How the hek The Twin Shadows works?

Neosphoros··4 votes·6,158 views

On what kind of algorithm Twin Shadows works if it not looking for nearest enemies... Twin Shadows are not only searching enemies but also slowing them down... so what kind of sense it has if it simply can past the enemy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI9kKB_lh4Q&feature=youtu.be

Item description says that:

UNIQUE ACTIVE - SPECTRAL PURSUIT: Summons 2 ghosts for 6 seconds that seek out nearby enemy champions (4000 range). Ghosts, on contact, Sight icon reveal and Slow icon slow enemy champion by 40% for 2 − 5 (based on distance traveled) seconds (90 second cooldown).

...or if the item working in the differnet way that is described it should be some sufficient information before every player will decide to start playing LOL:

"Before you will play in LOL you should read whole LOL wiki because game will not provide all sufficient information that will let you play with others on the same basis, having same chances for win"

57 Comments

Deez Crits6 votes

Seems like Twin Shadows doesn't detect invisible enemies and won't 'hunt' them.

From your clip, Teemo walks into the bush. He doesn't know that it's warded by your team so he tries to pull a sneaky move by turning invisible. Abilities will not cause Teemo to become visible (he will shimmer), so technically he's still invisible and the ghosts from Twin Shadows won't be able to seek him.

Neosphoros1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deez Crits,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aplm97oi,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-14T18:33:28.627+0000)

Seems like Twin Shadows doesn't detect invisible enemies and won't 'hunt' them.

From your clip, Teemo walks into the bush. He doesn't know that it's warded by your team so he tries to pull a sneaky move by turning invisible. Abilities will not cause Teemo to become visible (he will shimmer), so technically he's still invisible and the ghosts from Twin Shadows won't be able to seek him.

So "how the heck" - we (as a players) could knows that - if the items is not described with this information ?

crazÿ1 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Twin_Shadows

no you are wrong look on wiki its say they can see stealth champions not invisible it`s different look at that passive (reveal > sight) and read note

[vlad-salute]

Deez Crits1 votes

I'm not sure if you replied to the correct person since you replied to someone about lack of tooltip clarity, not about the mechanic.

In any case, if you were addressing me in your comment, it says (from the same source you linked):

Champions who are stealthed at the moment Twin Shadows item Twin Shadows is activated will not be targeted or chased by the ghosts. However, if a ghost has locked onto a champion that then proceeds to enter stealth before the ghost makes contact, the ghost will continue to chase until its duration ends or the champion leaves stealth.

Invisibility is an enhanced form of stealth/camouflage. Contrary to what you described in a later comment, pink wards do not actually reveal teemo in his invisibility. The scanner will reveal his position as a red outline/thing, but that's about it. He doesn't become targetable via any means in his invisibility other than being under a turret.

crazÿ1 votes

just red second one it`s about sight and true sight i just read it now

Neosphoros1 votes

{quoted}

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Twin_Shadows

no you are wrong look on wiki its say they can see stealth champions not invisible it`s different look at that passive (reveal > sight) and read note

[vlad-salute]

Are you trying to say that before we will decide to play in LOL we should read all LOL wikia? FACEPALM. Say that to all 10, 12...17yo kids. All of those problems are only becouse RIOT is lazy. Instead of trying to make things right he making a problem.

crazÿ1 votes

should they type all that before we start the game?

Sight is a property of units, structures, and certain summoner spells, items, and abilities in League of Legends that represents a team possessing vision of a target area. Inversely, the area of the map in which a team does not have sight over is known as the Fog of War, a common hallmark of the RTS genre which is represented visually as a dark shroud over the terrain.

Possessing sight is necessary to observe most information about any non-allied units in the game. Such information can include, among many other things, the unit's current location, direction, health, mana, possessed buffs and purchased items, making the acquisition and denial of sight one of the most crucially important skills to learn in high levels of play.

All units in the game will grant vision up to a specific radius. Champions have a sight range of 1200 units, allied minions and pets have a slightly lower value of 1100, and turrets have a still-lower value of 1095. Items and abilities do not always grant sight and those that do often have differing applications of the mechanic to one another.

There exist two obstacles towards sight - impassable terrain (which is always opaque to vision granted by units, structures and most items and abilities) and brush (which is opaque towards vision when viewed from the outside inwards and not the reverse). Such barriers will also block vision of any areas that are directly behind them from the sight-granting unit. Units that can directly observe an area around these obstacles are commonly described as having line of sight towards that area.

Sight can be removed in three ways - the withdrawal of any sight-granting units, abilities or items from the vicinity, the expiration of a sight-granting debuff or spell, or directly with the Nearsight icon nearsight debuff (which currently only exists with GravesSquare Graves' Smoke Screen Smoke Screen, NocturneSquare Nocturne's Paranoia Paranoia, QuinnSquare Quinn's Blinding Assault Blinding Assault and Tahm KenchSquare Tahm Kench's Devour Devour). Be noted, however, that despite looking like such, Rek'SaiSquare Rek'Sai's Burrow Burrow does not Nearsight her, as she conserves allied vision. True sight is a unique form of sight linked to the detection of stealthed units. A unit that is stealthed is not affected by standard sight and is only visible with a source of true sight nearby. All sources of true sight currently in the game also provide standard sight - otherwise, true sight follows the same rules as standard sight.

The objects listed below are abilities and items that can temporarily grant sight of an area or enemy, as well as which of those abilities and items grant true sight.

I DOT THINK PEOPLE WILL READ AND THERES MORE THAT`S JUST SIGHT LMAO

Deez Crits2 votes

I agree with you. A lot of these things are things you learn while playing the game. Not every tooltip has to be all encompassing; it might be annoying when something doesn't work the way you assumed it to work the first time, but after that you learn and adapt your gameplay to reflect it.

As I basically mentioned in a separate comment somewhere in the thread, there's a balance to it. You have to be concise so that tooltips are excessively long but detailed enough so that players understand the function of an item/ability. You can't really expect secret/hidden interactions like Twin Shadow's with stealth to be completely described. Not only is it complicated, it's not generally applicable to the function of the item.

ZackTheWaffleMan1 votes

{quoted}

Are you trying to say that before we will decide to play in LOL we should read all LOL wikia?

you should do this, it'll reduce the number of excuses you have for why you can't rank up

Velzard of Koz1 votes

Stealth and Invisible is the same thing. Stealth forks into Camouflage and Invisibility. It states it cannot see stealthed enemies If they are so on-cast, but will hunt them If they entered stealth while ghosts were out.

420 grams2 votes

Only through third party websites or your own trial and errors. League doesn't take its text as seriously as card games like Yugioh or Magic, so you have to guess what you think the coders meant.

crazÿ1 votes

ok i can explain more there`s sight and true sigh teemo passive need true sight to see him like item 2055 item 3364 and twin ghost have sight can see just teemo R or anyone stealth champion Twitch Evelynn Khazix

and thanks for that post i did`t know about sight and true sight

Deez Crits2 votes

From playing the game and learning from experience is my best guess. Twin shadows has a very unique active effect which has a very interesting interaction with champions that have a stealth mechanic.

You can read more about it here: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Twin_Shadows

The way Twin Shadows interacts with stealth is rather complicated to include in a tool tip (according to how it is described in the source above).

Perhaps adding 'seeking out the nearest unstealthed champion' would be a more reasonable tooltip, but then we would get complaints about champions like Rengar claiming 'Hey I went into stealth, why did it continue chasing me' or something like that. To which we would say 'Oh, once a ghost locks in on a target, they will attempt to pursue that target' and then it becomes a mess of a tooltip if we want every scenario to be covered for the sake of an accurate tooltip.

TLDR: It becomes a mess of how much detail becomes 'enough' in a tooltip and how much is actually necessary.

Neosphoros1 votes

[deleted]

Deez Crits1 votes

No, the bottom line is that Twin Shadows ghosts won't seek stealthed champions. That's basically it. I already described why including how it interacts in the tooltip would be problematic (it's a very contextual/specific interaction which starts a chain reaction of sorts).

No, I do not read the website every week. I simply looked up 'Twin Shadows' and 'Stealth' and found that web page and found some interesting information.

For major/relevant changes to the game, sticking to patch notes will usually suffice. The 'hidden' interactions like that of Twin Shadows with stealth is something that has never changed since release. You learn about it once from experience and, unless Riot makes an announcement from patch notes, you assume it won't change.

Exin01 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deez Crits,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aplm97oi,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-14T18:33:28.627+0000)

Seems like Twin Shadows doesn't detect invisible enemies and won't 'hunt' them.

From your clip, Teemo walks into the bush. He doesn't know that it's warded by your team so he tries to pull a sneaky move by turning invisible. Abilities will not cause Teemo to become visible (he will shimmer), so technically he's still invisible and the ghosts from Twin Shadows won't be able to seek him.

they target invisible champs maybe even akali in shroud

Deez Crits1 votes

Is this a fact that you know of? Do you have a source or reference to verify that the ghosts will seek out invisible champions? Every source I've looked at regarding this interaction suggests that any champions invisibile/stealthed when the ghosts are summoned will not be pursued by the ghosts.

https://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/95223/does-twin-shadows-seek-stealthed-champions/95328#95328

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3029190

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Twin_Shadows

Heck, even the video of the OP is in agreement with what users have noted from their personal gameplay experience. Until you can find some source of a stealthed champion being sought by the ghosts, it's hard to convince me that the ghosts seek stealthed champions.

Neosphoros1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deez Crits,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aplm97oi,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2018-12-14T19:22:53.658+0000)

Is this a fact that you know of? Do you have a source or reference to verify that the ghosts will seek out invisible champions? Every source I've looked at regarding this interaction suggests that any champions invisibile/stealthed when the ghosts are summoned will not be pursued by the ghosts.

https://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/95223/does-twin-shadows-seek-stealthed-champions/95328#95328

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3029190

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Twin_Shadows

Heck, even the video of the OP is in agreement with what users have noted from their personal gameplay experience. Until you can find some source of a stealthed champion being sought by the ghosts, it's hard to convince me that the ghosts seek stealthed champions.

It is interesting. How (fantasy) ghost could look for (fantasy) invincible champions? Maybe becouse LOL it is not based on real assumptions?

Deez Crits1 votes

Now I'm confused if you want ghosts to seek out stealthed/invisible champions or if you want more clarity in the tooltips. shrug

Neosphoros1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deez Crits,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aplm97oi,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-16T18:52:00.506+0000)

Now I'm confused if you want ghosts to seek out stealthed/invisible champions or if you want more clarity in the tooltips. shrug

I was expected that ghosts looking for every champion...

In LOL there is so many thing that we have to guess.

It should be something natural and obvious to you (RIOT) to prepare the game in greatest possible way to minimalize players problems. You should describe it as good as it only possible.

Twin Shadows is not only problem... similiar thing is with slowdown mechanics.

Every sufficient information should be included to skill description.

Exin01 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deez Crits,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aplm97oi,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2018-12-14T19:22:53.658+0000)

Is this a fact that you know of? Do you have a source or reference to verify that the ghosts will seek out invisible champions? Every source I've looked at regarding this interaction suggests that any champions invisibile/stealthed when the ghosts are summoned will not be pursued by the ghosts.

https://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/95223/does-twin-shadows-seek-stealthed-champions/95328#95328

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3029190

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Twin_Shadows

Heck, even the video of the OP is in agreement with what users have noted from their personal gameplay experience. Until you can find some source of a stealthed champion being sought by the ghosts, it's hard to convince me that the ghosts seek stealthed champions.

there are more variances of "invisibility": camuflage, invisibility, stealth, vanish, obscure(?) and each interact diferetnly, some react to wards, hits, if they are near to you etc. and some completely bypass any form of reveal

Deez Crits1 votes

Sure, there are several variances of stealth. The discussion we're having is that ghosts will not hunt them. I don't really know what your point is and, if you have a point, it probably doesn't contribute anything to the discussion.

The fact is that ghosts apparently will not seek out stealthed champions; if you have evidence to prove otherwise, we gain nothing from mentioning the various types of stealth.

Edit: You mention 'ghosts target invisible champions' when the video the OP posts literally negates that statement as being false. Teemo becomes 'invisible' according to his tooltip and clearly the ghosts didn't target him. I'm not sure if you understand what you are trying to argue for.

crazÿ1 votes

yup true sight

TheSymbolÔfPeace2 votes

It doesn't detect invisible enemies. Not everything needs to be 100% covered in the tooltip. There is enough text on that item already, it doesn't need to say "chases enemies for 8 seconds (this is approximately 1000 units in range however the shadows are unable to detect enemies that are invisible and stealthier)". Why add that when you can just take <5 seconds to look it up? This complaint is equal to complaining that not every door is a sliding door. It doesn't take that long to find out, and not all items have "top secret" information.

crazÿ1 votes

did you read wiki before you talk? twin ghost have sight teemo passive have true sight omg i can`t believe hoe ppl can be so stupid like that

TheSymbolÔfPeace2 votes

Champions who are stealthed at the moment Twin Shadows is activated will not be targeted or chased by the ghosts. However, if a ghost has locked onto a champion that then proceeds to enter stealth before the ghost makes contact, the ghost will continue to chase until its duration ends or the champion leaves stealth.

This is from the Wiki. You activated Twin Shadows after Teemo entered stealth.

Neosphoros2 votes

{quoted}

Champions who are stealthed at the moment Twin Shadows is activated will not be targeted or chased by the ghosts. However, if a ghost has locked onto a champion that then proceeds to enter stealth before the ghost makes contact, the ghost will continue to chase until its duration ends or the champion leaves stealth.

This is from the Wiki. You activated Twin Shadows after Teemo entered stealth.

Can you imagine that 10 other people already wrote that before you?

TheSymbolÔfPeace1 votes

You don't seem to understand why it didn't find Teemo, so I'm trying to help you.

crazÿ2 votes

file:///C:/Users/yousi/Pictures/LoL/Screenshot_3.png sight file:///C:/Users/yousi/Pictures/LoL/Screenshot_4.png true sight file:///C:/Users/yousi/Pictures/LoL/Screenshot_6.png twin ghost have sight

i not gonna answer you again you dont know anything

Neosphoros1 votes

{quoted}

file:///C:/Users/yousi/Pictures/LoL/Screenshot_3.png sight file:///C:/Users/yousi/Pictures/LoL/Screenshot_4.png true sight file:///C:/Users/yousi/Pictures/LoL/Screenshot_6.png twin ghost have sight

i not gonna answer you again you dont know anything

How old are you? Are you trying to show me a picture that is on your local disk? Are you nuts? Go... read whole "computing wiki" before you will decide to share your local photos in forum

I see that you know everything... facepalm

TheSymbolÔfPeace1 votes

I'm just stating the facts that are given by the wiki. Teemo's passive is invisibility

crazÿ1 votes

teemo its say true sight i guess you will read everything to understand lol

sight and true sight find the different between them and you will know what we are talking about

TheSymbolÔfPeace1 votes

Twin Shadows gives true sight when it comes in contact against an enemy champion. Until then it is unable to detect champions who have invisibility/stealth applied beforehand.

Neosphoros1 votes

There is simply solution for this problem. It is already in game. "Why da heck" simply not to include every informations about skills, item features "under" Shift button on keyboard... like it is in case of Neeko skills ????

Deez Crits1 votes

So why make the post in the context of asking the community how an item interacts with stealth? Your title is literally 'How the hek The Twin Shadows works?'

I offered the explanation; if you understood the interaction then you should have made the post under a different context. I'm sorry that you got what you came for and are now upset that the tooltips aren't up to your standard, but as I already mentioned this interaction with stealth is very minor and highly situational. Putting it into the tooltip is a lot of unnecessary extra text even for players who want to learn more about the item.

This is my personal opinion; one situation where the item doesn't work to your understanding isn't going to hurt you.

Neosphoros1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deez Crits,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aplm97oi,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-12-14T19:27:14.312+0000)

So why make the post in the context of asking the community how an item interacts with stealth? Your title is literally 'How the hek The Twin Shadows works?'

I offered the explanation; if you understand the interaction then you should have made the post under a different context. I'm sorry that you got what you came for and are now upset that the tooltips aren't up to your standard, but as I already mentioned this interaction with stealth is very minor and highly situational. Putting it into the tooltip is a lot of unnecessary extra text even for players who want to learn more about the item.

This is my personal opinion; one situation where the item doesn't work to your understanding isn't going to hurt you.

The question can be also a form of suggestion... in this case - sugestion of a BUG. I did not know how the iteam work in real. I was expecting that every information that I need to use this item is already included in description.

So... if description says that those ghosts hunts enemys... I was expecting that it hunts EVERY ENEMY.

This game lacks systematics. Some of the skills are fully described, some are not. People saying that it is becouse there is no space in game for those informations... but somebody have invent solution for that - just by presing SHIFT button on keyboard (like it is in case of Neeko). So it is possible? Ohhhhh yes it is.

Deez Crits1 votes

Sure, that's good and all but my point is that you've got what you came here for and a new post would better suit your request/suggestion. No one is going to click on this thread and assume it's a suggestion about tooltip clarity.

Yes, more clarity and more detail is good. I personally don't think this particular case needs to be described in the tooltip since it's a very situational use. However, as I've already mentioned that's my personal opinion. When I read a tooltip, I expect everything to be relevant in a general scenario. Reading a block of text regarding how the item interacts with stealth is... OK if you need to deal with that, but I don't want to have to skim through some text which might possibly have no ramifications on the current game I'm playing. That's what I use Google for; to find out what other players have discovered about very specific interactions.

I understand you're likely not in agreement with my perspective and that's OK; this is one of those things where the argument is based off how we feel rather than facts. Happy Snowdown!

crazÿ1 votes

just ignore him idk why after we explain everything. he post again lol

Deez Crits1 votes

I don't think I have much to add here anyways; the topic has definitely diverted to something more subjective. Happy Snowdown to you!

Neosphoros1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deez Crits,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aplm97oi,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-14T19:55:19.645+0000)

Sure, that's good and all but my point is that you've got what you came here for and a new post would better suit your request/suggestion. No one is going to click on this thread and assume it's a suggestion about tooltip clarity.

Yes, more clarity and more detail is good. I personally don't think this particular case needs to be described in the tooltip since it's a very situational use. However, as I've already mentioned that's my personal opinion. When I read a tooltip, I expect everything to be relevant in a general scenario. Reading a block of text regarding how the item interacts with stealth is... OK if you need to deal with that, but I don't want to have to skim through some text which might possibly have no ramifications on the current game I'm playing. That's what I use Google for; to find out what other players have discovered about very specific interactions.

I understand you're likely not in agreement with my perspective and that's OK; this is one of those things where the argument is based off how we feel rather than facts. Happy Snowdown!

But it should not depend on me. By continuing this conversation I just tried to point out how this game is unclear and unsistematic.

Deez Crits1 votes

I don't agree there. I don't agree with this whole premise that the tooltip needs to include how it interacts with stealth.

Don't you understand? We have varying opinions on the matter; maybe it's the reason why the tooltip doesn't mention stealth. The community, as a whole, doesn't seem to have much issue with it. You might view it as 'unclear and unsystematic', but what other examples do you have? Your view on the tooltip of Twin Shadows being unclear is... apparently not very popular because I don't see many posts at all about it.

Maybe if you make a separate post and garner a lot of support to your point, maybe you would have a decent case to present. But as it stands, you talk about how 'the game is unclear and unsystematic' from one example. Tell me others. Don't tell me one example supports your conclusion and you're ready to publish an article about it.

Neosphoros1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deez Crits,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aplm97oi,comment-id=000300000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-12-16T19:00:21.483+0000)

I don't agree there. I don't agree with this whole premise that the tooltip needs to include how it interacts with stealth.

Don't you understand? We have varying opinions on the matter; maybe it's the reason why the tooltip doesn't mention stealth. The community, as a whole, doesn't seem to have much issue with it. You might view it as 'unclear and unsystematic', but what other examples do you have? Your view on the tooltip of Twin Shadows being unclear is... apparently not very popular because I don't see many posts at all about it.

Maybe if you make a separate post and garner a lot of support to your point, maybe you would have a decent case to present. But as it stands, you talk about how 'the game is unclear and unsystematic' from one example. Tell me others. Don't tell me one example supports your conclusion and you're ready to publish an article about it.

I have just realized that "people like you"... decorated with medals (in profile avatar) are always "not agree". Maybe it is because everything is clear for you - due to your long experience with LOL, maybe it is becouse probobly you are RIOT-board moderators and your role is always to not agree with people and your job is making a artificial traffic on board.

Try to understand (what will be probobly - impossible... becouse this is your role on board - messing) that people are not born LOL experts and they need explanations that RIOT should provide for them.

This is only one example... but there is more.

  • Rylais Slowdown mechanics is not described in game (like every other "not stacking" slowdowns)
  • In Frostfang It is unknown how killing minions slowing gold generation
  • If slowdowns are not stacking - how the "armor decreasing" (jarvan Q) from skills and items features do or not
  • If Liandrys Torment working with Brands skills ?
Kai Guy1 votes

Part of the game is learning the mechanics. That's how its built. Sorry you don't like it. Eventually your going to learn to check depuff and buffs for information, as well as how look at related champion stats to see effects of buffs and debuffs. Left clicking on units pulls up their information and you can see stats, as well as what buffs and debuffs that unit is suffering from. Directly above your ability bar is where your champions buffs and debuffs are applied.

Stacking buffs and debuffs will have add number to represent the stack. Stacking ability's are worded as such. For example Viktor has a rare slow in game that works with stacks, this ability is an exception rather then the norm. As such is in his tool tip clearly states the ability stacks. You can see the debuff get reapplied into a 2stack state and then turn into a stun at the 3rd stack. Information on what the ability is doing is also provided in that debuff icon.

@Rylaias. You keep complaining that it doesn't function how you personally like it. Its still clearly visable as a debuff icon. Its duration is consistent. It follows the basic rules of the game. You don't approach it from a gameplay standpoint fine, you can do that, you can get annoyed at it for not obeying your logic. Yet it functions the same way every time regardless of your knowledge, expectations, or dislike for it. Slows don't function the way you though or like, bummer but you need to adjust your understanding. They function the same way in game regardless of your understanding. Gameplay matters more then it adhering to real life logic.

@ Frostfang. 12 seconds per minion killed. You get a Debuff icon when you kill minions. You can time its duration. A bit of testing shows 12 seconds per minion killed. The Debuff icon has a timer on it that shows how much longer its disabled.

@slowdowns. Abilitys and items that stack say so. Basic game mechanics however function the same way. You can see negative changes to champion by left clicking on them. Buying HP items stacks hp. Buying armor stacks. The Debuffs from different slows are all applied How ever the basic mechanic in the game for slows is that only the strongest takes effect, they don't multiply or add up. This is observable IN GAME with no necessary outside knowledge by trying to stack slows one time and seeing that it makes 0 change to the reduction in the enemy Movement speed. You left click on a champion to see their stats. Ability's that break this rule explain so in their tool tip. Viktor because they are the exception to the rule not the norm.

@Brand skills? (i assume the passive ability on him is what you want checked?) and Torment. It reapplies Torment. Again left click on an enemy champion and this is clearly showen. If you get 3 stacks and they go BOOM? Yea that reapplies torment. Does Torment do damage properly? Yes. Item functions as expected. Very simple to test. Look at debuffs on enemy. Go into practice tool and double check it if you want. item 1056 and 3 item 1052 gives you the same flat AP as item 3151.

You ask a question but have your own assumptions on it. You get the correct answers. You decide to stick to your assumptions rather then adapt to new information.

Also Elo systems can work for more then just chess despite being invented to be used for rating chess players. Literally the second sentence on Wikipedia will say this. Not expanding your own knowledge, and miring yourself into your viewpoint is only going to hurt your ability to learn. I cant discuss how MMR systems are derivative from Elo systems and what expectations we can have for that when you refuse to believe Elo systems will function for any game besides chess... because the only thing you know about it was that Arpad Elo made his system for chess and will not make any effort to grow your personal knowledge on the topic.

As i am trying to help you correct some wrong assumptions you have. Let me also point out that Moderators and Rioters have colored names on the boards. Moderators are volunteers, not employees. A Rioter arguing with you would have a lot more credibility posting as a Rioter. Red post on this thread for example. "This is our system. In this it works as intended this is not a bug." Boom, the conversation is over. There is just no realistic gains for any one to be "undercover" because it only makes it more difficult for them to influence players. Meanwhile folks like me and the other guys here, your calling us deceptive and all we are trying to do is help, that's frusturating.

there a reason your getting a lot of downvotes man, take a breath, don't get mad. It is ok to be wrong about thigns, its alright if your new and ignorant on systems. But let the people who want to help you, Actually help. don't dig in your heels and double down on your assumptions. Don't only accept things that only confirm your views and disregard everything else. Grow,I encourage you, please learn and grow.

Till then, I will be around and im happy to answer questions for you. When the correct answer is known, bummer if you disagree with it but dude expect the same response every time you re-ask that question. no matter how many times you ask some one 4+4 the only correct reply is 8. If some one says 44 they are wrong. Its simple. Its really that simple. No matter how much the insult the folks who tell them nah dude its 8. Still wrong.

You'll note I'm trying to be a lot nicer to you once you said your native language is not English and your still learning to speak English. Language barriers make things hard. Please let me know if I used any words you don't understand.

Neosphoros1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aplm97oi,comment-id=00030000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-18T00:39:54.715+0000)

Part of the game is learning the mechanics. That's how its built. Sorry you don't like it. Eventually your going to learn to check depuff and buffs for information, as well as how look at related champion stats to see effects of buffs and debuffs. Left clicking on units pulls up their information and you can see stats, as well as what buffs and debuffs that unit is suffering from. Directly above your ability bar is where your champions buffs and debuffs are applied.

Stacking buffs and debuffs will have add number to represent the stack. Stacking ability's are worded as such. For example Viktor has a rare slow in game that works with stacks, this ability is an exception rather then the norm. As such is in his tool tip clearly states the ability stacks. You can see the debuff get reapplied into a 2stack state and then turn into a stun at the 3rd stack. Information on what the ability is doing is also provided in that debuff icon.

@Rylaias. You keep complaining that it doesn't function how you personally like it. Its still clearly visable as a debuff icon. Its duration is consistent. It follows the basic rules of the game. You don't approach it from a gameplay standpoint fine, you can do that, you can get annoyed at it for not obeying your logic. Yet it functions the same way every time regardless of your knowledge, expectations, or dislike for it. Slows don't function the way you though or like, bummer but you need to adjust your understanding. They function the same way in game regardless of your understanding. Gameplay matters more then it adhering to real life logic.

@ Frostfang. 12 seconds per minion killed. You get a Debuff icon when you kill minions. You can time its duration. A bit of testing shows 12 seconds per minion killed. The Debuff icon has a timer on it that shows how much longer its disabled.

@slowdowns. Abilitys and items that stack say so. Basic game mechanics however function the same way. You can see negative changes to champion by left clicking on them. Buying HP items stacks hp. Buying armor stacks. The Debuffs from different slows are all applied How ever the basic mechanic in the game for slows is that only the strongest takes effect, they don't multiply or add up. This is observable IN GAME with no necessary outside knowledge by trying to stack slows one time and seeing that it makes 0 change to the reduction in the enemy Movement speed. You left click on a champion to see their stats. Ability's that break this rule explain so in their tool tip. Viktor because they are the exception to the rule not the norm.

@Brand skills? (i assume the passive ability on him is what you want checked?) and Torment. It reapplies Torment. Again left click on an enemy champion and this is clearly showen. If you get 3 stacks and they go BOOM? Yea that reapplies torment. Does Torment do damage properly? Yes. Item functions as expected. Very simple to test. Look at debuffs on enemy. Go into practice tool and double check it if you want. item 1056 and 3 item 1052 gives you the same flat AP as item 3151.

You ask a question but have your own assumptions on it. You get the correct answers. You decide to stick to your assumptions rather then adapt to new information.

Also Elo systems can work for more then just chess despite being invented to be used for rating chess players. Literally the second sentence on Wikipedia will say this. Not expanding your own knowledge, and miring yourself into your viewpoint is only going to hurt your ability to learn. I cant discuss how MMR systems are derivative from Elo systems and what expectations we can have for that when you refuse to believe Elo systems will function for any game besides chess... because the only thing you know about it was that Arpad Elo made his system for chess and will not make any effort to grow your personal knowledge on the topic.

As i am trying to help you correct some wrong assumptions you have. Let me also point out that Moderators and Rioters have colored names on the boards. Moderators are volunteers, not employees. A Rioter arguing with you would have a lot more credibility posting as a Rioter. Red post on this thread for example. "This is our system. In this it works as intended this is not a bug." Boom, the conversation is over. There is just no realistic gains for any one to be "undercover" because it only makes it more difficult for them to influence players. Meanwhile folks like me and the other guys here, your calling us deceptive and all we are trying to do is help, that's frusturating.

there a reason your getting a lot of downvotes man, take a breath, don't get mad. It is ok to be wrong about thigns, its alright if your new and ignorant on systems. But let the people who want to help you, Actually help. don't dig in your heels and double down on your assumptions. Don't only accept things that only confirm your views and disregard everything else. Grow,I encourage you, please learn and grow.

Till then, I will be around and im happy to answer questions for you. When the correct answer is known, bummer if you disagree with it but dude expect the same response every time you re-ask that question. no matter how many times you ask some one 4+4 the only correct reply is 8. If some one says 44 they are wrong. Its simple. Its really that simple. No matter how much the insult the folks who tell them nah dude its 8. Still wrong.

You'll note I'm trying to be a lot nicer to you once you said your native language is not English and your still learning to speak English. Language barriers make things hard. Please let me know if I used any words you don't understand.

I would like to ask you a few questions. I will ask them one by one. Every each of them will be in separate comment. I will prove how much your point of view and rules of the game are unsystematic and therefore misleading for players and thank to your answers I will be able to create few more threads where I will show that game in some way is not fair/equal for every player. Do you agree?

Kai Guy1 votes

I am mostly ok with this. I have 3 conditions. 1. Wait untill we agree that we are at a mutually agreed upon impasse before you make a new thread. I don't want to have to track conversations over multiple threads. You can use it as fule to make more posts if you want but please don't make things more complicated. Lets finish our conversation to a satisfactory way here first before you start doing that. 2.Lets make it a trade. I want to teach you about Elo and MMR systems. I ask a yes or no question, you answer. Then you ask me your question and I will answer to the best of my ability and provide the apposite sources. 3. Keep it to things that are provably true and can have a source attached.

So. for your first question, "Do you agree?" Im down. Hell, Let me save some ime if you want.

  1. You correct, The game is inherently unfair. That's honestly one of the only part of what is fair about it. It doesn't care about you or any one else. Feel free to use a question if you want that explained in detail, your going to need to learn about perfect imbalance as a game design for this conversation, which I like a lot so im happy to talk about that
  • Lets save you and me time, feel free to ask multiple questions as follow ups. They have to be related to your first question however. Don't want this spiraling into multiple conversations per response.

Your first question.

Do you agree?

With 3 conditions yes. If you cant accommodate reasonable requests I find it unlike your going to communicate in good faith with me due to your previous negative attitude to me. From my highly upsetting behavior of literally just trying to help you (man I want to caps lock this). My bad for sarcasm and idioms Earlier. All I have to say is I did not know your still learning English so I took it for granted you'd understand me clearly. I know how frustrating language barriers are so I am willing to help out and treat you differently.

My first question, Do you understand why Elo's Elo rating system can be applied to games besides chess?

Neosphoros1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aplm97oi,comment-id=0003000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-18T07:47:49.864+0000)

I am mostly ok with this. I have 3 conditions. 1. Wait untill we agree that we are at a mutually agreed upon impasse before you make a new thread. I don't want to have to track conversations over multiple threads. You can use it as fule to make more posts if you want but please don't make things more complicated. Lets finish our conversation to a satisfactory way here first before you start doing that. 2.Lets make it a trade. I want to teach you about Elo and MMR systems. I ask a yes or no question, you answer. Then you ask me your question and I will answer to the best of my ability and provide the apposite sources. 3. Keep it to things that are provably true and can have a source attached.

There is no impass - this is not a chess game. I'm just trying to understand how the system works... or if it not working - I want to show that.

So. for your first question, "Do you agree?" Im down. Hell, Let me save some ime if you want.

  1. You correct, The game is inherently unfair. That's honestly one of the only part of what is fair about it. It doesn't care about you or any one else. Feel free to use a question if you want that explained in detail, your going to need to learn about perfect imbalance as a game design for this conversation, which I like a lot so im happy to talk about that

It is not even about caring about players... but about giving equal chances... equal in the meaning selecting teammates with similar experience.

  • Lets save you and me time, feel free to ask multiple questions as follow ups. They have to be related to your first question however. Don't want this spiraling into multiple conversations per response.

Your first question.

With 3 conditions yes. If you cant accommodate reasonable requests I find it unlike your going to communicate in good faith with me due to your previous negative attitude to me. From my highly upsetting behavior of literally just trying to help you (man I want to caps lock this). My bad for sarcasm and idioms Earlier. All I have to say is I did not know your still learning English so I took it for granted you'd understand me clearly. I know how frustrating language barriers are so I am willing to help out and treat you differently.

My attitude to you will does not matter if your answers will be rational. It is not about relation between you and me.

My first question, Do you understand why Elo's Elo rating system can be applied to games besides chess?

I understand why ELO can be applied to 1vs1 type games.

Of course it can be also applied to different games but it does not mean that it will be working... and becouse ELO for LOL purposes would had to be very modified - so it even impossible to say that - this is still ELO system and RIOT maybe should change it for... LELO or LOLO or RIOTELLO... at least it will sound funny same as funny is LOL system mechanics :D

ELO is a "proper name" and it is only relate to "this" specific type of games - chess games and it is not equal to - for example "MMR" which is mean MatchMakingRating system (in general) that suggest any type of system with ELO included.

I'm the one who trying to undermine the credibility of this system, you are the one who trying to force us to believe that system working fine.

I will prove you - why. OK?

Kai Guy1 votes

We can work with this.

ELO is a "proper name" and it is only relate to "this" specific type of games - chess games and it is not equal to - for example "MMR" which is mean MatchMakingRating system (in general) that suggest any type of system with ELO included.

If you read a little bit Wikipedia on it you will find that its used by a lot more then just chess. The second sentence of Wikipedia is "the Elo system was originally invented as an improved chess rating system over the previously used Harkness system, but is also used as a rating system for multiplayer competition in a number of video games,[1] association football, American football, basketball,[2] Major League Baseball, table tennis, Scrabble, board games such as Diplomacy (game) and other games."

Section 2 of the page is about different systems. Heres that. Different ratings systems.

The phrase "Elo rating" is often used to mean a player's chess rating as calculated by FIDE. However, this usage is confusing and misleading because Elo's general ideas have been adopted by many organizations, including the USCF (before FIDE), many other national chess federations, the short-lived Professional Chess Association (PCA), and online chess servers including the Internet Chess Club (ICC), Free Internet Chess Server (FICS), and Yahoo! Games. **Each organization has a unique implementation, and none of them follows Elo's original suggestions precisely. It would be more accurate to refer to all of the above ratings as Elo ratings and none of them as The Elo rating. **

Of course it can be also applied to different games but it does not mean that it will be working... and because ELO for LOL purposes would had to be very modified - so it even impossible to say that - this is still ELO system and RIOT maybe should change it for... LELO or LOLO or RIOTELLO... at least it will sound funny same as funny is LOL system mechanics :D

Riot did change it. They call their system League system. It works off MMR. In regards to function, your MMR Replaced your Elo rating. Riot used Elo rating in season 1 and 2. Season 1 and 2 Matchmaker built games around players Assigned Elo Rating Number. Seasons 3 onwards Matchmaker has built games around a players assigned MMR Number.Riot talking about using Elo

ELO is a "proper name" and it is only relate to "this" specific type of games - chess games and it is not equal to - for example "MMR" which is mean MatchMakingRating system (in general) that suggest any type of system with ELO included.

Ok. Proper name is where your stuck then. Need to find a way to help you understand that Elo rating systems are a term commonly applied to derivatives in addition to Arpad's system. Need to make you understand that we are not talking about "THE" Elo rating system, we are talking about Elo rating systems as a whole. A much broader topic.

Do you understand why "Elo Rating System" is a term with wider application of meaning then just the original work of Arpad Elo and is used for multiple different systems?

Neosphoros1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aplm97oi,comment-id=000300000000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-18T18:28:45.909+0000)

We can work with this.

If you read a little bit Wikipedia on it you will find that its used by a lot more then just chess. The second sentence of Wikipedia is "the Elo system was originally invented as an improved chess rating system over the previously used Harkness system, but is also used as a rating system for multiplayer competition in a number of video games,[1] association football, American football, basketball,[2] Major League Baseball, table tennis, Scrabble, board games such as Diplomacy (game) and other games."

Section 2 of the page is about different systems. Heres that. Different ratings systems.

The phrase "Elo rating" is often used to mean a player's chess rating as calculated by FIDE. However, this usage is confusing and misleading because Elo's general ideas have been adopted by many organizations, including the USCF (before FIDE), many other national chess federations, the short-lived Professional Chess Association (PCA), and online chess servers including the Internet Chess Club (ICC), Free Internet Chess Server (FICS), and Yahoo! Games. **Each organization has a unique implementation, and none of them follows Elo's original suggestions precisely. It would be more accurate to refer to all of the above ratings as Elo ratings and none of them as The Elo rating. **

Riot did change it. They call their system League system. It works off MMR. In regards to function, your MMR Replaced your Elo rating. Riot used Elo rating in season 1 and 2. Season 1 and 2 Matchmaker built games around players Assigned Elo Rating Number. Seasons 3 onwards Matchmaker has built games around a players assigned MMR Number.Riot talking about using Elo

Ok. Proper name is where your stuck then. Need to find a way to help you understand that Elo rating systems are a term commonly applied to derivatives in addition to Arpad's system. Need to make you understand that we are not talking about "THE" Elo rating system, we are talking about Elo rating systems as a whole. A much broader topic.

Do you understand why "Elo Rating System" is a term with wider application of meaning then just the original work of Arpad Elo and is used for multiple different systems?

I will answer to your question in differnet thread:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/pl/c/gameplay-balance/EEcPrLo8-why-elo-system-can-not-work-properly-in-lol-normal-drat-ranked-soloduo

More from Gameplay

More by Neosphoros