Boards›Gameplay

The likely reason Riot hasn't 'fixed' range vs melee problems

Mira Arya Enthe··14 votes·2,106 views

Because it isn't simple. Range, no matter how weak, is an advantage(look at war irl). But if you just make the ranged champions shitty it feels shitty playing them. Mid/Late game it isn't much of a problem, as the game is more open to roaming, strategy, item builds and diverse gameplay options by then. Only in laning where enemy and you are forced to stand face to face for 10-20 minutes. Them out ranging you there is huge, so originally they made ranged champions immobile and/or shit early game so they can scale to relevance late game when range isn't so toxic. But people bitched about diversity and farm fests so Quinn and Graves, Gnar, Lethality builds and so forth came to be. Now it is a huge problem.

The solutions are not simple. We could go back to all ranged champions are shitty and vulnerable early, which fixes it but limits design and means they have to have an excessively rewarding late game.

We could buff the shit out of Doran's shield vs ranged, but... that is the same as above except it now forces anybody facing a ranged champion to buy a Doran's shield, even if it is not optimal on them at all.

We could bar them from playing in certain lanes, but that does what everyone hates, enforces a meta.

We could make melee champions super OP early game, but they all have to fall off as hard as Pantheon late game which feels terrible.

There is no simple solution to fixing range vs melee, or Riot would have done it already(They even experimented with things like ADC Morde, Yasuo's Windwall and other designs to counter range as melee). Most of the solutions either limit gameplay, tilt general balance or require a new engine and overall game design. Riot isn't just sitting on their ass, it is a hard problem to crack.

39 Comments

FalconPawwwwnch6 votes

Troll post

You don't even need to nerf ranged champions directly

You can easily change other factors in the game to make range vs melee less brutal

  1. Buff top lane tower range so ranged champs can't delete your HP under tower while you cs
  2. Fix minion aggro
  3. Introduce interactive starting items that let melee fight range (just not a huge statstick like old doran's shield) OR a starting item that deals 200 true damage to a minion with 500 range active with a X second CD so even if they deny you hard at least there's SOMETHING you can do

No other moba has this problem

Ahristocats4 votes

i also think that this is a troll post because

{quoted}

  1. Fix minion aggro

has been said ten billion times and it isn't stated in this thread almost like we forget that on purpose

WoonStruck5 votes

Any game where taking hits is the norm seems to do fine with it...

Its pretty much just LoL outside of a select few ARPGs in alpha/beta phases.

LoL doesn't give significant trade-offs for being ranged. Its just better if you have it than if you don't.

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

We aren't talking about other games, we are talking about LoL. I could say Range is fair in HotS but it is a totally different game, you don't have to farm and roaming is more important than laning. We are talking about LoL, in LoL fixing it is very hard.

Irelia Bot1 votes

Do you even turnspeed?

Mira Arya Enthe8 votes

Yes, I come from an RTS background. I understand fully turn speed. I consider it a crappy mechanic. As a former athlete and martial artist I find it is very easy to turn in an instant. Heck, even an out-of-shape nerd can turn in a split second if they try. I prefer games without turnspeed.

What is more, that alone wouldn't fix the problems with range vs melee in LoL anyway. But it would make kiting late game nearly impossible.

Keira Helsh2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pq6nvy4l,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-03T06:02:49.404+0000)

Yes, I come from an RTS background. I understand fully turn speed. I consider it a crappy mechanic. As a former athlete and martial artist I find it is very easy to turn in an instant. Heck, even an out-of-shape nerd can turn in a split second if they try. I prefer games without turnspeed.

What is more, that alone wouldn't fix the problems with range vs melee in LoL anyway. But it would make kiting late game nearly impossible.

I feel like it's important to note for clarity that it would have been a viable fix 100 champions ago. But nowadays, if they just added turn speed, which as has been mentioned would likely require a new engine, though some turn speed mechanics do exist right now. (Vel'koz ult), it would actually kill the balance of any champion that needs to kite, which is basically all ranged, because the mobility of mobility champs, which is a lot now, is balanced against current kiting power. So in the game's current state, turn speed would make late game kiting nigh impossible, and would require a full rebalance of the game anyway.

Personally, if I were to rebalance the game I would tone down the min/max nature of the marksman and rebalance the game around the lessened existence of the role of 'carry'

Warlord Scrap2 votes

That would require a new engine and every champ to be rebalanced. Preseason 8 at the earliest preseason 9 would be more likely.

WoonStruck4 votes

In LoL its only a problem because there aren't significant trade-offs, which could easily be implemented, even aside from something like turn-speed which would not fit in LoL.

The scope of the follow-up changes that would be required would be smaller than the arbitrary preseason changes they make every year, so effort is no excuse.

Ahristocats5 votes

You know why Darius can go botlane?

because he can trade easily with ranged champions Once he hits lvl 2 with a support that can engage a fight he hooks them and destroys them

the range vs melee situation in league has always been "can you engage on a ranged champion? yes-->you can lane against them, no--->you get bullied" until the "let's give 80% of ranged champions a free disengage"

in dota this problem isn't here because there are in-game solutions to balance the lack of range without even touching heroes minions move at 350 ms and have as much AD as ranged champions aggro starts when you rightclick an enemy, making a melee able to rightclick a range, then pull minions into his tower to farm Ranged champions start with 40 to 50 AD, in league with runes and doran blade you can get 70 AD at lvl 1

DunkinNoobs3 votes

Melee vs. Ranged is nowhere near as bad as people think it is. Laning against Quinn will never be a fun time but it's manageable provided to build properly and manage the wave correctly.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

It's not bad? Why are slightly fed irelias, daris roflstomping every team while being nigh unkillable? Because they have to be so overpowered to be able to compete with ranged or they get a bazillion gapclosers (point and click preferably) and MS boost and base MS etc.

DunkinNoobs2 votes

{quoted}

It's not bad?

No it still sucks. But it's nowhere near as bad as people complain it is.

LankPants3 votes

To me the logical fix is to make it so melee champions just get about 20% more out of everything they build.

For example a Longsword would give 10 AD to ranged and 12 AD to melee. A Bloodthirster would give 75 AD, 20% lifesteal and a shield for up to 350 to ranged and 90 AD, 24% lifesteal and a shield for up to 420 for melee.

Obviously there'd be some initial balance issues, but I think in the mid-long term changes like this could really help.

Aimléss3 votes

Maybe it helps a Darius who gets the shit kited out of em, but what happens when someone who already rapes ranged, like I don't know Yii, Fiora, or Yasuo get this boost when they already shit on ranged? What about assassins? And isn't this just gonna make the less viable marksmen even worse??? Hell, it even nerfs their late game lol. RIP

ProfDrDeath2 votes

Amen.

From a philosophical/game design point of view, it is interesting to see what other games do differently to fix range/melee disparity. Take, for example, DotA/DotA 2:

  • Everyone who thinks of DotA and melee/range disparity will mention turn speed first. While that contributes to alleviating the disparity, it is not the main reason while also being a rather counter-intuitive mechanic (why would the person unencumbered by anything be slower to turn than the guy in 40+ kg of plate armor?).
  • Another factor mentioned often is that the item and ability mechanics are set up in a way that gives more benefit to melee champions. This is also true, but still only a contributing factor.
  • The main things DotA does to fix the disparity are two balance choices that comes with its own limitations and drawbacks: In DotA, burst damage does not scale majorly through the game. and The attribute system sets damage dealers up to be generally fairly well on the defensive side as the game goes on. The combination of these two systems means that games can reach a point were even an offensively-built melee champion can survive the initial burst of damage and employ sustained damage and Lifesteal to a successful fight. This is especially true with Agility, whose heroes get two exponentially scaling offensive stats (damage and attack speed) out of it, as well as Armor (which improves Lifesteal).
Ahristocats2 votes

{quoted}

In DotA, burst damage does not scale majorly through the game.

it is no longer true

ProfDrDeath1 votes

How so, beyond Intelligence increasing ability damage by 0.0625% per point?

Looking at items in general, the single biggest INT item is Scythe of Vyse with 35 INT - or 2.1875% increased spell damage. That's why I said "majorly".

Contrast League, where a simple 80 AP item increase an ability's damage by anywhere between 15% and 25%.

Ahristocats1 votes

Because Magic resistance per level doesn't exist in dota

Paroe2 votes

@thread Long range champions should have 325MS (600+AR) Standard ranged champions should have 325-330MS (above 500AR, below 600AR) Mid-range champions should have 330-335MS (475 and lower, but above 150. Hybrid champions such as kayle fall under this). Melee champions should have 340-345MS Melee champions with no dash/flash gap closers should have 345-350MS

Further, %MS needs to be removed from zeal or melee champions need a core item that gives them at least 5%MS (Like boots having a melee-only aspect).

Chaos Milk Tea2 votes

Ranged champions rely much more on movement speed (or its opposite, zoning) than melee's do. Ranged champions are more heavily punished for their positioning than melees, as one skill shot colliding with you can mean instant death where as many melees can recover from a stun or hook.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

Most of it is already balanced like this. For example Pantheon, Shyvana and Yi have high tier movement speed. Ashe, Caitlyn and Lux have 325. This already causes ADCs to be punished for mispositioning harder than any other class. Also all other classes have better movement speed options barring PD. Things like Tri-Force, BC, Youmous, Luden's, Deadmans and the like are far stronger MS steroids than a Ruunans or Statikk Shyv.

Paroe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pq6nvy4l,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2017-03-03T15:45:21.127+0000)

Most of it is already balanced like this. For example Pantheon, Shyvana and Yi have high tier movement speed. Ashe, Caitlyn and Lux have 325. This already causes ADCs to be punished for mispositioning harder than any other class. Also all other classes have better movement speed options barring PD. Things like Tri-Force, BC, Youmous, Luden's, Deadmans and the like are far stronger MS steroids than a Ruunans or Statikk Shyv.

Not... really. Lux is in the 330 camp. Nautilus and morde are in the 325. It is a general rule for sure, but one that needs to be adhered to MUCH more strongly for there to be any real worth in it. Ranged champions simply dont have a tradeoff.

Also... 380+5% = 399. thats almost as much as phage gives. It takes a SIGNIFIGANT amount more movement speed to catch someone, and between their mobility and CC, you need a huge difference in MS to catch them. If all ADCs (sans the 475 ones) were at 325MS, they wouldnt be able to simply run away; they would have to position properly and stick with an ally who can help them run away. Marksman should NOT be "i can 1v3 from 500 range because i have sustained burst AND self peel!". They should need a team around them to make up for their short coming; and in this suggestion, that would be a bottom-teir MS.

RavenMagus2 votes

Range, no matter how weak, is an advantage(look at war irl).

While that's true in a way, real life has the poor balancing issue where humans are very squishy and die in one hit to pretty much anything, so whoever hits first always wins.

Ralanr2 votes

Or we could stop giving self peel to ADCs.

Dumb idea I know.

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

I totally want no options to protect myself from Zed, Akali, Fizz, Talon, Rengar, Kha'Zix and crew. Sounds so fun to have 0 defense against Riven, Fiora, Jax and Quinn. Doesn't that sound like a fun class to you? It's not like I am already a squishy tomato waiting to be stepped on if that self peel isn't sufficient or is on cooldown. It's not like I am already heavily reliant on allied peel and my support to the extent that this class in known for being toxic since they have a ton less agency without their allies than most others. Heck let's make the right click class more stat check ane brainless.

Wouldn't you want to play this?

Ralanr2 votes

Well I did admit it was a dumb idea.

I have played adc and know how absolutely terrifying it is to rely on your team to keep you alive from everyone that wants you dead. That alone pushes me away from the role. It just annoys me when it feels like the adc doesn't need to rely on their team and doesn't sacrifice anything they normally wouldn't from it.

I'm still in the boat to have ADCs that actually fall off.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

All ADCs are team reliant except potentially Vayne and to a lesser extent Draven. If including oddballs Quinn and Graves. All standard DPS ADCs are purely reliant on their team. Especially as you climb elo. In my Silver games I can get away with split pushing on Ashe because enemies are dumb and send a single underfed Nasus to fight me when I am fed. But a smarter team would either collapse 2-4 people on me and remove my DPS from my team. Or would force a team fight at an objective and win it 4v5. That aside Ashe's passive and R won't save her from even a moderately good Riven or Fizz or Nautilus who catches her alone late game. These abilities simply give her some level of personal agency in laning, team fights and skirmishes so she doesn't feel completely like a stat stick who dies when something looks at her.

Ralanr2 votes

I know how valuable ADCs are and how much they should be protected. Most of my ranked wins are from me playing peel tank supports.

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

I know you understand basic game strategy. You are one of the boards members I can stand talking to. I just wanted to indicate that with exceptions, ADCs are mostly a product of their team. They can learn to CS and position and kite. But in the end vs smart enemies they are a tasty treat waiting to be devoured without their allies around them. At the moment this is their primary drawback. What is more, standard DPS ADCS are not even a problem for top lane. Champions like Jayce, Quinn and Kennen are.

Now if you still want to talk about the problems with standard DPS ADCs we can. But keep in mind if we remove things like their late game hyper carry and annoying siege power, which is their primary value, we have to give them more early game agency and skirmishing power. In which case you are asking for more Quinns, Graves and Jayces to exist.

Ralanr3 votes

Personally I would be more fine with those existing (though it never feels like any fall off except arguably Jayce, but I think that's just straight up bias on my part) if it also compensated other roles to function against them.

The reason why Jayce, Quinn, and Gnar are so dangerous in top is because the game doesn't really prepare you to fight against them imo. It boils down into the ranged superiority problem again, though they are so "rare" amongst the top lane roster that there is no need to have a niche item or whatever to help deal with them (and in doing so, fucks up the weak early marksmen).

If strong ranged champions that fell off were more common, you could justify an item that works against them and potentially balance their lane around it. It might even justify all the self peel they tend to have (especially Gnar because he gets so durable that he ignores the weakness of being ranged).

So while it would be annoying, it opens up diversity and has the potential to fix the problem.

Ralanr1 votes

Also it means a lot that you think of me that way. Thanks.

Sasogwa2 votes

Butchering ranged champions base AD would go a long way. Earlygame, it's not like melee champions can constantly gapclose to ranged champions and they're just hard bullied by ranged champions without being able to do anything. It's not that complicated to nerf their base AD by 6 and give them +0.33 AD/level. Just remember when Orianna was godlike tier because she had really powerful AA early on. They nerfed her AD by 8 and she became... balanced. The problem with adcs is that range itself is such a good steroid, that you simply can not design them as lanebullies, because they'll automatically scale so well. (well Riot did it anyway, but that doesn't mean I agree with that policy. Burn in hell Caitlyn ). Unless you give them like absolutely no steroid/ AD ratio whatsoever, then they'd be pretty much like a mage who builds full AD (it can actually work :D from my experiences in one for all).

Derfel1 votes

No, it's not.

sobi9991 votes

Riot doesn't want to balance the game. When will you all actually take that into consideration when you mention how difficult it is to balance? Although the current shitty balance team can't even sort its own mistakes out.

Spoofghoul1 votes

all that needs to happen

nerf movement by 10 if ranged

nerf movement by 10 if you have mobility

got both well sucks to be you -20 movement

No mobility nor ranged? + 5 movement

just tone down on some of the mobility so champions with no movement actually have a chance at doing something

just nerfing ranged isn't a whole solution it makes them more vulnerable to mobility which is one of 2 counters besides cc, if we gonna do a light nerf just hit the movement of both make champions with no mobility or range get a small movement buff and voila problem solved

makes being ranged with mobility actually require you to take advantage of being ranged and having said mobility in order to kite

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

Most of it is already balanced like this. For example Pantheon, Shyvana and Yi have high tier movement speed. Ashe, Caitlyn and Lux have 325. This already causes ADCs to be punished for mispositioning harder than any other class. Also all other classes have better movement speed options barring PD. Things like Tri-Force, BC, Youmous, Luden's, Deadmans and the like are far stronger MS steroids than a Ruunans or Statikk Shyv.

Best princess EU1 votes

i don't see any talk about minion aggro

FireDrizzle1 votes

Most ranged champs are too strong in the early levels I think, including the "lategame champs". Teemo and a lot of other ranged champs vs melee depend on abusing the melee before he's built armour/mr and if they dont kill or poke the melee out early, or they are screwed later(unless their kit has stupid amounts of safety). Having little choice what to buy is annoying, "I'm versus bla bla time to rush item 3065 /item 3047 /armour item. The ranged champions I hate to lane vs are the safe ones, or the ones who are also really strong in melee rangeGraves Gangplank Jayce Quinn

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Mira Arya Enthe

People who think Voice Coms will improve League
Gameplay354 comments
329
votes
Why Jhin should be gutted
Memes & Games73 comments
305
votes
Has anybody else just, ceased getting excited for new champions?
Gameplay435 comments
244
votes
"Counterplay"
Gameplay218 comments
232
votes
Some people actually enjoy simple kits...
Gameplay289 comments
229
votes
I genuinely feel bad for any nice people who main...
Gameplay414 comments
188
votes