"As a valuable counter pick to tanks in top lane, we’re looking to help Darius cleave through some of that armor to encourage teams to think strategically when drafting top lane champions." Don't people just picks Darius into anything nowadays? He does soo much damage that it doesn't matter who he is against he will just lane bully them and facestomp them.
Frosted Tips10 votesYorick and Garen getting nerfed have nothing to do with each other or the buff to Darius. Yes I disagree with the buff, but Yorick and Garen deserved their nerfs.
Critmaster Garen20 votesYorick and Garen getting nerfed have nothing to do with each other or the buff to Darius. Yes I disagree with the buff, but Yorick and Garen deserved their nerfs.
no champion deserves to get nerfed for stomping bronze.
Frosted Tips6 votesI disagree completely. No champion should be stomping in any tier of play, but regardless of that Garen was stomping in Plat and Diamond. And Yorick was doing very well all the way up to Plat.
Vonyalo7 votesYeah.... ehm... no champion should be stomping in any tier.... ehm....
Do you know any garen main challengers by any chance?
DuskDaUmbreon11 votesIf a champion is stomping any tier that champion needs to be nerfed.
Bronze don't want Garen winning their games single-handedly any more than pros want Ryze winning them single-handedly.
If a champion has to be useless at one tier so that another tier can actually handle it, then that's just what has to happen.
Critmaster Garen20 votesIf a champion is stomping any tier that champion needs to be nerfed.
if a champion is stomping low elo, the people at low elo need to get better at playing against him.
stop with this notion of completely backwards ass balancing. its not the game that needs to change. its your play that needs to improve.
you cant compare those situations. if ryze stomps high elo, then there is nothing people could do to deal with him, than ban him out or pick him. its just an indicator, that hes a better champion than the other champions in this game, in the hands of a capable player.
if a champion is stomping low mmr but weak at high mmr, the players still have the option to improve their play against him.
if a champion stomps low mmr, but is weak at high mmr, there are obviously strategies that these people developed, that you havent learned yet. if youre asking for a nerf for that champion, youre just trying to justify your lazyness and unwillingness to learn how to play against the champion.
DuskDaUmbreon4 votesYou can't improve and you don't have anyone at a 60% winrate in your tier of play. How do you think Bronze is going to get better with Garen stomping them in in every game?
Critmaster Garen10 votesYou can't improve and you don't have anyone at a 60% winrate in your tier of play. How do you think Bronze is going to get better with Garen stomping them in in every game?
bronze as a whole doesnt.
but an individual player in bronze can get better at dealing with him if he plays long enough and improves his own play, and he will eventually climb as a result.
youre confusing cause and effect here buddy. youre not bronze because of a champion who stomps that mmr. but the champion stomps that mmr because youre bad. the answer is to get better.
D357R0Y3R4 votesthat's just straight up wrong
even if you get better at dealing with garen if your entire team can't you won't be able to win
Critmaster Garen9 votesthat's just straight up wrong
even if you get better at dealing with garen if your entire team can't you won't be able to win
thats true for any tier. you cant control your team, and only your own play.
low mmr though is so particularly garbage at the game, that you will eventually be able to carry yourself out of there anyway. its been proven countless times.
anyone at plat and above given a bronze 5 account could carry himself out of bronze within a couple days. it wouldnt matter that the rest of his team gets stomped, because hed know how to stomp harder.
Chembaron Yamada1 votesYes, but what you want here is champions to have a balanced winrate in high elo and an OP winrate in low elo.
You can't control your team, but your chance of winning is mathematically better against 5 champions with 50% winrate each in your elo than against 4 50% winrate and 1 60% winrate.
Because this champions has proven that he is hard to handle for people in that elo. Picking that champion automatically gives a higher probability to win because the winrate reflects that it is more likely that over half the people in the enemy team are not able to handle it than to be.
That's not how it should work. They should balance around every elo. Even if you yourself know how to play against a champion, your chances to climb get lowered by the simple fact that the stats show that your team won't be able to handle it.
You can win and you can climb out of that elo, but champions with that winrate in that environment make it inappropriately hard to do so.
Critmaster Garen3 votesYou can't control your team, but your chance of winning is mathematically better against 5 champions with 50% winrate each in your elo than against 4 50% winrate and 1 60% winrate.
still confusing cause and effect.
the champion has 60% winrate against people who havent learned how to play against him yet. if you do exactly that, you push the odds in your favour, and hes not going to have a 60% chance of winning against you anymore.
and i dont want champions to have high winrate at low mmr. i just want riot not to give a shit when they do, as long as theyre balanced at high mmr.
Chembaron Yamada1 votesYou miss the point. Even if you learn to play against him, the odds are against you that the other 4 people are able to do the same. There is a reason the champion has a high winrate in that environment: because most people there can't deal with them.
Meaning that your chances to climb are lowered, since you can't influence your team mates to change that.
And if you want to balance around high elo and not give a fuck about low, then some champions will definitely have a high winrate in low elo naturally. Doesn't matter if you intend it or not, that's what's going to happen.
And honestly, all this attitude of "just get better"....
People could as well say: you want to be successful in high elo? Just don't play Garen. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Guzergus1 votesActually, you will be able to win more and will statistically climb in the long run. That's exactly how it works.
NemeBro1 votesYou can't improve and you don't have anyone at a 60% winrate in your tier of play. How do you think Bronze is going to get better with Garen stomping them in in every game?
I barely play, and are you implying that people can't pull themselves out of bronze?
It happens all the time. Your point is idiotic, almost as much so as the notion that the game should balance anything around people who can't play the game.
Sir Prepuzius1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ppBAiWRT,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2018-09-26T18:52:28.615+0000)
if a champion is stomping low elo, the people at low elo need to get better at playing against him.
except that low elo is the majority of the playerbase, so that should count as a priority
if a champion is stomping low mmr but weak at high mmr, the players still have the option to improve their play against him.
if a champion stomps low mmr, but is weak at high mmr, there are obviously strategies that these people developed, that you havent learned yet. if youre asking for a nerf for that champion, youre just trying to justify your lazyness and unwillingness to learn how to play against the champion.
that may be correct in regards to laning phase, but since this is a team game you need a team to overcome those disparities, that has to be taken into account think adc in bronze without a peeler and with a teamp comp full assasin/mage/bruisers building damage and think adc in diamond with a proper team comp that counter picks enemy team
Critmaster Garen3 votes[{quoted}](name=Sir Prepuzius,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ppBAiWRT,comment-id=00000000000100000001,timestamp=2018-09-27T15:02:12.220+0000)
except that low elo is the majority of the playerbase
doesnt mean shit. the majority of the people are either bad, or just started out with the game. which just means they have massive room to improve.
you dont change the rules of the game, because the majority of the people havent learned them yet. thats ridiculous.
its like making math tests easier at school, because the pupils are unwilling to learn the subject. literally nothing in life works like that.
stop excusing your lazyness and try to improve or accept that youll never move out of low mmr.
that may be correct in regards to laning phase, but since this is a team game you need a team to overcome those disparities, that has to be taken into account
if the champion is played in 50% of the games either on your side or the enemy side, then how well youve learned to deal with him makes the difference.
garen for example doesnt just have lane counters. janna, anivia, nami, thresh etc. most enchanter supports and a bunch of mages hard counter him, and shut him down even when hes fed. a lot of these low mmr stompers have this type of out of lane counter or counter strategy in addition to direct lane counters. hence why they only stomp low mmr.
put some minimal efford into learning these strategies and youre going to climb, even when the champion generally has a 60% winrate down there.
Sir Prepuzius1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ppBAiWRT,comment-id=000000000001000000010000,timestamp=2018-09-27T15:59:29.360+0000)
doesnt mean shit. the majority of the people are either bad, or just started out with the game. which just means they have massive room to improve.
then if i have to take this logic to the extreme riot is right about balancing the game around pro play. they know how to play best and the other should just shut up and get gud
stop excusing your lazyness and try to improve or accept that youll never move out of low mmr.
put some minimal efford into learning these strategies and youre going to climb, even when the champion generally has a 60% winrate down there.
of course what i meant is that you can't improve team sinergy, individually, and that is often what makes a difference between low and high elo. for example the same adc player in low elo is bound to perform generally worst when put with a low elo team
Critmaster Garen2 votes[{quoted}](name=Sir Prepuzius,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ppBAiWRT,comment-id=0000000000010000000100000000,timestamp=2018-09-28T08:44:47.333+0000)
then if i have to take this logic to the extreme riot is right about balancing the game around pro play. they know how to play best and the other should just shut up and get gud
there is a significant difference between organized pro play and solo que. the communication barrier. a trained and synchronized pro team that is shot called by a leader and with people instantaneous sharing knowledge about enemy positioning on the map (like the jungler or roams) is something thats not possible in solo que.
so the best compromise is to generally balance around high mmr solo que. riot also reserves a few patches for pro play balance, like the recent ones. that is why seemingly strong champions got buffed further, and seemingly weak champions nerfed.
of course what i meant is that you can't improve team sinergy, individually, and that is often what makes a difference between low and high elo. for example the same adc player in low elo is bound to perform generally worst when put with a low elo team
at low mmr people are so bad, and have so much room to improve that youll eventually be able to solo carry with an adc.
its up to you if you want to pick a more difficult, team reliant champion that takes longer to master. down there the meta doesnt mean shit, which means you dont even have to pick an adc into a teamcomp, as evident by the 8.11 meta shift where low mmr adc mains complained that non adc champions were playing and winning their lanes, that werent even playable at high mmr.
even if your team is garbage and feeds their asses off, there are still strategies you can use to win by yourself down there. this is why people constantly make it out of that mmr within days on their smurphs.
SHANK LUX MAINS1 votesGaren wasn't weak at high mmr lol he was stomping up to challenger when played by mains. His kit is stupid and if hes viable in challenger hes too strong bc if the best players cant abuse his simple kit it means its overtuned
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=SHANK LUX MAINS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ppBAiWRT,comment-id=00000000000100000002,timestamp=2018-09-27T17:22:04.101+0000)
Garen wasn't weak at high mmr lol he was stomping up to challenger when played by mains. His kit is stupid and if hes viable in challenger hes too strong bc if the best players cant abuse his simple kit it means its overtuned
for almost the entire time during the vs. event patches, he had like 50% to 52% winrate diamond and upwards when he was at his strongest.
its just that the gap between diamond 2/1 and lower is gigantic, so he had 54% winrate in plat for a couple days.
doesnt help that people in lower divisions are fucking morons and kept picking multiple assassins per team (including support with pyke), when he hard counters that type of champion.
think of what champions were popular/strong on that patch. kha jungle, pyke support, talon/zed mid. people were running tons of assassins into their games.
thats the equivalent of repeatedly building a 3 marksman comp into malphite. really shitty idea. doesnt mean malphite is op, just that people are idiots.
he was played in a few challenger games at the time, but he wasnt stomping anything above plat lmao.
You cant expect a whole elo (low in our case) to learn to play against everyone. They are low elo for a reason.
Critmaster Garen2 votesYou cant expect a whole elo (low in our case) to learn to play against everyone. They are low elo for a reason.
im not. bronze as a whole will always get stomped by particular champions.
but individual players can improve themselves and climb as a result.
But the thing is, the game is focused around team play. You can learn to play against him. This doesnt apply to your teammates. Sure in low elo you can solo carry easier compared to high elo and mid. But by the end of the game, if all of your teammates are bad, more likely than not, you will lose.
Critmaster Garen1 votesBut the thing is, the game is focused around team play. You can learn to play against him. This doesnt apply to your teammates. Sure in low elo you can solo carry easier compared to high elo and mid. But by the end of the game, if all of your teammates are bad, more likely than not, you will lose.
pretty sure i already answered this. if you improve enough, your team wont matter. especially at low mmr.
You can improve your skills. You cant your team's though. This is extremely flawed. No matter how you look at it.
NemeBro4 votes[deleted]
DuskDaUmbreon1 votesYou can't improve and you don't have anyone at a 60% winrate in your tier of play. How do you think Bronze is going to get better with Garen stomping them in in every game?
AMADEUSdotEXE1 votesAre you hearing yourself? Tell your mother to read that post.
AirKingNeo5 votesThey game shouldn't be balanced around tiers of play that aren't the highest level of competition. You are giving a lower quality product if you do so.
DuskDaUmbreon1 votesYou are gold, correct?
Does that then mean Riot should let a champion stomp the shit out of Gold, solely because it's not the highest tier?
AirKingNeo4 votesYes, it is my job as a gold player to improve past that champion.
At the highest level, there is near 0 room to improve, so a champion being strong there is the definition of overpowered.
DoktorKaiser1 votesBy that logic Yasuo should have been deleted years ago , because from what I see any half decent Yasuo stomps bronze players and especially newcomers, not to mention that he is always viable in high elo because he has no weaknesses when played to full potential. Let's just face it, Garen and especially Yorick were nerfed because their playerbase is non existent and nobody gives a fuck while a nerf to fuckboy like Yasuo would cause waves upon waves of fanboys shitting on RIOT. Also he sells skins, Yorick sure as hell doesn't.
Stephenizgod2 votesBronze don't want Garen winning their games single-handedly any more than pros want Ryze winning them single-handedly.
Bronze players getting stomped by Garen is because they are bad, high elo players getting stomped by Ryze is because he is too strong. Those are so completely different scenarios that the fact you tried to use them as a comparison proves you don't understand balance.
Anyone who isn't Bronze can take almost any champion and dominate Bronze players with it, often the easier a champion is to play the easier the counterplay but even the easiest of counterplays is beyond most Bronze players. So an easy champion like Garen can be picked up without any prior experience and appear dominant.
That is not an issue with the champion, that is an issue with the skill level of that elo. However Garen is just an example, I do believe he needed nerfs he is a champion balanced around his E, but was abusing his Q max. This is part of what made him so oppressive, the Q being safe and his E just not dealing enough damage. Yorick on the otherhand was dominating because of 2 factors: 1) he was never popular so people didn't know how he worked and 2) the Top lane meta at the time favored his playstyle. He was nerfed because Bronze players barely know how to farm CS let alone kill 3-4 Mist Walkers. Plus he made it into Pro play and it was noted that he is boring to watch.
Hammermancer2 votesFair i guess
Sharpest glasses1 votes
Somber Rites3 votesYorick and Garen getting nerfed have nothing to do with each other or the buff to Darius. Yes I disagree with the buff, but Yorick and Garen deserved their nerfs.
I may be a tad biased, but just because Yorick smashes people who play like apes doesn't mean he needs nerfs.
Also, Garen's nerf wasn't even nerfing where he's a problem. They took 20 damage off of his Q AT MAX RANK. Yeah, because that matters.
Meanwhile, Yorick last hitting 3 or 4 minions with Q, landing an skillshot and THEN getting poke is smashing bronze, so they need to gut his early game trading potential even though he has a massive amount of setup and has to land a skillshot to do any of it.
Makes ZERO sense to balance anything around the bottom of the ladder. Least of all a champion like Yorick who is next to worthless against people who actually know how to play the game.
And then Darius and Fiora get buffed even though they do the exact same thing in low elo.
I'm mad.
CHEWYARMS1 votesYeah the nerf was absolutely terrible.
All they needed to do was nerf his Q damage so he wouldn't pound through towers as fast.
But instead they destroy his early trading despite having so much set up.
Ashe mage AD8 votesBuffing Darius it's an indirect nerf to Garen rofl xD
wildfox9T1 votesjust pick 
top and...wait nvm,now he's a walking minion
Sharpest glasses1 votesGaren was nerfed ????
Sexy Jack Rabbit1 voteslike 30 damage off his Q at least rank or somthing.
Critmaster Garen3 votes[{quoted}](name=Sharpest glasses,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ppBAiWRT,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-09-27T01:33:29.451+0000)
Garen was nerfed ????
it wasnt horrible, but it was still dumb. yorick too for absolutely no reason.
Sharpest glasses1 votesI think he deal too much... but they should address grasp first.
BeatzBoyFTW1 votesIt makes sense if they just buff his E, but buffing W is just out of my mind. Like oh boy, I love getting my health chunked even more by a Sheen built Darius as a squishy champion.
Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votesTbf Darius is a lot easier to deal with then those 2, but he's considerably more oppressive when ahead.
Slim Gragas1 votesGaren is still doing fine, hopefully in a balanced state but honestly who knows cause right now theres so many broken champions that he could just be waiting for his time again since i'd say he isn't as good as Sion or Irelia. Hes still quite braindead with how tanky he becomes quickly and just runs you down, trades are useless against him as he heals it back if it isn't really early game. Darius didn't need a buff they are off their rocker he already had a high ban/playrate.
Jaspers1 votesWhat is more interesting to watch? A Darius running at the enemy team and getting a Penta with a reseting ult or Yorick taking turrets and winning the game by split push?
You know Yorick is a natural counter to Darius as well as he's not a auto reliant champ therefore can't take out the ghouls quickly? You know we also won't see Yorick at all at worlds even if Darius is picked.
AggressiveWolf1 votesI pick Darius because hes fun. All these buffs do is make him perma-banned T_T.
On a serious note Darius needed buffs, but buffing his damage was QUITE LITERALLY the worst way to help him out. I generally just wanted more survivability.
Make his Q heal 15% instead of 12%, or buffing his base magic resist. NEVER ONCE have I played Darius and thought, 'fuck, wish I had more damage to win that fight'. NEVER. AND IVE OTP'D DARIUS FOR A YEAR NOW.
stone the blacks1 votesThank god i'm slowly loosing interest, once my friends do so as well will be done with this shit of a game, this patch they literally took problems people and with the game and made them bigger! they do not care about the casual player experience one bit only LC$ big flashy plays. DAMAGE IS TOO FUCKING HIGH BUILDING TANK DOES LITERALLY NOTHING TOWER DIE IF YOU LOOK IN THEIR GENERAL DIRECTION SO MANY CHAMPIONS HAVE RANDOM ASPECTS TO THEIR KIT ITEMS ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE CHAMPION fuck this
