We're going to nerf the entire JG! That way, the OP junglers are the only ones able to be played - rito 2017
Seriously, nerfing the entire jg isn't going to make Vi or Kha not be played. It's just going to push out all the junglers that ALREADY stuggle in the jg. Thus, making the problem worse.
And let's be honest, once the see how weak the other junglers, what are they going to do? Yaaaay throw more damage on them!! Whoo damage creep!!
ProfDrDeath42 votesThey nerf the jungle first to avoid problems down the road, as jungler performance overall was imbalanced and out of the norm. More info on that here:
http://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/2017/01/dev-on-state-of-the-game-january-2017/
In the pre-season we made changes to jungle camp rewards and respawn times. Those changes were intended to cap total jungle farm potential, pushing some junglers with farm-heavy playstyles to interact more with other players (primarily ganking and counter-jungling). Looking at the game right now, however, we believe we’ve increased gank frequency too much and need to pull it back.
A big issue last season in the jungle was the strength of farm-heavy junglers and the farm-heavy playstyle. Remember Nidalee who got hammered the whole season for her strength with that playstyle...and was still a major pick in World's? With 100% Pick/Ban?
Even after only 2 days on 7.2, looking at different jungle champions shows the effect of the nerfs. For example, Kindred's performance data trends upwards in a major way (Link ), as does Fiddle's (Link ) and Graves (Link ). Conversely, aforementioned Vi trends downwards (Link ), as is Hecarim (Link ).
ModAcademy Kayn8 votesIt's like fixing a Giant hole in a damn, and then patching up the small cracks around it. Repairing the small cracks while ignoring the giant hole still leaves the big hole.
Sinlaire6 votesgood analogy. but here's a thought. what if you fix the hole and leave the cracks, only to have the cracks create a new hole?
Rito has learned a lesson here that no one wants to admit. They're terrified of pulling a Sejuani on the currently strong junglers.
If Rito were to blast all the of jungle outliers right now, realise that they need to keep retuning the jungle (as they currently are) to create more wide spread thought process and less "agency", then what then? It will be compounding nerfs on the strong that will leave them in a weakened state they might not be willing to revert. IE Sejuani.
they dont want to destroy the strong junglers. They want to balance them appropriately.
Rito will bring them into line once nearly everyone has found a happy medium in the jungle. if they do it that way then there wont be hardly any good or bad at all. If they hammer the big guys right now, then they go from strong to weak after further changes and just create further imbalance.
DarkinPrime2 votesRiot doesn't know what they want. Too many chiefs running around that company. too much autonomy in departments. The game never is balanced because as Riot is right now, they aren't capable of it.
PiVoRx5 votesI would say 2 days is not enough to say if changes where good or not, and tbh i dont see any difference, maybe cause i still see rotation of only the most broken junglers
Sire Hippington13 votesYes and no, as the aim of that change was not to balance junglers against each other. Irrelevant of direct champion balance, jungle as a POSITION is imbalanced against other positions like top or duolane-carry. The juangle as position has ti much impact on the game currently, and nerfing the entire jungle helps with that problem.
However, that certainly doesn't change the fact that jungle position in terms of champion balance is pretty bad as a few simply broken junglers are top-tier, and the rest is prettymuch unplayable, atleast in high elos. The strange idea that a jungler can be allowed to clear fast and sustained while haveing strong ganks, good dueling and mapmobillity/escapes and objectivecontroll early on and still be balanced is just wrong, but that's what top tier junglers have to bring to the table since S3....Jungle is a postion that has huge impact early in the game, allowing some champs to have all strengths and no real weakness early on in the jungle simply doesn't work, no matter how much they fall off later on.
Qepu12 votesRight, every update they do something to fuck with the jungle even more, last update was less exp from jungle monsters, now this update they're stronger, its just messing with the system man.
Liofa8 votesThey put a silver who goes around making excuses for his rank in charge of the jungle. Clearly they don't give half a fuck.
vOmvbrawfU4 voteswut?
Liofa3 votesyou know who riot fearless is?
vOmvbrawfU3 votesNope, not a clue.
Spaceman5pff2 votes10/10 finding nemo name just noticed
RecessHero42 votes[{quoted}](name=Tyrian Purple,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pe70XVqt,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-01-26T14:55:36.914+0000)
They put a silver who goes around making excuses for his rank in charge of the jungle. Clearly they don't give half a fuck.
Bill Belichick never played in the NFL. Many of the best coaches ever in their respective sports never played anything close to professional level. You don't need to be a great player to have a good mind for something. Your argument is trash.
CancerBasedGod8 votesThis change is going to push Rammus out of the jungle because of his bad early game clear. Also Amumu for sure, and probably many others.
vOmvbrawfU10 votesAnd Kha and Vi, etc. are still going to be played every game. Because Vi's issue isn't that she can clear jg quick. The problem is that she dive with CC and can 100-0 the enemy carries with point and click abilities while being tanky enough to do so. Making jg harder for other champs isn't going to change that.
RecessHero7 votes[{quoted}](name=Sharkbait ohaha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pe70XVqt,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-01-26T17:10:17.578+0000)
And Kha and Vi, etc. are still going to be played every game. Because Vi's issue isn't that she can clear jg quick. The problem is that she dive with CC and can 100-0 the enemy carries with point and click abilities while being tanky enough to do so. Making jg harder for other champs isn't going to change that.
I think you missed the huge nerf to CoC this patch. Vi's strength will be greatly reduced.
Glory ln Death13 votesNo, Vi's issue was that she could clear the jungle quickly while maintaining high health for powerful, low risk ganks. That allowed her to gank frequently with little risk, or allowed her to counter jungle with equally low risk.
Increasing the difficulty of the jungle in areas she is weak in (AOE camps) means she'll take longer to clear (less frequent ganks) and she won't come out as healthy (riskier ganks). Or, she can decide to avoid those camps for healthier ganks, but lose a lot of experience to do so.
Ravore3 voteswill definitely be squishier for lower hp junglers too like evelynn. I don't agree with this change but riot is going to kill the jungle once again. It's going to be stupid to imagine gromp doing as much damage as early game raptors when raptors are literally skipped by almost every jungler because of how strong they are early even with aoe
LeonLye3 voteswill definitely be squishier for lower hp junglers too like evelynn. I don't agree with this change but riot is going to kill the jungle once again. It's going to be stupid to imagine gromp doing as much damage as early game raptors when raptors are literally skipped by almost every jungler because of how strong they are early even with aoe
Alright. I'm sure it's just you who don't know how to play the new jungle. With jungle changes, routes are obviously going to change.
Not every jungle camp got nerfed mind you. Red, Blue, Raptors and scuttle did not get nerfed, which is why the evelynn in the video chose that route.
Virgin Ray5 votes "They can't keep up!"
ModCaptainMårvelous5 votesFew problems with your assessment:
You're asking for a second Sejuani situation.
vOmvbrawfU4 votesYou're asking for a second Sejuani situation.
No, I'm not. Because I'm not asking for jg to be nerfed and Vi to be nerfed. I'm asking to nerf the problamatic junglers so that every not OP jungler is going to be fucked.
LankPants2 votesYou're asking for a second Sejuani situation.
No we're not, we're asking for the top of the role to be nerfed without nerfing the bottom of the role. I'd have preferred no systematic changes and just nerfs to top junglers. I'm not calling for any champ to be treated like Sejuani was, I'm calling for the top tier to be nerfed with no further changes, this needs to happen anyway, just look at what's happening with Kha'zix, Rengar and Lee Cancer on this patch.
What's actually causing the Sejuani situation is Riot nerfing weak junglers when they are weak.
Kha/Vi weren't "dominating" the jungle before the changes were made. They got there BECAUSE of the changes.
Kha'zix got a rework at the exact same time as the jungle, it's that rework that's making him overpowered. There is no question about this, Kha is an incredibly overpowered champion and needs large direct nerfs, he already has a direct nerf on the PBE.
CotC, something Vi used a lot, was nerfed as well.
CotC was also something that an entire class of weak junglers use, tank junglers. This is as much of a nerf to them as it is to Vi if not more since Vi always has other options.
With buffs spawning later, as well as honeyfruit, Kha can't rush for an easy gank/invade.
And yet his winrate is spiking on this patch, it's almost like it doesn't matter if the game favours him heavily or not, he's just a bullshit champion.
AoE clear camps, being wolves and raptors, weren't touched.
Yes, let me do a Buff>Wolves>Raptor>Buff clear and never look at Gromp or Krugs. That sounds like an optimal way to play an EXP reliant jungler.
PrinceOfStorms2 votesI'm not calling for any champ to be treated like Sejuani was,
I am. Lee Sin and Vi can go rot at 10% winrate.
OHminus1 votes...that isn't something you would wish on any champion.
Would you be happy if Riot suddenly announced they were going to nerf Nida/Liss so hard that they would be unplayable (or any other champ you enjoy)? This is a two way street.
PrinceOfStorms1 votesThey already did nerf Nid so hard that she was unplayable. She's barely playable now after the buffs but she was absolute garbage for a really long time because of the crippling nerfs they gave her.
OHminus1 votesNot my point.
Point is, everybody plays certain champs (yes, even Urgot), and if any champ got gutted that hard, that portion of the playerbase would be pretty furious.
The Lee Sin playerbase would probably be even more furious, but that's besides the point.
PrinceOfStorms1 votesThe Lee Sin playerbase would probably be even more furious, but that's besides the point.
That is the point. The Lee Sin playerbase should have a taste of what Azir, Nidalee, and other champions that get gutted so hard their winrate drops over 10% get.
But no, Riot refuses to touch him because he "brings healthiness to the game" despite being meta, or at the very least good, in every season since his release. Lee has literally never been bad.
OHminus1 votesExcept that he has. Lee had a 46 percent winrate in bronze - gold for a good portion of season 5 and was utter trash in soloQ (unless in diamond/challenger). Considering a vast majority of the playerbase is in bronze-gold, the vast majority of the Lee playerbase experienced a bad champion in s5. Just because Lee's always a competitive pick doesn't mean he's always a good champion.
Vi's almost the complete opposite - has never dropped below a 49 percent winrate in soloQ but never gets played in competitive due to her one dimensional diving style. Then again, Vi has never been top-tier until preseason 7 (the last time she was top tier was in s4).
As a former sej player, I get your point. Thing is, wishing for other champs to get gutted just because yours were is pretty immature thinking. That's like wishing a healthy person gets cancer just because you have cancer. Pretty unsound logic, isn't it?
Venomar4 votesSo if champion A comes out of the jungle with 50% health and champion B with 100%. Champion A will now come out with 25% and B with 75%.
Dunno bout ya'll but I'm still ganking 2v1 or 3v2 and a level advantage with 75% health in most situations. I guess now I can counter invade harder and steal more farm because champ A is FORCED to back rather than having "enough" health to still make a few plays and stick around.
If the changes they want to implement actually happen, then the jungle disparity will become exponentially wider. Vi has too much clear speed with too much health left over. Ok, but there's 30 other Champs that dont, and when you nerf the jungle, and make it harder on her, it doesn't magically become easier for them.
If these style of changes go through you'll see old ww levels of early game ineptitude and instead of a heavy gank presence it'll become "pick a top tier jungle or its 4v5" because I can guarantee that every jungler with a weak clear is just going to get invaded and hammered repeatedly and forcefuly(more than now) over and over in the early game until they're so behind they're useless, in addition to the lanes being shit on because now that enemy Vi is coming from deep within your own jungle for gank instead of out of the enemy jungle.
abbbez4 votesThey keep doing this mistake over and over again. Like seriously just give these weak junglers some extra damage against monsters excluding lane minions in case that would make them really strong in the lane. There problem solved.
deadlychuck4 votesTo be fair, the jungle does need to be nerfed. The jungle itself pushes out quite a few champions but just being impossible to reasonably clear.
Yes, the OP junglers need to get nerfed still, but if you were to just nerf the OP junglers now you'd just end up with a useless position.
ZeeWolfZ4 votes
Doesn't care
ChaddyFantome2 votes
Papa Ivern, Supporting the entire team from the safety of the jungle. Clear speeds? what are those? he just walks up and takes yo cash and leaves.
What a god.
RollsRoyc34 votesRiot denies it but they do force different metas. Until that meta becomes stale and pros begin to just get boring with the same cycle.
As soon as they want to spice up pro-play they switch the Meta around from junglers like Vi and Kha to tanks. Eventually they'll move around the meta again.
They don't want to admit it. But this game is directly balanced around the pros and the casuals suffer the most.
ApexInTheCircle3 votesRiot denies it but they do force different metas. Until that meta becomes stale and pros begin to just get boring with the same cycle.
As soon as they want to spice up pro-play they switch the Meta around from junglers like Vi and Kha to tanks. Eventually they'll move around the meta again.
They don't want to admit it. But this game is directly balanced around the pros and the casuals suffer the most.
It's sad that a GAME is balanced around the pro scene. I get it though, they're a company and they're here to make money but FFS you're a game company not a fucking NFL sponsor.
GayFluffyUnicorn3 votesAfaik the LCS doesn't even net riot any money infact they put in a lot of money without big rewards so from season to season they try to make profit from lcs by catering towards it because they see a decreasing playerbase without realizing this playerbase is sinking because everyones fed up with these bullshit patches
Lugg3 votesIt's the same problem game wide, you can't have tanky champs that do lots of damage or champs that have dominant games early who never really fall off.
EROTIC RAID BOSS3 votestheir diagnosis is that junglers in general have been op. which is totally true. it was a huge problem.
nerfing the OP junglers is something going on too.
ChaddyFantome3 votesOutside of the general consensus that the jungle in its entirety is a just a bit too OP, i thinK Riot must be thinking that with the OP junglers being less able to take the game by the jugular, they might become less prevalent by sheer fact that "if they can't farm and gank so much, maybe playing a more farm heavy or tanky jungler won't be as much of a missed opportunity".
Like, since these junglers wont be able to clear as efficiently and gank as often, maybe the ones that were being pushed out won't be as underwhelming in comparison.
I can't imagine that the jungle changes will affect the lower tier junglers nearly as much as the top dogs atm, since they won't be as much on an HP deficit as them.
this is all just my speculation of course.
Dominick Destine2 votesI have to admit, my 
clears are SIGNIFICANTLY worse now..... way to go Riot, I might have to actually change mains for the first time in 7 years.
ChaddyFantome2 votes[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pe70XVqt,comment-id=001c,timestamp=2017-01-27T06:23:44.033+0000)
I have to admit, my
Its Okay. Eve is gonna get a rework soon and I'm sure she will be tuned to the jungle accordingly <3
OHminus2 votesOr Riot will screw up and make her go mid lane.
...yea, that's what I expect at this point.
ChaddyFantome2 votesOr Riot will screw up and make her go mid lane.
...yea, that's what I expect at this point.
Doubtful. her passive stealth is core to her entire design. While im sure she will be situationally able to go mid (she technically always has) I doubt her being primarily tuned for jungle is goign anywhere anytime soon.
UkeNeverSeme2 votesActually the new jungle seems to be one of the coolest things for jng in a long time. Il saying that as a jng main who hit d4 last season. It rewards skill, and theres a large amount of different playstyles you can use, and you have to thinka lot about champ/rune/mastery setup depending on what your playstyle is. Also a lot of "top tier jungles" (last patch) dont actually enjoy the buffed camps. I know rengar and khasix dont. Vi still too strong definately, but this actually opens up for sustain junglers to fight early game junglers again, through hp advantafe, just like they're supposed to. Definately a buff for champs like xin zhao. Aatrox, volibear, udyr etc. Not saying any of these are gonna be top tier, but it opens up for rito to balance the jungle better in the coming patches, and personally i think the current jungle might be the best ive seem yet.
agbudar1 votesi was a decent tank jungler in s6 i completely gave up on jg this season. when i felt the changes and the mindset they had on jg as a whole i knew it was gonna be a downward spiral.
i hate having to pick sustain monsters just to be able to do a first clear safely.
are far too easy to counter jungle at this point that its a complete waste of time to even try.
they were already struggling with their first clear in season 6
spend too much time trying to master those tank junglers to now throw em in a ditch for some hyper bs
Fowus1 votesyou don't need to be a sustain monster if your team gives you a decent leash
LankPants1 votesYour team can't give you a decent leash anymore without setting themselves behind.
Fowus2 votesyes they can
LankPants2 votesNot without a huge tradeoff. By leashing more than a couple of hits now you cede lane pressure to your opponents. That's OK if you're jungler packs early pressure because they can always gank for you to get it back, but if you're leashing for a Sej or Amumu you're basically sacrificing your own lane.
This might not matter in bronze, but even in low gold a player will punish you if they get a level before you. With the 3 extra seconds wasted on this patch leashing now comes with a huge risk of losing EXP, so people just won't leash as hard.