We can not veryfy but we have to believe. Is the LOL is some kind of new religion?
KFCeytron1 votesIt's not a religion. It's just a closed-source, copyrighted, proprietary, commercial program operated as a service by a major corporation and owned by an even more major corporation. Don't let anyone tell you it's a sport.
Neosphoros1 votesIt's not a religion. It's just a closed-source, copyrighted, proprietary, commercial program operated as a service by a major corporation and owned by an even more major corporation. Don't let anyone tell you it's a sport.
When you looking at any of football, basketball, hockey etc. player you can evaluate him by checking his score. Every time good player will have good stats.
LOL force us to believe that it is not about stats but it is about INTERNAL HIDDEN indicator (MMR) so it is like he telling us that "C" player score is the same as other player "S" score... but what can we do? NOTHING. We can not prove it or disprove it becouse we can not veryfy it (like we can regarding to basketball, football etc)... becouse every data needed for that is hidden.
It is like writing some test in the school. Nobody will show you your result but only you will hear evaluation and people that have checked your test forcing you that result (negative or posityve)they told you about - is true - even you can not verify it.
So anything (becouse we no not know nothing at all) "they" will tell us - we have to believe that is true?
KFCeytron1 votesWhen you looking at any of football, basketball, hockey etc. player you can evaluate him by checking his score. Every time good player will have good stats.
LOL force us to believe that it is not about stats but it is about INTERNAL HIDDEN indicator (MMR) so it is like he telling us that "C" player score is the same as other player "S" score... but what can we do? NOTHING. We can not prove it or disprove it becouse we can not veryfy it (like we can regarding to basketball, football etc)... becouse every data needed for that is hidden.
It is like writing some test in the school. Nobody will show you your result but only you will hear evaluation and people that have checked your test forcing you that result (negative or posityve)they told you about - is true - even you can not verify it.
So anything (becouse we no not know nothing at all) "they" will tell us - we have to believe that is true?
Basically. LoL isn't baseball or chess that you can just check the rulebook. Riot can do anything they want with LoL, limited only by whatever tournament contracts may be in effect (preventing Riot from messing with pro matches, etc.) and Tencent's instructions.
Neosphoros1 votesBasically. LoL isn't baseball or chess that you can just check the rulebook. Riot can do anything they want with LoL, limited only by whatever tournament contracts may be in effect (preventing Riot from messing with pro matches, etc.) and Tencent's instructions.
So it is possible to say that in that way... "we can also BELIEVE that our placement in league or our player evaluation (by system) have nothing to do with our skills but only with system assumptions and where system may -want- us (in what division)"
Shiwah1 votes[deleted]
Neosphoros1 votesConsidering that ELO was visible in season 1 - yes. You can believe that it exists.
"BELIEVE", and not - "KNOW"
Shiwah1 votes[deleted]
Neosphoros1 votesSo what else would Riot use for matchmaking?
Anything... even throwing a coin or scissors stone paper game ;) (it can be simply completely randomized and not specified with fixed conditions)
And yes, it's known that MMR is essentially another name for a modified ELO formula.
...or MMMMR is modified MMR formula and MMMMMMMMMR is modiefied MMMMR formula but still we know nothing about whis system so we can not be sure that it even exist
Shiwah1 votes[deleted]
Neosphoros1 votesAnd why would they do that, instead of using a formula that's been used long before the MOBA genre was even a thing?
Why would they change a core system in the span of three months?
What guarantees you that the events in the history books actually took place, and the evidence wasn't forged?
To simplify achieving their company assumptions... money.
You can look up Elo's formula.
ELO formula have nothing to do with team based games... much more with those - randomized.
Shiwah1 votes[deleted]
Neosphoros1 votesSo, since a game is based on algorithms and programming... You're saying that there's no algorithm.
And since there's no algorithm, there would be no way to pair people up and create matches.
Basically, LoL is just a chatting app where you look at the landing page, and occasionally click on it.
Gotcha. Any evidence for that? Why should we believe you?
Is Riot getting money from sales of things we can't even use, since they're tied to playing a game that isn't a game, but a chatting app?
No. I'm just saying that algorithm may have nothing to do with fair-play but only with earning a money.
Shiwah1 votes[deleted]
Neosphoros1 votes...How? Any evidence that frustrated players spend more money on the very thing that frustrates them?
Please link actual scientific research, not a "people go on a shopping spree to feel happy" argument.
In the same way as saying that "MMR woks fine".
If we have to BELIEVE that without known algorithm, without visible MMR value - system is proper... why we should not to believe that algorithm is bad, MMR not exist and - system is broken?
Shiwah1 votes[deleted]
Neosphoros1 votesSo you concede you don't have scientific papers proving your hypothesis.
As for your main point: you can believe what you want - doesn't mean it's actually true. So, funny enough, you just created a religious movement.
There is no scientific papers/evidences proving that MMR exist so... what is the difference?
Shiwah1 votes[deleted]
Neosphoros1 votesThe difference is, we know what matchmaking is based on due to statements back from season 1, you simply refuse to acknowledge it.
Now, can you kindly provide papers or statements that prove it's not the case? Or we can close this pointless discussion that's going in circles?
In season 1 there was modified ELO system, after that RIOT have change it to MMR that we are know absolutely nothing
...and we going back to the beggining
ZephyrDrake2 votesIn season 1 there was modified ELO system, after that RIOT have change it to MMR that we are know absolutely nothing
...and we going back to the beggining
- RIOT force us to BELIEVE that Player Selecting System work fine even we can not veryfy it.
- RIOT force us to BELIEVE that MMR exist even we can not see it.
- RIOT force us to BELIEVE that C score specific player and S score of our champion means exactly the same and it is relevant to same MMR and if "C player" and "S player" are in the same team - everything is fine.
it's not our nor riot's problem that you refuse to acknowledge what is out there. You like saying a lot without anything to back them, Riot has their claims they can use. You have what? nothing at all that back any of your claims
Kai Guy1 votesShiwah. It took me over a week to get Neo to stop trying to Argue with me that Elo systems cant be used for other games.
ELO system was "invented" for 1vs1 chess games and is has nothing to do with RIOT system (it can not have).
And
I know how "systems" works... I do not know how LOL MMR system work (this specific system). general assumption of the (traditional) MMR system is to evaluate specific player with his game 1vs1 and it based on ELO that comes from chess system. System ELO does exist also in case of team games but there whole team can be assesed as a whole element not as a single players - which is mean that in the case of randomly slected players - it make no sense at all.
Then when I finally got him to watching a video of some one making and testing a Team Elo system. One that clearly states that for it to function it needs to track each players adjustment separately. So that not every player will have the same MMR stake in a game. He ignored it, completely refused to address why that was necessary. Then went and used the part of the video showing the most common misconception people have for how it works that the author went and mathematically proved DOES NOT WORK. And acted like that's what riot has to be using.
So for this post.
How do you Verify if a system uses mmr? Look at the top and bottom of the ranked ladder. Look at the start point for a new account. Look for who sinks and who climbs.
There's a few types of rating and ranking systems. Some use EXP = # of games played. Some are just gloried leaderboards that track # of total wins or kills.
It is by no means difficult to judge accurate what type of matchmaker/rating/ranking system is used if you know what's out there. Its pretty easy to check. You have expectations for the system. Does the system work to meet those expectations. You Look at the game as a whole not just your personal interaction.
How do you verify that skill matters in a game? Look at yourself. When you first started vs how good you are now. Would 5 starter you ever beat a team of 5 current you if both sides are playing to win?
Why does Stats not matter to mmr compaired to win rates? Because mismatched games are hard to judge. In Chess, the Fools mate. White loses in 2 moves. Almost any one can do this, the requirement is whites just that bad. Its the quickest possible way to win in chess. There's no way to judge black players skill because whites just god awful.
In league. Its very easy to play for stats. Ward a lot. CS a lot. Use ability's every time they are off CD that you can add to your damage count. Use teammates as meatsheilds and guard your KDA. Hilariously a lot of folks who only play for stats have awful win rates because they are unwilling to give up stats to actually win a match. Tank a skillshot and die so your carry can live. Don't spam your ability's constantly, they are not a threat if they are on CD.
Any how. I went over all of this time and time again with neo to the point he just reports me to mods for harassment. So my advice is follow the Universal rules.
Leave No Player Behind
Seek to offer constructive advice in a civil and friendly manner, and understand that things you find obvious about the game, the behavior system, or the Boards community may not be obvious to others. Have a little patience and try to help the player reach a better understanding. At the same time, don’t be discouraged if they aren’t receptive. Some small percentage of players won’t want to listen to your advice, no matter how politely you try to lend a hand. In these situations, simply exit the conversation gracefully.
DuskDaUmbreon1 votesAt that point, you're just stretching.
Might as well say that you can't verify your computer exists. :v
Neosphoros1 votesCan any of moderators do something with this member - Kai Guy. Hes comments have a sign of trolling. I have not stoped respond to his comments becouse I have understand his point of view but becouse I do not see a sens to respond on his comments. It does it matter what I will write as a answer - he always changing form of his outcomes which is missleading and in result he does not introduce any new information but keep conversation in blocked position.