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Scarra's Thoughts on Reddit (and Boards by extent) Balance

ModCaptainMårvelous··19 votes·2,492 views

Specifically at 38:04.

To quote Scarra:

"I think people who complain about these champions (Yasuo, Kalista, etc.) are garbage. I think- I'm gonna be real with you. Every single week I look at Reddit and just see people talk about champion balance and I'm just like "thank god these people don't balance the game" because they would be god awful. Every week people are like "Dude, look at this guy (CT), he made Yasuo. This designer knows how to make champions but he only knows how to make champions that are fun on the champion side, not the playing against side". It's like "Are you serious?". People can't beat it, they don't want to think about how to beat it and it may be harder to be certain champions with other champions."

"Because of that, people just complain all the time about all these champions. You guys are just not good players. [...] If you complain about a champion and it's not completely out of left field or complete BS like pre-nerf-nerf Zoe or Ornn? You're probably just complaining because you don't want to learn how to play against it."

Thoughts?

EDIT: Contacted Scarra about it and got his thoughts on the subject:

https://twitter.com/scarra/status/952758821365018626 https://twitter.com/scarra/status/952759857509122050

Mind you, please do not flame Scarra for having this PoV. If you disagree with him/his view, explain why in a manner that can be argued.

80 Comments

Tonyob2015 votes

Well then who says pre nerf nerf zoe was op? Or ornn? Who decides when a champ is completely left field? I think vayne's kit is retardedly left field but everyone disagrees with me. Well she's got a 20% play rate of adcs and a 55% winrate. The fuck you saying vayne isn't left field, the bitch is insane.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=ADC&sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend

Handin Out Naps4 votes

He literally said in the video that Vayne should never be a top adc. He never once said stats dont matter he was talking about people complaining about stupid stuff like Yasuo. And high elo players can tell when champs are too strong. They use their skill of the game to look for counterplay and if there is none or a lack of they can see that the champ is too strong.
Also Vayne's kit isnt broken in reality it is easily beaten by stronger laners. Sadly with the overheal, targons meta she doesnt really get shit on, and she is very good vs tanks.

Ahristocats2 votes

Exactly when i play against yasuo i immediatly understand what i should do to destroy him When i play against ornn there is nothing i can do, this dude's laning is retarded as hell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2fQ4JIuOXg

he can miss W and E and still kill you in few seconds

that's the difference between a champion like yasuo who's well designed, has counterplay to a busted champion like ornn who can faceroll you without anything you can do

Nyarlathοtep

Why did you engage him when he clearly has the advantage? He has tabi and bramble. Trying to trade with him is dangerous. Tho there is something really weird. His q hits harder than usual. And dont go calling yasuo well designed, when in lane he chooses when to engage and when not. Or the fact that his ulti puts him out of turret range. Or that he has no cds or mana. At least ornn mana costs and cds.

Ahristocats3 votes

Choosing when to engage or not is not something specific to Yasuo, nor is something bad i don't see how a champion refusing to engage becomes a bad design kek

Also i was not playing aatrox and second riot already said that the counter to something being "being elsewhere" is not healthy the counter to ornn shouldn't be "don't go in" the counter to ornn should be dodging his spells but it doesn't matter because the champion is stupid as fuck and can kill you without hitting them

{quoted}

At least ornn mana costs and cds.

if he can kill you while missing spells i'm sure it doesn't matter at all if he doesn't cast them

Also Yasuo has cds in laning phase Also Yasuo not having mana cost doesn't matter anymore because it's been 4 years and since 4 years he got balanced around being manaless

You want to say that Ornn is balanced around having mana costs, but Ornn is not balanced in the first place kek

Nyarlathοtep

Choosing when to engage or not is not something specific to Yasuo, nor is something bad i don't see how a champion refusing to engage becomes a bad design kek

Indeed its not unique to yasuo. Fizz, riven, fiora, kata and some others have this ability. And the problem with controlling the possibility of having a trade is that he can do it again and again and again. Most other champs cant because they have cds.

and second riot already said that the counter to something being "being elsewhere" is not healthy

I dont recall talking about that. If something we are on the same page when it comes down that.

the counter to ornn should be dodging his spells

Indeed which is why i said weird. He had sheen tho thats why he dealt so much dmg with his aa despite missing 2 w's.

Also Yasuo has cds in laning phase

You mean his w has cd. The rest of his skills have low cd. His q has 4 sc ( going down with atk speed ) his e has 0.5 ( and on target cd ) and his r has only 80. I cant understand where are his cds of which you speak of. Again minus his w the rest are always almost up.

Also Yasuo not having mana cost doesn't matter anymore because it's been 4 years and since 4 years he got balanced around being manaless

While i was around when yasuo got released, i was too noob or rather ignorant? I dont know, lets just say i didnt mind facing this abomination. Now when i see yasuo i feel like suiciding just because i cant just his stupid kit. Or the fact that its only limit is the players stupidity. You know, you dont outplay a yasuo, a yasuo outplays himself. Thats just wrong on many levels. And with him having no costs means he doesnt have to worry about cost management. He only has to worry about the usual stuff ( map, champ lvls, etc) and his e tho that isnt difficult since they have an indicator ( which his enemies cant see for some reason ).

You want to say that Ornn is balanced around having mana costs, but Ornn is not balanced in the first place kek

I cant see how the fk ornn is unbalanced. Unfun might be true, but op? How? Even statistics prove that he is balanced. His winrate according to opgg is just 48.79%. Rengar has 52.81%. Singed has 52.05%. Jax has 50.52%. And hell even garen has 50.36%. How ornn is broken when all these have higher winrate? Again unfun=/= broken.

Ahristocats1 votes

ye sure thing, ornn is balanced which is why he's being nerfed in next patch

it's just as scarra said, i'm happy that it's not the boards/reddit that balances the game

Ornn is disgusting and riot knows it Yasuo's laning phase is shit and i don't get how him not engaging the laning phase makes him unhealthy His 4 Q has 4 sec cd which is high considering that the only thing it does is an autoattack that takes 1 sec to be done in early game which deals 20 bonus damage it can knock up but that's every 12 sec

AirKingNeo14 votes

Reddit doesn't talk balance at all. When's the last time there was an actual balance discussion thread on the front page? They have too much censorship against them.

Besides, he's just making the video to run on the 'low elo idiots' circlejerk and claim superiority. Doesn't actually consider the validity of claims and instead says the premises is biased. Being biased doesn't invalidate an opinion.

Ralanr8 votes

There are balance discussions in Reddit, but they don't form out of threads designed for them. They start in the comments and go from there.

And being biased does kinda invalidate an opinion as you're showcasing that you are unlikely to view the other side of the argument fairly. If you are admitting you are biased, it makes things a bit more fair.

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

I don't think Reddit has outright balance discussions in the way boards goes "XYZ or ABC needs a nerf" but, rather, discussing in stuff like PBE updates or major game posts. I think the other thing that Reddit does is rather than have giant, broad, generalized comments about the game state like you see on boards? They focus more on a singular pain point/problem they feel is in the game.

Take this post for example. If this was a boards thread, discussions about AP itemization would also spill over into comparing itemizations with other classes, what AP items are good/bad currently, etc. Reddit just sort of focuses on one key point and builds on that where as every boards post goes into the balance ecosystem.

Again, just my thought. I don't really go on reddit.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

He says bruiser/fighter have good itemization. Stopped reading there knowing again why reddit is even worse than boards. "Mages have to build the same thing every game". Meanwhile bruiser item 3078 item 3053 item 3748 or item 3071 item 3053 item 3748

AirKingNeo1 votes

and then Omen and Adaptive. 95% take Tabi.

Daunt1 votes

Well would you look at that. The reason why Riot doesn't listen to the boards. And they shouldn't. Boards are just an echo chamber full of toxicity and people refusing to acknowledge someone else's opinion because they're completely biased and think that only they know what's good for the game. As scarra says, thank god those people are not on the balance team. Even now looking through the comments, people are actually denying the fact that a lot of players are just complaining because they are bad and refuse to get better. These boards would be a nicer place if people would, instead of complaining, ask better players how to win versus certain champions instead. Or simply ask for someone else's opinion about a certain subject rather than making a rant post denying anything that doesn't come close to the persons opinion.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Because you don't win if a champion is better than you most of the time.

Daunt1 votes

If a champion is completely broken then yes, you won't win as much. Even then though you can play around them it's just harder. But if x champion is busted cause you keep losing to it and isn't broken, there's a problem with you and not the champion.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

I find it funny when they say these champs are completely fine you are just bad ALSO in regards to kalista who is always 100% ban in pro play whenever she is close to be viable. Such a good champ design pro players just can't play around her, fuckin idiots amirite? Then i look up QTs chowdog and his most played champ is kalista. I WONDER WHY HE THINKS KALISTA IS A FINE DESIGN. I also know a lot of high elo players who passionately hate yasuo are they just bad players despite being higher ranked than scarra? Scarra is a mid main, yasuo is way easier to deal with as a mage compared to a toplane bruiser especially the once with archaic kits who cannot deal with his mobility and range poke.

I'm one of those who usually say, yes a high elo player will know more about balance and his opinions should be taken more into account than a silver player who only plays 100 games a season despite that they are also open to bias obviously.

Besides i couldn't give a rat's ass about yasuo,yes i hate that champ with a passion because it's a chore to play against him i also hate to lane against my main GP if i can't counterpick him but what really pisses me off is claiming a factual nightmare of a design like kalista is okay people are just bad at the game???? Even if the reasons between pro play and soloQ might be different as to why kalista is broken it's pretty rare that champs when they are good are broken both in soloQ AND pro play. Kalista has that questionable honor among azir and ryze. I mean thematically alone her kit makes absolutely zero sense at all besides maybe that she uses a spear and can throw it with Q.

AirKingNeo1 votes

I play Kalista and I think she's terrible design.

Ralanr12 votes

No one likes admitting they are wrong and find it easier to find fault in others, whether the fault is actually there or not.

This does not mean talks about balance discussion are always reaching wrong conclusions or ideas, but (imo) most of the time people seem to be more focused on making themselves right over getting the right answer. They want to win the argument, not solve it.

I'm as guilty as anyone of this. It's natural.

vgamedude10 votes

So stats and the like don't matter? Just Scarra's seemingly random personal claim of something being op or not? Based on what?

Jet Sett5 votes

Well clearly since he's a better player than you he knows more about balance than you do. In fact, he's in the finals for the tourney choosing the next lead game designer. /s

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

I'm actually not sure what Scarra's thought process is here, which is why I wanted to see how boards reacted to it.

What I -think- he's trying to say (and I can't be sure because I ain't Scarra) is that the knee-jerk reaction to losing against something is "God damn this is OP, it should be nerfed" rather than learning to play against it. Which, in turn, fosters this idea that these champions need to be nerfed, deleted or otherwise to fix it. It's also worth noting that Scarra plays the game at a higher level, which could mean that he's focusing too much on the top-tier of balance rather than what feels good for all.

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

So stats and the like don't matter? Just Scarra's seemingly random personal claim of something being op or not? Based on what?

Then it might interest you to know that, statistically, Yasuo for example is not OP.

vgamedude1 votes

{quoted}

Then it might interest you to know that, statistically, Yasuo for example is not OP.

Then it might interest you to know that I wasn't talking about Yasuo nor is that the only champ he allegedly mentioned according to op.

Daddy Ants8 votes

"You're probably just complaining because you don't want to learn how to play against it."

Yasuo Twitch Tristana Vayne Syndra Rengar

Salron1 votes

Only one of those is a CT champion though

Abibyama7 votes

Scarra should pay a visit to the boards

DestructoDave6 votes

You can't expect everyone to be challenger tier. Just becuase the top 1% of players can deal with a champ's kit, doesn't mean the answer for the other 99% is "git gud." The reason people complain about these champs is because of how forgiving and hard to punish they are in your average player's game. Those players matter, too. This game isn't built on the top 250 players; LCS isn't popular because 200 people play it. Its popular because all the bronze and silver players watch it. If you have kits that average players just cannot generally overcome, then there is something wrong with those kits. Especially if they are also easy to abuse/use by the champion player themselves. And thats the real issue here.

I really don't like when people that high up talk down to the average playerbase like the solution is just get gud and you can deal. Not everyone can get good. Not everyone will reach diamond or plat. So I guess those players are just in the dust.

Bottom line is, if you have a champ that the average playerbase STILL can't play around their kit, then something is wrong. Things need tweaked. The game has to make sense for all players, not just the top 1%.

Penns5 votes

Why not tho? If x guy is silver and doesnt play the game on a very high level yet, why should balance be changed around what they can and cant deal with? Because thats how u make money of course but thats not how it should be.

DestructoDave2 votes

{quoted}

Why not tho? If x guy is silver and doesnt play the game on a very high level yet, why should balance be changed around what they can and cant deal with? Because thats how u make money of course but thats not how it should be.

Because there has to be a medium there. You can't have the game balanced around the 1%. Thats the real trick to balancing and designing games and champions. That it works for every type of player. Those champions do exist, meaning it is possible. I think the real issue with some of these champs is they are not that hard to play either, which compounds the problem of dealing with them. If they were as hard to do well on as they were to deal with, then there wouldn't be an issue. But they arent designed that way. They have forgiving mechanics to help the players of the champ, but they dont have forgiving ways to deal with them. Its one-sided. Of course top players can deal, but its a stretch expecting 99% of the playerbase to have the skills to deal.

Penns5 votes

But if a champ gets nerfed or reworked Fizz item 3070 for low elo, chances are they arent gonna be good in higher elo. So if you want to play one of those, there is nothing you can do about it. Meanwhile if you cant deal with them, you could just look up how to do it and improve. That or you just dont complain about balance and accept it.

Ahristocats4 votes

oh wow, that's exactly what i said 1 year ago

but it doesn't matter, people won't listen to you low elo can improve to get to high elo high elo cannot become worse at the game and go to low elo to be able to play fizz

NemeBro4 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=poTtByu7,comment-id=00100000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-15T09:36:02.644+0000)

oh wow, that's exactly what i said 1 year ago

but it doesn't matter, people won't listen to you low elo can improve to get to high elo high elo cannot become worse at the game and go to low elo to be able to play fizz

This is the most important and best post in the thread, and is what people should take from it and won't.

A bad player can improve and become good at the game, and understand how to play against, say, Yasuo.

But a good player can't nearly as easily make a bad champion work when playing against other good characters, which Yasuo mains would have to do if he was nerfed for low elo players.

The purpose of playing a game is to improve at it. Games are meant to be about practicing a myriad of skills until you can accomplish an objective, in this case climbing and winning games in high elo. Why should things that bad players struggle against be nerfed so the bad players don't have to leave their comfort zone and accomplish anything?

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

Because there has to be a medium there. You can't have the game balanced around the 1%. Thats the real trick to balancing and designing games and champions. That it works for every type of player. Those champions do exist, meaning it is possible. I think the real issue with some of these champs is they are not that hard to play either, which compounds the problem of dealing with them. If they were as hard to do well on as they were to deal with, then there wouldn't be an issue. But they arent designed that way. They have forgiving mechanics to help the players of the champ, but they dont have forgiving ways to deal with them. Its one-sided. Of course top players can deal, but its a stretch expecting 99% of the playerbase to have the skills to deal.

Yasuo and Kalista are harder than literally every champion you played in season seven with the exception of Gangplank, who you did pretty poorly with in one game.

xelaker5 votes

I sometimes wonder if the top of the skill peeps sound like entitled asshats because there isn't much oxygen up on their high horses.

MOuHahaHAhahaaaa5 votes

League of Legends is the way scarra and streamers make money. Do you really think that they will criticise the game ? if the game falls they won't earn money anymore... Even Pants are Dragon said once on twitch that games are way faster now but didn't give his thoughts about it.

Spank the Fox2 votes

Lmao qtpie always says the balance team is pretty crap/high and slow to change. Even this patch, he said on stream “8.1 fixes nothing in this game, but neither has any of the past patches”

Hashinshin bitches to the point where he’s a meme.

Scarra straight up said to the faces of two Rioters that Dynamic Queue was shit back in S6.

But that’s apparently not critism /whatever.

NemeBro1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spank the Fox,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=poTtByu7,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2018-01-15T01:51:55.743+0000)

Lmao qtpie always says the balance team is pretty crap/high and slow to change. Even this patch, he said on stream “8.1 fixes nothing in this game, but neither has any of the past patches”

Hashinshin bitches to the point where he’s a meme.

Scarra straight up said to the faces of two Rioters that Dynamic Queue was shit back in S6.

But that’s apparently not critism /whatever.

Whoa, an objectively correct post gets downvoted.

You guys are sad tbh.

Spank the Fox1 votes

I’m pretty sure I’m just being downvote stalked lmao.

“Reddit is a censored circlejerk” but then gets immediately downvoted simultaneously on 3 posts.

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

Absolutely.

Players criticize and talk about the game all the time. Take LS for example, a Korean analyst and shoutcaster. His patch rundowns are filled with biting remarks to Riot's balance team. Hell, his last patch rundown had a several minute rant about how Riot's nerf to Zoe was pathetic and accomplished absolutely nothing for the upcoming season.

deadlychuck5 votes

I've always complained about the same champions for the same reasons, that includes a lot of the champions which are considered to be OP, but I personally rarely struggle when I've played against them.

I know how you've got to beat these champions, i understand what their weaknesses are and i can play around those weaknesses. But that doesn't mean that they're fair champions. If i go 5/0 against yasuo in lane as AP varus, then it doesn't matter to me that I won this instance of the exchange, what bothers me is that throughout the whole of the laning phase, i was subject to his whim. He would have to make the engagements, he would have to fail his windwall, he would be the one making the mistake of eating poke while his passive shield was down.

Generally it has to do with tempo. Some champions are designed with so many mechanics and handicaps, relative to other champions, that they always have control over the flow of a fight. Yasuo is an example of this in the mid lane, and while i never really felt kalista was overloaded, other good examples would be thresh (literally 5 years for this one), ekko, camille, kayn, zed, or fiora.

A lot of these champions are given tools tailor made for just about every situation they might find themselves in, but it's on the players of those champions to misuse their extensive tools, rather than on the other player to exploit a flaw in their kit.

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

AP varus

lol

deadlychuck1 votes

I used that example, because i've done it multiple times. Despite it basically being the worst possible match up you could go against yasuo with. 100% windwall blocking. Squishy And immobile

IAintDarius4 votes

Guys let's just ignore stats someone with a shinier badge has an important opinion. Jesus, I've seen people of all elo's complain about random shit it doesnt even matter anymore.

Knalxz4 votes

Scarra is a respected member of the lol community but just because he has an opinion one something doesn't make it right, same goes for all of us, we're just expressing opinions...most of the time.

Other times (obviously) there are facts.

Like when Riot statistically can show that micro-buffs do work or when MM destroys all Riot's logic with that Morde rework.

Here is a fact, Yasuo is a very safe champion with a high amount of built in power. Here is an opinion, Yasuo's hair is stupid.

Remember, just because you're a specialist, analysis or professional doesn't mean you're always right. It means you spend significantly more time on the subject then the vast majority of people. As I'm sure many know there are multiple analysis at their Analysis Desk for a reason. SO perspectives can be fresh and different. If Scarra's thought process was all Riot needed then I don't think they'd be many shout casters in the LCS or any other league.

If one Rioter says that they think a champion is fine but another disagrees then who is right by nature? The logic that Scarra or anyone saying something and being instantly held as true is quickly ruined by someone of equal standing disagreeing with them. Both could be right or wrong but neither of their opinions are more until proved otherwise.

Ahristocats1 votes

{quoted}

Here is a fact, Yasuo is a very safe champion with a high amount of built in power.

no it is bloody not?

yasuo is the champion that dies the most in league of legends he's no where safe what is this fact?

"high amount of built in power" this makes no sense what so ever this basically says "yasuo is a champion"

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Ofc yasuo dies the most it's hard for yasuo players to keep in their autism and not overcommit and die.

Knalxz1 votes

I mean that Yasuo is safe because he passively gets a shield and has one of the strongest defensive abilities in the game. Everyone's failure at being able to use these doesn't mean that they aren't defensive abilities that make it safer to play Yasuo compared to otehr champions and to himself without them.

Also by built I power I was talking about his crit based passive and the free armor pen on his ultimate.

Yasuo is like a shadow version of Tryndamere. Crit based passive and a strong defensive ability. Those two things allow someone to be safely used and gives them more power then the average champion. Who don't get the most powerful defensive ability and free crits.

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

Here is a fact, Yasuo is a very safe champion

Couldn't even go six words without saying something incorrect during your example fact, smh.

Knalxz1 votes

How is Yasuo not a safe champion? He get's a passive shield and one of the strongest defensive abilities in the game.

What isn't safe about that?

Potato Doc4 votes

I used to be that person who complained all the time about champion design. Now I deal with it and am diamond. I absolutely agree with scarra

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