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Why is Vayne considered a lategame hypercarry?

Disulfiram·Oct 13, 2015·2 votes·1,207 views

EDIT: Please read it all, don't just answer the title's question without even giving a proper reasoning... cherry picking Vayne's strengths isn't going to prove anything, and saying things similar to "she is an hypercarry" without a proper reasoning isn't going to help me understand why is she considered such.

EDIT2: Since it is starting to look like a regular pattern in the answers I'm getting, I feel it is better to put this here: sorry, but you can't just list the strengths of a champion while ignoring the weaknesses and not comparing it to other champions' own kits, and just call it an hypercarry. It's both a cherry pick bias and a non sequitur fallacy...

I mean:

She hits her power spike at 6 or slightly later
Has weak teamfighting ( do way better by virtue of their huge AoE damage, yet as far as I know neither is considered an hypercarry)
Is very short ranged, which makes her a very poor siege champion and contributes to her poor teamfighting (her Q and Ulti make her an excellent duelist, but her very short range means that people with targeted or night undodgeable CC can easily screw her over big time in fights; e.g. )
Her silver bolts barely matter during proper teamfights (as an ADC she shouldn't be focusing one champion for a lot of time, but rather hitting whoever she can without falling out of position)
In order to be actually relevant in full-on teamfights she needs either a lot of protection from her team or a very weak engage potential from the enemy team; yet with this premise can do way better than her by virtue of his draventastic damage, and he's not considered an hypercarry.
She is a strong splitpusher, but this does not make her a lategame hypercarry... too is a strong splitpusher, yet he's considered to fall off hard lategame.

Looking at these points, to me Vayne looks more like a midgame champion... so, why is she considered a lategame hypercarry?

16 Comments

ToasteyOct 13, 20154 votes

Well if we're gonna go with fallacies, you're kind of committing a ceteris paribus fallacy yourself. Vayne has incredibly high-scaling base stats. She has a fat steroid on her R, along with stealth (which is kind of overbearing to play against, considering that pinks aren't that common an occurrence and the upgraded sweeper has garbage range). She doesn't have to proc Silver Bolts to be useful in teamfights. If we're going to run with your assumption that all other things are equal, then she'll have the same high-damaging items in the late game as any other carry, and she'll still have her Silver Bolts as a cherry on top. Her kit addresses her weaknesses pretty well, too: her low range is compensated by her high mobility within small spaces--she has a large movement speed buff as well as a low-cooldown tumble, both of which get heavily augmented when she turns on her ult. She can poke the tower with a couple autos and immediately tumble away during sieges, especially if you have a prominent frontline. In a "proper teamfight", that very frontline should keep the enemy frontline tangled up long enough for her to put 3 autos into each target as she goes along. I'm not sure if you've ever played ADC, but it's actually rare that you just auto somebody once or twice and then move on to the next target. If you're just hitting whoever's closest and switching targets as proximity or threat value changes, you should be getting something like 4 or 5 autos per target.

Does she have a powerful mid-game? Yes, and that's what slingshots her to her even more powerful late game. She hits her first item spike (Bilgewater Cutlass) a full 150g sooner than a BF Sword-dependent ADC. She hits her second massive item spike in Blade of the Ruined King a full 600g before an Infinity Edge-dependent ADC. She doesn't need the crit and extra AD because of the %max HP true damage on her W and the AD steroid on her R. This gives her a dominant yet safe laning phase with high sustain (from the Cutlass) which translates into powerful mid-game skirmishing (from BotRK), which finally translates into a late-game presence to be reckoned with--she'll hit full build faster than any other ADC because of a cheaper first item which allows her to perform better throughout the game and thus accrue more gold, faster.

Add all of this to the fact that BotRK is currently unbalanced and far too good of item.

Disregarding all that, how about just the eye test? Just eyeballing Vayne as a champion and how she performs in the late game. Have you played against a late game, 6-item Vayne? That alone should tell you all you need to know about her hypercarry potential.

DisulfiramOct 13, 20151 votes

A good post, thank you.

Yes, I play ADC. Yes, I played against Vaynes, with mixed results (won a game as Galio, lost a lane hard as Cait+Soraka vs Jarvan+Vayne, won a lane hard as Cait+Morg vs Vayne+Leona, etc). I even played Vayne myself a few times.

You're right, she has good steroids and self-safety tools, which allow her to do very well against lone divers or teams with low mobility and CC; yet her short range means that CC and/or strong engages will easily hit her as long as she wants to be relevant in the fight. I mean, Ezreal can still Q without getting in most stun ranges, Caitlyn can even autoattack without getting too close to many hard CCs... Vayne cannot. Her max range is her autoattack range. If there's for example a Warwick in the enemy team, her Q and Stealth won't matter: if she comes in range to auto, she's getting suppressed no matter what. Champions like Jinx and Kog, who as far as I know are considered hypercarries too, can on the other hand still contribute to the fight while at least forcing said Warwick to dive deep into the enemy backlines if he wants to suppress them.

Which also means she's weaker than other ADCs during sieges: Ezreal can poke without getting caught, Caitlyn can poke or hit a tower without getting caught, Kog is the undisputed king of sieges amongst ADCs, etc... Vayne on the other hand can hit the tower safely only if her team already drove the enemies back, and cannot poke safely at all against most champions.

As for the silver bolts not proccing at all during teamfights you're right, it's likely exaggerated, but I was trying to illustrate the point that it's an unreliable damage source during fights, risky to proc consistently and way too delayed compared, for example, to the upfront damage of a Draven Axe or a Graves Buckshot.

ToasteyOct 13, 20153 votes

What you're describing is niches and champion identities. You've put forth that Ezreal has good (if not the best) poke. You've said that Caitlyn, Jinx, and Kog have a long standoff range. But what's Vayne's niche? Her strength? You said you can't speak to strengths without addressing weaknesses, but the opposite is also true. Vayne is undeniably the best duelist, skirmisher, and split pusher among all ADC's. Nobody has the same level of combined excellence in these areas, especially ceteris paribus. Different ADC identities lead to different team compositions, and a comp centred around Vayne makes her an almost unstoppable late game threat.

PS I don't think Kog is the king of sieges. I'd give the title to maybe Trist or Jinx. Kog is more like a well-rounded ball of raw damage who can deal lots of damage in lots of situations.

DisulfiramOct 13, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toasted Pigeon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pgVejZxA,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-10-13T10:21:43.388+0000)

But what's Vayne's niche? Her strength? You said you can't speak to strengths without addressing weaknesses, but the opposite is also true. Vayne is undeniably the best duelist, skirmisher, and split pusher among all ADC's. Nobody has the same level of combined excellence in these areas, especially ceteris paribus.

You answered it yourself: to me, it seems that Vayne's niche is dueling and splitpushing. And this is part of my problem: if I consider other champions looking for analogues, I find Shaco, Tryndamere... strong champions, even lategamers, that still are not considered hypercarries.

ToasteyOct 13, 20153 votes

Tryndamere held the title of hypercarry once upon a time, but that has largely gone away now that kiting melee champions is so easy. Vayne is considered a hypercarry where those two are not because she's on the kiting side of the coin, not the kited. The whole issue of kiting and its relative power in League is actually closely tied with the game's core mechanics, and is the underlying reasons for a whole host of issues within the game. The Juggernaut reworks are fundamentally centred around whether or not you can kite them. The issue of too many dashes (read: Kalista) and overt mobility (read: Riven) tie directly into kiting. The entire discrepancy and power gulf between ranged and melee champions goes allllllllllllllllllll the way back to the Alpha test of League of Legends when the game devs decided to removed character turn rates, thus instantly buffing ranged champions into a position of disgustingly high power. It's a very old piece of historical context, but an important one nonetheless.

There's a cycle that's been repeating itself in this game for 5 years now: ---ADC's kite tanks ---Assassins rise to prominence b/c they can pop ADC's ---Bruisers rise to prominence b/c they can duel assassins ---Tanks rise to prominence b/c they can peel bruisers ---Back to step 1 and repeat

DisulfiramOct 13, 20151 votes

Makes sense, thank you.

colesyOct 13, 20151 votes

because late game she 3-shots your carries and 3-shots your tanks as well

DisulfiramOct 13, 20151 votes

Isn't that a prerogative of any ADC? I mean, look for example at Graves : he can burst down both carries before even actually starting to autoattack...

Even against tanks, he's still better off: Vayne's Silver Bolts do 100 true damage per autoattack on average against a tank with 3000 HP. Graves' Q does (max) 360+150% bonus AD on an AoE... even on a 200 Armor tank, that's 120+50% bonus AD if he does not have any penetration.

If you factor in LW's penetration and a possible bonus AD of 200, you get 388 damage dealt from Graves' Q versus the 300 from Vayne's W; and this is, sorry if I'm repetitive, against a 3000 HP, 200 Armor tank.

AhurathOct 13, 20151 votes

First of all Graves has shorter range then Vayne and all of his abillties can be counterd with armro, max health true damage can't be counterd by anything.

DisulfiramOct 13, 20151 votes

I've just done the math using a high health, high armor tank...

Also, Graves' autoattack range is very close to Vayne's (525 vs 550) and his abilities all can outrange Vayne (though using Buckshot at max range halves its damage).

Cowgirl EdOct 13, 20151 votes

she isn't anymore, she is considered the hypercarry of the game, no lategame, no earlygame, just the game

AhurathOct 13, 20151 votes

Because her silverbolts do max health % true damage which can't be counterd by any item. She also has a huge ad steroid on her q and her ultimate. Combine that with invisibillity,2.0 attack speed and you got yourself a adc that if left open will kill your entire team.

DisulfiramOct 13, 20151 votes

You aren't even considering the points I made... her W is weaker than other damage abilities even versus high HP tanks (did the math in a post a little higher in this thread) and in fights an ADC should never focus a single target for long unless s/he's diving Vayne alone and is never backing off, which is a huge mistake against any ADC.

Other carries have even better steroids (just compare it to Miss Fortune's W) with the additional benefit of better range and/or AoE in their kits, yet they are not considered hypercarries...

AhurathOct 13, 20151 votes

no it isn't, the combination of tubmle and MAX health true damage is insane. If you don't kill vayne or cc her / exhaust her she will kill your entire team faster then the other adc will.

She has ad steroid on her q whichi is also used to dodge stuff at the same time, her ultimate has a flat ad steroid on it. No adc does more damage then vayne single target.

AhurathOct 13, 20151 votes

And I'm not saying that she can't be counterd. She has a poor early game and that can be exploited. But trying to argue Vaynes lategame is like arguing if the sun is bright, it's true.

TyroneWatermelonOct 13, 20151 votes

Because she got the highest scaling attack speed,4.4 for no reason,huge damage buff(Q) on 2 sec cooldown,max hp true damage that she does nothing for it but right click,mobility and self peel plus a faint steriod of 12 seconds,all that while she does the same damage to ranks as to squishies,and ridiciusly easy to play for how much power she got.

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