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Swain's ultimate is not a upgrade of his old one.

Oakleaf Ranger··58 votes·4,820 views

To try and resolve these problems, we moved the transformation ability to Swain’s ultimate and gated it behind a longer cooldown. Increasing the cooldown meant we could add a lot more power into the ability. Now, Swain no longer needs a certain number of souls to transform.

Well first let me point out that the last statement purely false. He needs at least one soul fragment to transform.

Lets just make a list and see how they compare.

  1. Effect Radius a. Old: 700 b. New:650

  2. Cool Down (both static) a. Old: 20 seconds b. New: 120 seconds

  3. Max Drain Targets a. Old: Up to 5 with a one second cool down per target b. New: Up to 3 damaged per second

  4. Damage a. Old: 50/70/90 with 20% AP scaling b. New: 30/50/65 with 14.165% AP scaling

  5. Healing (champions) a. Old: 20/30/40 with 12% AP scaling b. New: 20/35/50 with 16% AP scaling

  6. Healing (non champions) a. Old: 8/11/13 with 3% AP scaling b. New: reduced by 80% of champion heal value

  7. Cost a. Old: 25 Mana Per Second + 5 Per Additional Second b. New: Requires at least one soul fragment

  8. Cast time a. Old: none (toggle) b. New: .25 cast time

Miscellaneous

New ultimate grants Swain 150/275/400 bonus health after casting ultimate

New ultimate can be recasted to active Demonflare after restoring 125/300/450 health

  • Does 45/60/75 damage for each soul fragment (up to 5) with 27% AP scaling on each fragment for a potential of 135% AP scaling.

Conclusion

Swain's ultimate recieved a substancial cool down increase yet the power is relatively the same and arguably was made weaker. Swain got swindled in the ultimate change and defintely needs more buffs and/or shifts in power within it.

My theory is some Demacian scumbag got involved with his rework and cheated him out the ultimate he deserves.

60 Comments

Deathhawk88883 votes

But remember that Swain is completely different, and can do stuff Iike do a root/yank combo, which gives you your soul fragment to use your ult. Additionally, old Swain ‘s ult drained mana faster than South Africa drains its water supply

JPLangley54 votes

[deleted]

LatetotheRace11 votes

It's savage, but relevant asf right now. XD Stupid wasteful commies.

Hèntaî 3 votes

No chill

Pierce The Veal8 votes

{quoted}

But remember that Swain is completely different, and can do stuff Iike do a root/yank combo, which gives you your soul fragment to use your ult. Additionally, old Swain ‘s ult drained mana faster than South Africa drains its water supply

But he could build 2 mana items and bam he’s instantly stronger than today’s Swain with 2 items.

Mimr8 votes

{quoted}

But he could build 2 mana items and bam he’s instantly stronger than today’s Swain with 2 items.

Pre-rework Swains' potential DPS was much lower that the current iteration. Archangels/ Ludens + Zhonya's + Transcendence means your Q has a 1.5 second CD from 15-20 minutes onward. And with your E-pull combo combined with Phase Rush it actually takes a significant amount of resources to get away from you. Combine with R's health drain + bonus health + DoT field and you have a top-tier duelist. And with a 5-shard Demon Flare + Q you even have a solid finisher.

You have to see the two R's in relation to the rest of Swains' kit. R may have had less of new Swains' total power budget allotted to it but especially thanks to the health bonus it glues Swains' kit together better than the old one ever could because it allows you to stay stuck in for repeated Q casts that much longer. It also gives Swain much clearer windows of power allowing for both more skill expression from the Swain player as well as a better chance for his opponents to take advantage of him when its on CD (old Swain was basically immortal and anti-fun as hell when ahead up till the 30-35 minute mark).

Hibeki1 votes

Except that its basically single target damage and you have to consistently be in melee range.

Its still garbo.

Mimr1 votes

{quoted}

Except that its basically single target damage and you have to consistently be in melee range.

Its still garbo.

  • Old Swain Q and E (his main damage sources besides R) were also singletarget.
  • Add Rylai's + Approach Velocity, problem solved.
Pierce The Veal1 votes

You... do realize he went from killing entire teams to being single target? He went from having a ton of sustain to basically none? I mean, I find the new swain exciting as well, but at least now it’s not stronger than the old swain. And it doesn’t fill the same role that old Swain did.

TwitchInMyPants2 votes

{quoted}

But he could build 2 mana items and bam he’s instantly stronger than today’s Swain with 2 items.

TBH this is true, you don't even need two. Just CDR runes and RoA is enough to just actively press R and keep yourself around full HP and when you all in you're more often able to commit on kills.

New Swain sometimes gets more kills in teamfights but most of the time you're only able to get off low base damage or the early activation of the R, its often not enough to kill. That's similar to old Swain but old Swain could do this CONSTANTLY and also had DoT threat to get kills with.

I Main Swain3 votes

i was about to comment that myself. also, OP conveniently left out demonflare entirely, which is a HUGE chunk of the new ult's power. that thing nukes the crap out of people on its own

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

Im not really sure what your trying to say. He has to have some means of collecting soul frags otherwise he wouldn’t be able to use ultimate.

You just named a combo of his. Old Swain has combo’s as well E>Q/slow.

New Swain ultimate doesn’t have a mana cost but old Swain ultimate didn’t have a 120 second cool down either. I can pop his ultimate again 20 seconds later with refreshed mana cost.

Divewing2 votes

So what you want is a champion that sits in a team and just deals damage for doing it so long as they have the mana?

Sounds like you could be playing any champion so long as they did it...

Why again does it matter that new Swain doesn't do this?

La Barbotte1 votes

his E wont land unless caught in the max range, otherwise its too slow against someone with a brain

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

But remember that Swain is completely different, and can do stuff Iike do a root/yank combo, which gives you your soul fragment to use your ult. Additionally, old Swain ‘s ult drained mana**_ faster than South Africa drains its water supply_**

GOD DAMN SON!

Teridax6815 votes

I don't think looking at the two abilities in isolation makes for the best comparisons, since both Swains have different kits otherwise, but I still agree that the new ult doesn't feel amazing. More than specific number changes, what bothers me about the new ult is that it sort of pretends to have Swain's old ult somewhere in it, but shifts all of the attention towards a big PBAoE nuke in the end. That component, and burst in general, was never a part of Swain's identity, yet it's now supposed to be his highest moment, more visible than even the transformation itself. This, along with many other factors, I think is why Swain's rework doesn't feel as great as it could've been, because it only kept some bits of his identity as token mechanics, while grafting an entirely new kit on top and focusing his power onto it.

The other issue I take with the ult is that it feels like the corpse of an older, much more elaborate ability, that got hastily repurposed to fit the current kit. Riot talked about how his transformation was at some point put to his E, then given a super-transformation, and so on, and this I think would explain why Swain has this entire separate resource at level 1 just to accommodate one single component of an ultimate ability with a 2-minute cooldown. The fact that there are three separate gates to Demonflare, namely the high cooldown, drain requirement and Soul Fragment scaling, I think is responsible for making the ability, and Swain as a whole, feel a little awkward, since often you end up running around with maximum Soul Fragments and nothing to spend them on.

Because of this, I think it might be better to use the Soul Fragment mechanic and a partial revert to make Swain's transformation the awesome effect it was meant to be from the start: when Swain was initially designed, the intent of his transformation was that he could access this really cool power-up, but would only be able to keep it active if he could get a kill train going with his innate mana restore. The reason this failed wasn't because that gameplay was innately unhealthy, but because mana as a resource can be itemized for, causing him to either not be able to use the ability properly, or just become able to keep it on at all times. A unique resource could solve this.

Concretely, what I'd like to change on Swain's ult is to remove its nuke at the end and its health buffer, but also to remove the ability's cooldown, increase its drain (and have it affect 5 targets at a time, or at least 3/4/5, scaling with rank), and have the transformation be instant (and full, too, so we can have all of Swain's skins give him a demon bird head, not just Tyrant Swain). Instead of powering up Demonflare, Soul Fragments could then instead be used to power the transformation itself, so that consuming a Soul Fragment grants you a few seconds of extra use (and you couldn't transform without Soul Fragments). That way, Swain could go back to his old days of having a toggle ult, except this time it would be completely gated by how well he plays, and so would allow him to become significantly scarier if he can get the Swain Train rolling, and more vulnerable otherwise.

Kiryu6 votes

Really, I think the kit just needs some fine tuning. The Q cost early levels is way too much for what's meant to be a farming/waveclear tool, his W's delay needs to be reduced from 2.5 secs to maybe 2 secs or maybe 2.25. I know it's getting changes on the PBE but as much as a larger radius sounds nice, it doesn't change the fact that it's easily telegraphed and dodge-able. His E is ok but I do think it either needs to let me choose when it explodes or just simply explode on first target hit. The ulti is a big issue in that I just think for what it does, its extremely slow and conditional. The damage at five demonflare stacks is pretty good but I think you shouldn't require them to activate. Possibly make it so no stacks does zero damage but at least let the Swain activate it.

VelvetCrotch4 votes

ah, forgot this! his mana costs are absurd. just nerf his Q-CD and buff his mana and mana reg.

Wolfeur2 votes

his W's delay needs to be reduced from 2.5 secs to maybe 2 secs

The delay is 1.5 sec…

Malignis2 votes

I mostly play Swain support so I don't have much of an input on his Q.

The W however I find to be extremely nice the way it's been iterated. It just isn't a poke skill but it's incredibly useful in other regards. Using it to scout out areas is incredibly helpful since the delay on the cast gives you vision for a nice time. It's also amazing in teamfights where people either don't notice it and get chunked, or make sure to move around it and waste time with their positioning. I've also found it to be an amazing zoning tool to cut off escape routes from people fleeing or finish off stragglers who think they are quick enough to get through it. I also think people are too harsh on the delay. If you land his E and place the W in front of them and then pull, they can't avoid it unless they have a dash or flash away.

The E is honestly my favourite ability. Once you play him enough and learn the max range it's pretty easy to always land it. You just need to be aware that the first target hit on the return is the one that gets snared, so don't cast it when they have minions behind them. I find a lot of the time people tend to feel safe when they see one or two minions behind them but if you just adjust your position before firing you can catch them unaware and get some really nice combos off.

In terms of the ultimate I've also found it to feel kind of lackluster. The health drain doesn't really feel like it helps you stay alive very long and at least old swain could reliably slow/snare enemies in the entire area around him to delay damage long enough for him to heal. When you're fighting a melee opponent you can't really land the snare easily since they can sidestep it on the return without any effort and because of the delay on the W you can't reliably use it to buy time. Since the burst damage component is locked behind the health drain, it means that if you can't stay alive and peel for yourself long enough you can't even utilize it. It also seems to have a casting animation so often you can click it and die before the animation goes off which is always very frustrating. I think what I'd like to see is that the soul fragments would determine the bonus health you get during the ability but the damage would always stay the same. That way it would still be useful at all fragment levels but it would also help you stay alive better if you invested time in gathering fragments before a fight. Perhaps they could also make it so that if the burst part of the ultimate is available it would cast on death, but I feel that may remove the counterplay that the animation delay is there to create.

That's just my 2 cents on things but I definitely encourage people to spend as much time as they can on a new/reworked champ to really get your own feel for them. I tend to wait until I have mastery 7 on the champion before I pass judgement on how the kit feels and although I wasn't a fan of Swain's new kit at first, it's probably the rework I've enjoyed the most since figuring it all out ^.^

PePsiLemoNN5 votes

Yeah let's ignore the other 3 abilities + passive that are totally different from the old ones

DeusVult5 votes

Yes old swain ult is better when only comparing the precise part of the old ult that match up to the new ult, but the increased power budget is in the:

  1. No mana cost
  2. Bonus health on cast. This better allows Swain to dive in and not be destroyed.
  3. Ability to nuke with the ult end cast. Even if it doesnt happen all that much, it still gives the possibility of it. (IMO it needs to be easier to land the second cast, atm you will never hit a 4-5 man ult second cast, ever.)

You almost flat out ignore the monumental changes to the ult that they implemented in favor of talking about how you miss the old swain ult. Which is ok, but its gone now.

PopePancake2 votes

{quoted}

Yes old swain ult is better when only comparing the precise part of the old ult that match up to the new ult, but the increased power budget is in the:

  1. No mana cost
  2. Bonus health on cast. This better allows Swain to dive in and not be destroyed.
  3. Ability to nuke with the ult end cast. Even if it doesnt happen all that much, it still gives the possibility of it. (IMO it needs to be easier to land the second cast, atm you will never hit a 4-5 man ult second cast, ever.)

You almost flat out ignore the monumental changes to the ult that they implemented in favor of talking about how you miss the old swain ult. Which is ok, but its gone now.

Honestly, even with the bonus HP i feel i die way easier then Old Swain.

Oakleaf Ranger3 votes

It gained power in some areas but lost a tremendous amount in others.

  1. Sure his ultimate has no mana cost now but it came with the price of an additional 80 seconds on the ultimate.

  2. Without taking into account AP scaling, when placed in each others ideal scenario at rank 1 (5 champions for old and 3 for New) Old Swain out heals New Swain at 4 seconds in. This is also taking into account the bonus health from New Swain as well.

In a 1v1 with just minions around Old Swain out heals at 7 seconds

.3. New Swain does indeed have a (conditional) burst ability that Old Swain doesn't. However the trade off is that New Swain lost a considerable amount of DPS from his ultimate for that.

I may not have touched upon a lot of the new features but I didn't ignore them. The net power change Swain got with his new ultimate was overall a negative.

DeusVult1 votes

They wanted new Swain ult to have a larger power ceiling in certain team fight settings rather than just a generalist feel for when you had been poked out in lane.

The no mana issue is actually huge, as old ult had both an initial cost and was a HUGE drain. An OOM swain was useless, an it forced you into early mana items 100% of the time.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

no offense, but WTF that's every mage's first itemization.

Just like every mage, you have to learn to manage your mana. ROA combined Swain's old passive meant Swain didn't suffer from mana issues when managed properly.

JPLangley4 votes

[deleted]

Agomoto5 votes

You do realize you have to get them in the radius to do so and even then you need to drain a certain amount of health to do so which you rarely do before either everyone leaves or two they all jump on you before it can even activate you can't even reliably to a zhonya combo since they will just get out wait it out just outside your radius and hop on you after it is laughable really.

even in five stack and I've played him a lot is ridiculously underpowered especially if you just have too and a second item the only time it does amazing damage is late game but who goes in late game and you forget most champs are doing ridiculous dmg then too so you surviving the duration is almost impossible and that's me fed like who are you trying to lie to? We all play this champs even pros say he is under powered like how is anyone trying to argue otherwise?!?!?

He is basically a q bot which isn't reliable poke and the rest is lack luster like I've legit planned things to a T and still can get out played with the simplest of issues such as a wave or a enemy champ decides to stand slightly behind the target you through your demon hand at for goodness sakes you don't even have a reliable slow to kite it's is disheartening to think they thought this was going to be an effective kit on him the only thing you can argue is his pull but that is only done effectively with your team and is at best a mild annoyance every 6 or 8 secs I forget the cooldown on it. So no I'm sorry I do not agree.

Muzét3 votes

Old: 8/11/13 with 3% AP scaling b. New: reduced by 80% of champion heal value

So the comparison can be better: New: 4/7/10 + 3.2% AP Scaling.

SzGamer2273 votes

The new ult does more damage to drained targets, moves some of the heal-over-time to up-front health, has a huge nuke tacked on to make up for affecting fewer targets with the drain, and costs no mana. That is significantly more powerful overall.

RainbowIcee3 votes

His ult has too many requirements for an ult that's not even THAT strong. It is strong don't get me wrong but not strong as in do a whole fucking quest to use it strong. Plus to make it work better you need to use it on multiple people during lane phase this is just annoying.

GrReaper963 votes

I just wish the soul fragmenst have better function outside his ultimate, cause they feel rather awkward just being totally useless for a whole minute or so. Like perhaps every fragment he has grants him additional ms or health regen or whatever. Just something.

Brothardir1 votes

Agreed.

What if his ultimate had no cooldown but was instead completely reliant on soul fragments? Each soul fragment could offer something like 2-3 seconds of use and they could still be stacked for a longer, more powerful ultimate. Obviously some number balancing would be needed but I feel something like that would go a long way for making soul fragments have more meaningful interaction. It would be a great way to retain a big part of what made old Swain unique by allowing him to manage how frequently he uses his ultimate once again.

Ahri Baka2 votes

I miss it how I could clear waves with the 20 seconds ult until I run out of mana and recall I miss it how I could tank a lot with the Old Swain and how I double kill the junlger and his laner when I get ganked Sweet Old Days

LordGeovanni2 votes

While new swain's ult is not an upgrade its arguably a down grade but it was removing power from the toxic part of his kits? drain healing for standing / walking around. while giving the rest of his kit a 3x multiplier for a slight ult nerf in sustain and sutained damage through the ult but also compensated in the ult itself with the burst at the end.

Shrek Luigi2 votes

That's a good thing.

The old Swane Mane used to be balanced entirely around his R prior to the rework--another champion of the controversial drain-tank variety--and changing it opens up power in the rest of his kit. He would fluctuate between being 'unbearable to play against' and being 'pitifully weak', and these changes were needed to bring him to middle-ground for balance's sake.

Violet Fields2 votes

How many times do I have to explain it to people:

Stop building Swain like this: item 3027 item 3151 item 3065 item 3157 item 3116 item 3111

Build Swain like this: item 3003 item 3102 item 3157 item 3151 item 3089 item 3020

Rod of ages doesn't heal his ultimate anymore since it no longer casts mana and you're meant to spam his Q and that's a whole lot better with 40% CDR rather than 20% CDR. Damn, this is the exact same thing people told me about the new Urgot, except Swain has a significantly larger fan base so people don't listen.

GrReaper961 votes

I agree on item 3003 (or item 3285 ) Swain but i kinda feel hes much more squishy this way. Considering he has very short range and he heals ONLY with his ultimate or when someone else dies unlike Vladimir i believe he should have slightly better base stats compared to live.

Meep Man1 votes

Replace Rabadon's for a Rylai's in my opinion. It synergizes heavily with his Q and R, while also bolstering his defenses further. You sacrifice damage, but unless your team is already full of slows and CC, the increased ability to kite and chase is worth it.

Malcha2 votes

I kinda just miss all the cool looking birdshit in his kit. I feel like he was way more thematically together.

Also, I miss being giant sustain drainy birdman on demand. =/

Pika Fox1 votes

Just of note; the excerpt you took was in relation to swain's in house rework, not pre rework swain.

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

The Demonflare doesn't really have a 27% AP scaling, it has a 27% AP scaling per AP fragment. So technically it has 135% AP ratio at 5 stacks.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

fixed, thx

LordBrasca1 votes

The only thing that i don't like regarding the new swain ult is the fact that i have to wait until about the end of it to reactivate it... i'm not saying to give us the ability to reactivate it immediately or almost immediately but to at least shorten the window by a bit.

Except this little thing i love pretty much everything else.

Wild Geese1 votes

Idea: 15/20/25% movespeed and tenacity bonus.

ZaneShadow1 votes

Well, this is a good argument, but I do think that it doesn't account for all the power put into his Q. In term's of damage, that sucker more than compensates for any lost in the ult late game. Spamming that at close range on a 1.7s cooldown kills pretty much anything.

I think they also limited the number he could drain health/damage do to the gap that could create between high and low play. Low play, no one both Grievous wounds, and can't cordinate to kill the guy standing in the MIDDLE OF 5 PEOPLE. In no world should any champion short of a giga-tank be that close to 5 champs and not insta-die as a result. But hitting three people means you could be positioned agressively and get the full benefits.

Cooldown: It surves two purposes in my mind. 1. prevent's low ranked players from wasting small # of souls not accounting for how powerful deamon flare is at full stacks. 2. prevent a swain that just smashed one fight from picking up all the souls and litterally doing the same thing again in 20 seconds. its kind of a doomsday situation, but at the same point, melee's have to appreciate that gap in power swain has where they can actually lane against him.

Non-champion healing: Okay I'm with you on this one. having someone root/flash me leaving me low on health and now an ultimate I cant stop from consuming my soul fragments, I really wish it let me heal up a bit more on minions. I loose lane pressure and have to fight for my soul stacks back it they ever manage to disengage me, I feel like getting my health back would be a marvelous way to compensate me. Plus in a 1v1 fight, I get smashed early hard enough their buffing Swain next patch, so I doubt that me healing a bit more off minions would break his kit.

I think you make a good argument, but I do love the new Swain (minus his hair. Keep telling myself it's okay, but it just keeps giving me a pause). I hope the new buffs to his Q and W make him strong enough that he can defend himself through the early game with passive play and reliably get soul fragment's for the remainder of the game. Though if these buffs don't prove enough (which would very much surprise me) you may get your wish of more ult buffs, since I doubt the rest of hit kit could be balanced with any more power put into it early. Id see it probably increased damage than anything else, since more sustain will just force him into Spirit Visage for tank Swain, vs. the mid lane presence they want to keep alive. Lower CD is a bad idea since it's really not the limiting factor of it, more how quickly he can stack souls.

Meep Man1 votes

Are we really dismissing an AoE 375 (+135% AP) magic damage nuke when it comes to overall power level? As well as making it require no mana? As well as the fact that this Swain's non-ultimate kit is MUCH more reliable and powerful.

SpongebobIsLife2 votes

but you have to wait for it...and enemie can just cc u and run away or straight up just run away, you only have one cc ability and it's gated behind a long cd. (im not counting w bc an anemy with tier 1 boots can just walk over it).

lolipopevelynn1 votes

i told people that on release swains new ult is a blatant nerf of his old ult and i got mass downvoted lol. doesnt take a scientist to figure that out, but for some reason people without PBE accounts just refuse to see facts presented to them.

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