good on fighters who auto attack fairly often.

Something that feels perfectly fine to get for a fairly cheap price even if it is not the most slot efficient item option late game.

Something with stats like 42 on hit magic damage 40% attack speed 30 MR Unique passive: auto attacks give you 5 MR for 5 seconds stacking up to 4 times.

And cost around 2000 to 2200. Perhaps a little more since "all prices are higher these days" so something like 2300 total cost

No fancy MR shredding or anything like that just something that is effective at making a sunfire rush not as effective and does not feel like you are wasting a lot of gold in choosing to buy for laning phase but still feels decent after laning phase is over.

It would be bought especially when having to contend with the likes of a Fizz or Echo rushing a sunfire cape in top lane or perhaps that vlad who might be showing up more after 6.9 hits.

And it would by all means be counter play to the do nothing aggressive power of sunfire cape.

Sometimes you can learn a lot from history even if it was less then 4 years ago. Sunfire was not seen as broken or OP in season 2 and had to get nerfed in season 3 for no really clear reason. I have a feeling that one item in specific was doing a darn good job keeping sunfire in check.

64 Comments

SlashStrikerApr 30, 201611 votes

item 3091 item 3156 item 3001 item 3065 item 3102

item 3091 (1) instead dealing 40 magic damage on hit to deal 40% total magic resistance per hit the magic damage / hit could be from ~30 to 100 and beyond

(2) instead stealing 5 MR per hit to steal 5% MR per hit up to maximum X stacks

that way the item will be weaker early game but waaaaaay stronger late game

statelesskillerMay 1, 20161 votes

so turning it into a better MR black cleaver . . . i like it

LlaniteApr 30, 20168 votes

Why do you need to counter a generic armor/hp item?

yukumariApr 30, 20167 votes

Kappa

Irelia BotApr 30, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Kappa

sigma

Vistha KaiApr 30, 20164 votes

Nooope! Chuck Testa.

Legacy HydralphaMay 1, 20164 votes

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fz3.ifrm.com%2F272%2F197%2F0%2Fm2119566%2Fphoto-2119566.png&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fgundameclipse.net%2Fprofile%2F2119566%2F&docid=kKEz2lGohmJ1sM&tbnid=4zm733neWAd4PM%3A&w=385&h=291&bih=1075&biw=1920&ved=0ahUKEwiE16es5rfMAhUjmYMKHWsHCzgQMwg1KAMwAw&iact=mrc&uact=8

DarkRitualApr 30, 20164 votes

Abyssal Scepter, Wit's End?

Irelia BotApr 30, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Abyssal Scepter, Wit's End?

Season 2 wit's end.

PoskeMay 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pzw3VpH6,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-04-30T21:49:08.691+0000)

Season 2 wit's end.

While I absolutely agree with you and want wits end buffed to the point where it is viable pick

You are irelia main.. and want wits end buffed

Would you be willing to revert the last buffs she didnt deserve anyway then?

Irelia BotMay 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pzw3VpH6,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-05-01T13:48:48.001+0000)

While I absolutely agree with you and want wits end buffed to the point where it is viable pick

You are irelia main.. and want wits end buffed

Would you be willing to revert the last buffs she didnt deserve anyway then?

If that ended up needing to happen those buffs to Q would be next to nothign if Trinity and Wit's end were like they use to be.

Drunk RummateApr 30, 20164 votes

literally anything with lifesteal or magic resist will help you counter sunfire.

LuggMay 1, 20164 votes

If you are ranged, you already counter it with poke. If you are melee, why don't you have one yourself?

Critmaster GarenApr 30, 20162 votes

item 3211 -> item 3065 / item 3102

riot is like. -15 mr / -200 hp

Akali is SO HOTApr 30, 20162 votes

LadyRenlyApr 30, 20162 votes

LDR?

Fanny ForecastMay 1, 20162 votes

Uhm... You literally described an item already in the game... item 3091

Irelia BotMay 1, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fanny Forecast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pzw3VpH6,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2016-05-01T01:19:05.211+0000)

Uhm... You literally described an item already in the game...

I think you just had the joke go over your head...

I literally gave the stats of season 2 wit's end. The last season where it was a fairly common pick up on some champs besides Warwick. The last season where the stats were worth the cost for champs who auto attack and do not have a huge amount of their kit's damage as magic.

Fanny ForecastMay 1, 20163 votes

I'm used to the boards being 100% serious all the damn time, I've literally seen this thread, diff item description, but the guy wasn't being sarcastic. League boards are whiny children who are always far too serious (minus the memes and games section) so I assume that no one makes jokes unless it's in memes and games. :P

But yeah, wits is a fairly good pickup still on a few people (Kayle, WW, Shyvana, Machine Gun Lulu, etc.) but it's meant to be a niche item like Nashors (and purchased by people who get Nashors or devourer for the magic damage part)

I'm fine with items being niche items like this is, but more often than not, wits isn't worth it cuz of the stats vs cost efficiency. Plus it's an item that functions best in the early game but you can't really afford to get it until mid game, where it starts to fall off.

Irelia BotMay 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fanny Forecast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pzw3VpH6,comment-id=000e00000000,timestamp=2016-05-01T02:58:38.324+0000)

I'm used to the boards being 100% serious all the damn time, I've literally seen this thread, diff item description, but the guy wasn't being sarcastic. League boards are whiny children who are always far too serious (minus the memes and games section) so I assume that no one makes jokes unless it's in memes and games. :P

But yeah, wits is a fairly good pickup still on a few people (Kayle, WW, Shyvana, Machine Gun Lulu, etc.) but it's meant to be a niche item like Nashors (and purchased by people who get Nashors or devourer for the magic damage part)

I'm fine with items being niche items like this is, but more often than not, wits isn't worth it cuz of the stats vs cost efficiency. Plus it's an item that functions best in the early game but you can't really afford to get it until mid game, where it starts to fall off.

I am being serous about wanting it back to how it was in season 2 but had to get creative in the way of explaining it to get upvotes.

Fanny ForecastMay 1, 20161 votes

I'll reword that - I'm not used to the gameplay boards understanding or using humor or sarcasm.

But yeah, I agree, Wit's needs a buff to actually become usable. Like, it seems like it'd be PERFECT for Kayle yet I barely ever see Kayle built it because other items just function so much better. Even old rageblade and old gunblade were better than it.

Akali is SO HOTMay 1, 20161 votes

I'm used to the boards being 100% serious all the damn time

You should check out General Discussion sometime then

TheSushianMay 1, 20162 votes

Admittedly any general MR tank item works great versus those who rush Sunfire. It's just a general rule that if you can help it, don't try and force fights through sunfire as often in a battle of attrition, sunfire outpeels what they do to you.

If AD, you can always go hexdrinker, Spirit Visage, or Wit's End. Or, if AP, go Spirit Visage, Abyssal Sceptre, or Banshee's Veil. Ultimately do what you think is best as an MR option, and observe which damage types are highest and lowest.

LankPantsMay 1, 20162 votes

Eh, still not justifiable over a Hexdrinker. Why would I build this when Hex is cheaper, probably does more and has an upgrade.

There's two ways you can go with Wit's IMO, you can can drop the price significantly and make it a component or increase its price and make it worth it.

Number 1 would look something like

Wit's End Builds from + + +350 (1400)

Stats AS: 30% (750) MR: 25 (450)

Unique Passive: At Wits End (melee only) Attacking enemy champs steals 5 MR stacking up to 3 times, attacks deal 10 magic damage on hit.

Gold efficiency unstacked: 85.71% stacked: 105%

This would build into

Build + + +250 (3000)

Stats 60% AS (1500) 50 MR (900)

Unique Passive: At Wits End (melee only) Attacking enemy champions steals 7 MR stacking up to 6 times, attacks deal 50 magic damage on hit.

Gold efficiency unstacked: 80% stacked: 105.2%

This is the biggest MR item in the game when stacked, straight up, by a long-shot. Next biggest is Banshee's and this item has 22 MR on it when stacked. Of course the problem is stacking it. If you're Irelia, Jax or Shyvana it's probably going to be the only MR item you need, if not you'll probably struggle to stack it. It's an item that's actually justifiable in a 6 item build, which current Wit's is not. Its component would also help to deal with Sunfire as you suggested.

The alternative would just be to make a bigger Wit's End. Something you look at as Irelia or Jax as a possile replacement to your offensive item rather than a supplement as the above. This would be something like.

Wit's End + + + 280 (3200)

Stats 80% AS (2000) 40 MR (720) 10% CDR (300)

Unique Passive Attacking enemies grants Wits End stacks, up to a cap of 6. Your attacks deal 42+3 per Wits End stack magic damage (max 60). When you have 6 Wits End stacks gain +25 magic pen.

Gold efficiency: 94.38%

In this case it's a much bigger, more offensive Wit's building from powerful small components. It's not as much of a counter to Sunfire as the other item but it's still good into it due to the Neg-Cloak in the recipe. In a match up where both items are completed this one would be strong vs Sunfire as well, it's just harder to judge due to the higher price point.

Both of these solve the issue with Wit's that I think you missed. Wit's just doesn't give enough. It's stuck in an odd middle ground where it's too slow to be an aggressive item like a Morello's, which gives more for less and it's not big enough to be a complete item.

Irelia BotMay 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Eh, still not justifiable over a Hexdrinker. Why would I build this when Hex is cheaper, probably does more and has an upgrade.

There's two ways you can go with Wit's IMO, you can can drop the price significantly and make it a component or increase its price and make it worth it.

Number 1 would look something like Builds from + + +350 (1400) MR: 25 (450) Attacking enemy champs steals 5 MR stacking up to 3 times, attacks deal 10 magic damage on hit. unstacked: 85.71% stacked: 105%

This would build into 60% AS (1500) 50 MR (900) Attacking enemy champions steals 7 MR stacking up to 6 times, attacks deal 50 magic damage on hit. unstacked: 80% stacked: 105.2%

This is the biggest MR item in the game when stacked, straight up, by a long-shot. Next biggest is Banshee's and this item has 22 MR on it when stacked. Of course the problem is stacking it. If you're Irelia, Jax or Shyvana it's probably going to be the only MR item you need, if not you'll probably struggle to stack it. It's an item that's actually justifiable in a 6 item build, which current Wit's is not. Its component would also help to deal with Sunfire as you suggested.

The alternative would just be to make a bigger Wit's End. Something you look at as Irelia or Jax as a possile replacement to your offensive item rather than a supplement as the above. This would be something like. + + + 280 (3200) 80% AS (2000) 40 MR (720) 10% CDR (300) Attacking enemies grants Wits End stacks, up to a cap of 6. Your attacks deal 42+3 per Wits End stack magic damage (max 60). When you have 6 Wits End stacks gain +25 magic pen.

Gold efficiency: 94.38%

In this case it's a much bigger, more offensive Wit's building from powerful small components. It's not as much of a counter to Sunfire as the other item but it's still good into it due to the Neg-Cloak in the recipe. In a match up where both items are completed this one would be strong vs Sunfire as well, it's just harder to judge due to the higher price point.

Both of these solve the issue with Wit's that I think you missed. Wit's just doesn't give enough. It's stuck in an odd middle ground where it's too slow to be an aggressive item like a Morello's, which gives more for less and it's not big enough to be a complete item.

Hex Drinker was around in season 2 but people still tended to get Wit's end more often based on my experience. It however did not build into Maw back then so hard to say.

There is however the factor of adding magic damage to your auto attacks when you get wit's end compared to Hex which is only AD. In turn making it so that armor stacking is not all some champs like a nasus has to do to ignore a lot of AD focused melee champs.

If it had a low enough price to be a component I would not be against it building into a revamped Madred's blood razor which did do 4% max health magic damage on-hit when it was in the game. Perhaps keeping the 42 on hit magic damage from wit's end and adding 3% max health magic damage with the same passive name as "enchantment: bloodrazor" to stop them from stacking would be within reason.

Would say Wit's end + Raptor Cloak would be a great build path but probably too great.

Just a theory of stats but Wit's end 2200ish + Raptor Cloak 1200 + 400 = Madred's bloodrazor 3800 ish UNIQUE PASSIVE -BLOODRAZOR: 42 on hit magic damage + 3% max health on hit magic damage 42% attack speed 40 armor 30MR 150% base health regen. UNIQUE PASSIVE– POINT RUNNER: Builds up to +20% Movement Speed over 2 seconds while near turrets and fallen turrets. Auto attacks increase your armor and MR by 5 for 5 seconds stacking up to 4 times.

But I fear making such an item too good since I would have to contend with other champs finding a way to break it.

LankPantsMay 1, 20161 votes

There is however the factor of adding magic damage to your auto attacks when you get wit's end compared to Hex which is only AD. In turn making it so that armor stacking is not all some champs like a nasus has to do to ignore a lot of AD focused melee champs.

I don't think current Wit's End would be a good item at 2.3K if you left everything about it in tact. The reason why I bought up Morello's is that it's the only offensive item at that price range that really works. In order to do this it's literally a stat-stick. It gives almost 2k gold worth of AP alone, it's strong enough to compete with 3k gold items.

Current Wit's is a 2.7K gold item that's worth around 2.3K gold. It's stat distribution is terrible and it's a wasted slot come late game. This is a problem that you need to tackle if you want to look at Wit's End. You can't just make it a 2.3K gold item worth 2K gold, it's still just as bad at that.

Hex Drinker was around in season 2 but people still tended to get Wit's end more often based on my experience. It however did not build into Maw back then so hard to say.

Wit's was the bigger item in S2, neither of them had an upgrade. Since the introduction of Maw Hexdrinker has been the better item. It's statistically not that much worse and it's far cheaper, it's upgrade makes it slot efficient. Hexdrinker is cost efficient and Maw is slot efficient, Wit's is neither.

Irelia BotMay 1, 20161 votes

The thing is that for some champs like Riven and Zed hex/Maw will always be better but for others the prospect of attack speed with added on hit magic damage is a much better concept even without the shield.

And being able to bypass high amounts of armor to some degree is actually a really nice option and something wit's can do but hex can not. Mixed damage is greatly under rated in the overall power it offers.

Wit's end does not need to be a godly late game item. It just needs a good reason to be bought which he had in season 2 for more champs then it does now.

LankPantsMay 1, 20161 votes

Wit's end does not need to be a godly late game item. It just needs a good reason to be bought.

With the exception of boots, which are a special case every item which people buy currently is 1 of 3 things

An early game item with no real build path which is super cost efficient and cheep enough to justify selling off later
A component item which builds into a bigger item
An item which is big enough to be justifiable on a full late game build

Pretty much every non-support, non-boot item in the game falls into one of these 3 categories. For Wit's to be useful it has to as well.

The thing is that for some champs like Riven and Zed hex/Maw will always be better but for others the prospect of attack speeds with added on hit magic damage is a much better concept even without the shield.

I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about guys like Irelia and Jax. I would buy Hexdrinker over a cheaper Wit's on them.

Irelia BotMay 1, 20161 votes

And I would buy season 2 Wit's end over Hexdrinker if it was an option on Irelia and Jax in the game today. By all means both scale on par or if not better from attack speed when compared to AD. Both have on hit damage or a three strike passive. This is why the prospect of on hit magic damage and attack speed seems like an all around better option then AD.

The main reason why I would is because it is effectively bypassing the power of the armor from sunfire and IBG. All I see most top laners do these days is rush a sunfire or an IBG and I want an effective counter option to that to literally break this meta.

LankPantsMay 1, 20161 votes

You'd be surprised. S2 Wit's was not as good as you think, itemisation in general was weaker.

S2 wits had 40% AS, 30 MR, 42 Damage on hit and up to 20 bonus MR. When fully stacked it wasn't even cost efficient using modern stat values (cause fucked if I'm working out the S2 values). It's passive made that up, but it still wasn't that much stronger than Hexdrinker cost efficiency wise, it's probably less so than modern Hex.

Would people buy S2 Wit's over S6 Hexdrinker? Hell no, it's a 2k investment which doesn't go anywhere. I can make a 1.3K investment into Hex and only be 500 gold worth of stats behind ignoring both passive while paying 700 gold less. Think about that, would you actually invest 700 gold into 500 gold temporary advantage which backfires in the late game.

If Maw had existed in S2 people wouldn't have built Wit's End.

LankPantsMay 1, 20161 votes

UNIQUE PASSIVE -BLOODRAZOR: 42 on hit magic damage + 3% max health on hit magic damage 42% attack speed 40 armor 30MR 150% base health regen. UNIQUE PASSIVE– POINT RUNNER: Builds up to +20% Movement Speed over 2 seconds while near turrets and fallen turrets. Auto attacks increase your armor and MR by 5 for 5 seconds stacking up to 4 times.

This is far to generalist. If you built this+DMP+SV you no longer have to worry about damage. Putting both armour and MR on an item pretty much bars you from putting any other useful stats onto it, that's why A/MR items are based around passives and actives with the stats being secondary.

Your item also has a gold efficiency of 94.74%, which is insane when you consider the stats and passives. For example 20% MS is worth 790 gold meaning when that passive is active the item has 115.53% gold efficiency before its other passive. Then you compare this to GA and ZZ'rot, these items are both quite inefficient, it's a trade-off for having both armour and MR on the same item.

Irelia BotMay 1, 20161 votes

That is why I said at the bottom "But I fear making such an item too good since I would have to contend with other champs finding a way to break it."

I know it would likely be too good and I do not deny that factor. It would however cost 1100 more then zz'rot or GA to somewhat justify it. I would however like some other option for movement speed in the game that fighters who do not stack zeal items could get. That is where the Raptor Cloak comes to be an attractive suggestion.

I am also tryingto avoid giving it a health item in the build but that might be somehting that is to be considered givne that Crystalline Bracer or Kindlegem are in the right cost range.

LankPantsMay 1, 20161 votes

Your problem is that you're starting with a component valued at 2.2K. That's too high. You don't have any real room to put many stats on it because it's already doing a lot. You can't put a large component into it's recipie because you run into problems with distribution. This can already be seen in the 1.6K, significantly cheaper Haunting Guise.

That's why I reduced Wit's stats on my first item. I also kept it going in a single direction, your item is very generalist. It's a perfect item for any AS champ, and I mean any. At what you have it at it's an attractive item for people like Kindred and even most ADCs as a defensive item. Even if it's melee only the base stats and AS are just good enough, its build path is good to, you can go for armour and MR while building it up which has been a traditional strength of GA.

This is something I tried to avoid with my items, with item 1 I locked 750 gold worth of stats into a melee only passive and with item 2 I gave so much AS that you overcap if you try to combine it with Greaves and a Zeal item.

Irelia BotMay 1, 20161 votes

and in the end it is more a focus on trying to get an item worth getting instead of the forgotten item it is now.

DREADN0UGHTMay 1, 20161 votes

Just counter with item 3068

Tobias BracknerMay 1, 20161 votes

Yumuu

lofi n chillhopMay 1, 20161 votes

item 3751 best counter item? . seriously. you don't even need to rush item 3068 in order to ease off the laning pressure.

morris1May 1, 20161 votes

It's always nice when the enemy rushes item 3068 and all of a sudden nobody does any damage to them. /s

Irelia BotMay 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moraru Maurice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pzw3VpH6,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2016-05-01T08:17:15.862+0000)

It's always nice when the enemy rushes and all of a sudden nobody does any damage to them. /s

It is more a case of the damage they take is too well nullified while they get an extra fairly decent amount of damage in trades for effectively no effort.

Slamurai JackMay 1, 20161 votes

Looks like I'm not the only one of thought of Wit's End as a counter to Sunfire. I have a feeling Sunfire rush would still win though just due to how overtuned the item is atm.

Tychusfindlay919May 1, 20161 votes

I usually have phage and caufield's when the enemy has sunfire cape. He has better wave clear and I have better dueling.

Then again as Darius if the wave gets pushed too close to my turret I just drop a few Qs and it's back to normal.

Irelia BotMay 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I usually have phage and caufield's when the enemy has sunfire cape. He has better wave clear and I have better dueling.

Then again as if the wave gets pushed too close to my turret I just drop a few Qs and it's back to normal.

For some champs a BC rush is good For others it is not really an option.

Tychusfindlay919May 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pzw3VpH6,comment-id=00160000,timestamp=2016-05-01T19:47:08.114+0000)

For some champs a BC rush is good For others it is not really an option.

I 100% agree, and I think sunfire cape is problematic in and of itself. I don't think there should be a rushable item to counter sunfire, rather, sunfire shouldn't be so effective at what it does.

The question then is how to tackle sunfire. Change its stats (slot efficiency nerf)? Or make it so its harder to rush (cost nerf)?

Like I said, as a Darius , I don't find sunfire to really be all that much of a rushable item since my Q can accomplish the same thing in half the time and with very little mana cost for the most part. But sunfire is definitely problematic since it's being rushed by many champions no matter the situation, and there are many champions that simply can't handle it when their laner rushes sunfire as they are forced to their turret EFFORTLESSLY by the other champion. Literally effortlessly...

Irelia BotMay 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I 100% agree, and I think sunfire cape is problematic in and of itself. I don't think there should be a rushable item to counter sunfire, rather, sunfire shouldn't be so effective at what it does.

The question then is how to tackle sunfire. Change its stats (slot efficiency nerf)? Or make it so its harder to rush (cost nerf)?

Like I said, as a , I don't find sunfire to really be all that much of a rushable item since my Q can accomplish the same thing in half the time and with very little mana cost for the most part. But sunfire is definitely problematic since it's being rushed by many champions no matter the situation, and there are many champions that simply can't handle it when their laner rushes sunfire as they are forced to their turret EFFORTLESSLY by the other champion. Literally effortlessly...

And this is more an effort to make it so that something contends with the sunfire effectively without having to nerf sunfire to hell. A lot of the champs who can not contend with a sunfire rush tend to auto attack a fair amount and being able to make enemies have to think twice about rushing a sunfire would not be a bad thing at all.

Shrek LuigiMay 1, 20161 votes

Rush item 3512

Armor and MR to deal with mixed-damage, the Raptor Cloak passive makes you harder to kill under turret, and the Portal active helps you deal with the immense lane-shoving that Sunfire Fighters/Tanks often do.

You will be the coolest dude on the Summonerz Rift if you rush the ZZ.

Tychusfindlay919May 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shrek Luigi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pzw3VpH6,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2016-05-01T20:23:48.649+0000)

Rush

Armor and MR to deal with mixed-damage, the Raptor Cloak passive makes you harder to kill under turret, and the Portal active helps you deal with the immense lane-shoving that Sunfire Fighters/Tanks often do.

You will be the coolest dude on the Summonerz Rift if you rush the ZZ.

Early zzrot cant push as hard or effectively gold mine as great as sunfire cape.

Sunfire Cape adds dueling power through its passive, zzrot doesnt add any dueling power with its passive.

Sunfire cape gives 500 HP, zzrot gives none.

zzrot is mediocre at best compared to sunfire cape. zzrot gains its power later game (when you have a better amount of HP) while sunfire cape is strong at all stages except for the late late game.

Silent ArrowMay 1, 20161 votes

Just go hp and mr ..or get a sunfire yourself... lol

Irelia BotMay 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Silent Arrow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pzw3VpH6,comment-id=0018,timestamp=2016-05-01T20:26:19.545+0000)

Just go hp and mr ..or get a sunfire yourself... lol

So go pure defense to counteract them building a hybrid item and in turn making me unable to do anything?

I hope you have to deal with tops who rely on snowballing doing that in your games and see why that is not a good option.

Silent ArrowMay 1, 20162 votes

See now you're making up a scenario with a hybrid item now. lmao Thats different. But yes that could still work just have that lane be camped. It's called teamwork, win as a team.