Why was Sword of the Occult removed but not Mejais?

vOmvbrawfU·Jan 9, 2017·63 votes·11,581 views

Just wondering. Was playing a game as an AD champ and asked why there wasn't an AD version of Mejais. Was told there was but it was removed.

Y dey do dat?

93 Comments

KraDEsluP282Jan 9, 201720 votes

Sword of the occult was a bad item. Champs that wanted it were champs that have high AD ratios without need for other stats as much (eliminates essentially all non draven ADCs) while also being safe enough that they could keep the stacks. Pretty much what this meant was it was OK on non teamfighting based high AD pick champs... AKA rengar. The item was just not a good buy except for smurfs or people messing around with fun builds. Riot said they want to remove items that just really are never optimal, and SOTO fits. Mejais is different, because many of the champs that buy Mejais are much safer, and more champs make use of a huge amount of AP than a huge amount of AD (largely because raw AP is also useful for high utility champs). AP assassins with Mejais generally have lots of mobility + can buy zhonyas for survivability. Champs like Lux/Janna are stupid safe and can stack it quickly. It's not an amazing item on everyone, but there's a good number of cases where you could argue it's optimal, so it got to stay I completely agree with the decision. SOTO was never built outside of smurfs or people going for stupid/greedy builds. Mejais is a good item.

vOmvbrawfUJan 9, 201710 votes

You say they removed sword because it was built on champs that were safe enough to keep the stacks and that was a bad thing. Then you say Mejais is good because it's built on safe mages.

EschetonJan 9, 20175 votes

{quoted}

You say they removed sword because it was built on champs that were safe enough to keep the stacks and that was a bad thing. Then you say Mejais is good because it's built on safe mages.

Imagine full tank rengar with an ad Majais. Now try to imagine a similar situation for an ap champ. Then wonder why that doesn't already happen. Now consider that there was a tank version also, I'm on a horse.

DrCyanideJan 9, 201717 votes

Mejai's users can contribute to the team fight while still playing safe. Lux can shield the front line, throw out ults, etc to contribute.

Sword of the Occult users didn't really have that luxury. They either play safe or they play to contribute, but never both.

As a result, Sword wasn't something you picked up because of how you planned to play, but rather it was an item you picked up if you just happened to be ahead. Your enemy had someone who was feeding, so you'd pick it up and stack it by ganking them over and over again, while you wouldn't have bought that item or played that way had both teams been even.

Earl EulrichJan 9, 20177 votes

which makes SotO high risk>high reward...which is kinda fine, thouhg i still don´t like it because we really don´t need more snowballing.

and

which makes Mejai´s low risk>high reward..which certainly isn´t fine any way you try to justify it.

So if we have to keep one of the two, SotO is way healthier for the game actually.

AbyssphereJan 9, 20172 votes

SotO is healthier for the game because it's significantly riskier than an item that's already considered too risky to be bought in the vast majority of the games? Why is "Let's make something already too snowbally EVEN MORE SNOWBALLY!" good design in your opinion? Mejai's is comparatively low risk only when you look at it alongside Sword of the Occult, and it's comparatively low in reward when taken against that too. That doesn't change it being extreme in both risk and reward.

Seriously, Mejai's is arguably unhealthy but in no word is it anywhere close to being worse than SotO was. Your problem is for some reason deciding to equate "More functional" with "More unhealthy".

Sire HippingtonJan 10, 20174 votes

He didn't say that SotO is good design, he said that out of the two snowball items, Soto is healthier, because it's actually high risk, high reward. Whenever Meja's is used, it's low risk, high reward, which is bullshit to face, so it's even more problematic.

AbyssphereJan 10, 20171 votes

I only claimed that he said that SotO being significantly more snowbally makes it good design in comparison to Mejai's. I still find that to be problematic. Mejai's is significantly lower risk than SotO, but you (and him? Not sure why I'm suddenly conversing with two people) have never actually had SotO used effectively against you if you think it is the more problematic item. Is it difficult to get those 25 stacks off of Lux? Yeah, it's far from the easiest thing in the world and might feel a bit cheesy. Good thing most of the value of her stacks isn't guaranteed, then. Do you think playing against Mejai's Lux is a worse experience than trying to get 25 stacks off of Rengar would have been? If your answer is "Yes", your imagination is failing you.

There is a reason SotO is gone and Mejai's isn't, and it's not "Riot are idiots". Maybe being hyper-binary even when compared against what was already easily the second most binary item in the game wasn't actually a good thing.

Sire HippingtonJan 10, 20173 votes

I play since preseason 1, i've been around in the days of tripple snowball items, and i can assure you that shutting down a YI or Rengar with SotO is way easier than getting meja's stacks off a Lux or Janna. They remain squishy and need to go in deep, the likes of lux and janna stay far away from any danager while still haveing vast impact with the cheap ap from Meja's, and the extra ms makes it even harder to everr catch em.

AbyssphereJan 10, 20171 votes

Yes, and that is why the item is bad. Mejai's is not total trash because there's some hope of keeping stacks. Making SotO not total trash would have necessitated the same, at which point it becomes a lot harder to get the stacks off than it is for Mejai's users.

DrCyanideJan 10, 20175 votes

It makes SotO "don't buy unless it's a low risk, high reward scenario", meaning you only buy it when you will snowball. That's the difference.

Earl EulrichJan 10, 20174 votes

just that there´s never low risk for a melee in this game, even whe nyou are far ahead - you still need to get close to (ab)use the item. Shutting down a Lux or Sona or the likes with a stacked Mejai´s though is fairly impossible unless theys screw up hard themselves, thus the way worse scenario to play against - thus a much bigger source of frustration.

Snowball items just shouldn´t even exist to begin with - but if they have to exist it must at least be fairly possible to shut them down.

Sire HippingtonJan 10, 20173 votes

And how would that make it different from Meja's??? Wih Meja's you even have the dark seal that gives you an nice indicator on when you are snowballing enough for Meja's. You can just start with it, and once it's at 10 stacks, you can upgrade it to Mejas as your certainly already snowballing, and with 10 stacks already Meja's directly is goldefficient, so vry low risk with potentially massive reward.

Really, i haven't seen a single Meja's beeing bought on someone that didn't already snowball and had quite decent safety in his kit. Dark seal+Meaj's is just a horrible design.

DrCyanideJan 10, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Cingulum,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TAHru4Xx,comment-id=000100000001000000010001,timestamp=2017-01-10T11:37:36.150+0000)

And how would that make it different from Meja's???

See my first post - people buying Mejai's can alter their play style to try to keep their stacks, SotO uses had to alter their target selection.

Earl EulrichJan 10, 20173 votes

yea sure, because the typical lux player would just flash forward into combat...but now he plays it totally differently because he has mejai´s. There´s a reason this item is mostly used on Champs that are very save to begin with.

(+save snowballing is really not a playstyle that should be supported ever.period.)

Sire HippingtonJan 10, 20173 votes

Just as Don Eulrich said, The champs that use Mejas don't change theit playstyle a bit, as it's almost exclusively used by very save champions, and thx to dark seal they don't even have a risky initial investment.

OglafJan 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Pretty much what this meant was it was OK on non teamfighting based high AD pick champs... AKA rengar.

Oh mawh gawhd.

Imagine the AD levels reworked Rengo could reach with one - LOL.

LîghtWeîghtJan 6, 20181 votes

problem is only AP champs can stack now. high risk>high return remained same since both items require survival to keep it. deleting only SOTO was a problem. if they had to, then mejai needed to be gone. Everybody could stack both ap and ad, now only ap can stack. That is not fair whatsoever. Velkoz, Brand,etc ap supp champs can do way more damage easily with mejai. Also, what you're mentioning as AD champs being such a high risk is not a problem with SOTO or Mejai. AD champs especially, assassins always have high risk where as AP does not. Now, AP can even stack on top of it. Mejai is only good item for AP and balance between ap and ad is not fair with your comparison. Whole point is not about utilities of using stacking-system item. You're just favoring AP champ side, not being neutral. Full tank mundo could've been benefiting from stacking items. Only Mejai is left and all items for tanks, ad are gone.

A Basic IslandJan 9, 20177 votes

poor leviathan :(

nobody remembers you

vOmvbrawfUJan 10, 20171 votes

What's that lol?

KhadaverJan 10, 20172 votes

same as mejai's/ occult but for hp

A Basic IslandJan 10, 20171 votes

This. Full stacks gave cdr.

Which was stupid because the champs that bought it whole purpose was to go in and die or hopefully survive

DemoGuideJan 10, 20172 votes

I believe full stacks granted % damage reduction mate. CDR was on mejais, and MS on the SOTO.

A Basic IslandJan 10, 20172 votes

i believe you are correct actually

but it was still a stupid item cus of what it did and who it was meant for

ImTheSideKickJan 10, 20171 votes

hmm it gave tanks (who the item was meant for) more hp and damage reduction.... seeing how tanks are meant to take damage and not dish out damage this was a wonderful item

A Basic IslandJan 10, 20171 votes

not really. in that day and age tanks actually died alot of the time. So a "tank" that built it and was actually getting it stacked was either

not doing their job

doing it way too sell

in theory its good, but when you remember most players are greedy and won't actually die for their team it's bad

but if they are dying it's not getting stacked

DemoGuideJan 11, 20171 votes

I remember i've been building it on Katarina. Mejai+Leviathan Kat surely was a thing. Sometimes i was even Mejai+Occult+Leviathan for a full stacking potential.

Maybe it was the main reason Leviathan got removed. It was better on someone who is not actually a tank, and after it got fully stacked you simply couldn't focus main enemy carries.

Also, as i remember, it was somehow better at stacking than Mejai/Occult. It was gaining extra value on assists or something i believe.

ChaoticPineconeJan 10, 20173 votes

A stacking item for HP that gave (i think) the second most HP in the game at the time and a 15% damage reduction at max stacks. The age old SivHD quote - what is the Leviathan's weakness? Dying. What did Leviathan prevent? Dying.

Thats why it was the first to be removed.

ImTheSideKickJan 10, 20171 votes

that 15% damage reduction would be welcomed in this game of every on gets massive damage for free from masteries

ChaoticPineconeJan 10, 20171 votes

But think of how it works.

A defensive snowball option that loses stacks on deaths - well, you arent going to buy it when youre dying a lot. Youre only going to be buying it when that "massive damage for free from masteries" still isnt enough to kill you, cause then you actually live to get stacks. But if they couldnt kill you before, they definitely cant kill you after you get the stacks. By the time you hit the 15% damage reduction, youre surviving for so long that you dont need the 15% damage reduction (And its already impossible to kill you).

It wasnt even a risk-reward item like mejais. Its a 100% "after youre snowballing, snowball harder" item.

Big LincolnJan 9, 20176 votes

soto was just for assassins who were too fed to die

Mejais is bought on safe mages like Lux and Veigar, and Janna gets it too sometimes. it has more gameplay to it

vOmvbrawfUJan 9, 20173 votes

How does it have more gameplay, though?

SukishooJan 9, 20173 votes

Soto was just damage per stack. Yes, Mejai's does that too but it has others stats such as +200 mana, +20 ability power and +10% movement speed at 15 Glory.

AbyssphereJan 9, 20173 votes

His wording is awkward but he's right. SotO only worked when a champion was so fed that they were completely unstoppable and because all of those champions have undodgeable damage (auto attacks, melee range abilities), there was nothing you could do to avoid the damage given to them by SotO. Mejai's doesn't require you to be snowballing out of control to work and even if a champion gets a ton of stacks on it, they don't instantly murder everything in sight because you can actually avoid their damage. Some of the champions it's most viable on are even supports, and "Get lots of assists, stay safe; scale utility" is very inoffensive compared to "Get lots of kills, continue getting kills, one-shot everyone instantly with no chance of failure".

MunchCrunchLunchJan 9, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TAHru4Xx,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-09T17:36:24.994+0000)

soto was just for assassins who were too fed to die

Mejais is bought on safe mages like Lux and Veigar, and Janna gets it too sometimes. it has more gameplay to it

what?

ZephyrDrakeJan 10, 20175 votes

the main reason why SotO was removed and Mejai's was that there isn't anyone who is able to buy SotO and feel good about it, they would have to put themselves into danger constantly and one single mistake meant losing all the hard earned stacks you accomplished all because our champion has to put himself in a very dangerous position in order to utilize the AD it gave you effectively. Mejai's you have champions like Janna and Lux who actually feel good about buying the item since they rarely find themselves in a position in which they risk losing the stacks so they can make better use of what it gives you. AP itemization also allows you to build items that help you survive better whereas AD doesn't really have that, at least not in the same way AP itemization does.

vOmvbrawfUJan 10, 20171 votes

item 3139 item 3155

ZephyrDrakeJan 10, 20174 votes

{quoted}

and against other AD champions? and two items vs...

item 3116 item 3001 item 3157 item 3027 item 3030 item 3152 item 3151 ? all of them help you survive a bit longer and most of them against a wider array of champions than just AP ones

vOmvbrawfUJan 10, 20172 votes

I'll see you HP items, and raise you lifesteal.

ZephyrDrakeJan 10, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I'll see you HP items, and raise you lifesteal.

sure now tell me how many champions can use lifesteal effectively vs champions that can use HP effectively.

Also since you seem to just have ignored. There was no AD champion that felt good about building SotO, the only people who even bothered with it were smurfs that knew that they will never die against the people they were playing against. Mejai's has quite a few champions that actually feel good about buying the item, champions that even if they don't go using any of the items i listed they still would be fine with Mejais due to their kits allowing them to play safer than pretty much any AD with SotO could.

vOmvbrawfUJan 10, 20172 votes

So what you're saying is SoTO got removed because it was high risk/high reward, yet mejais stays because it's low risk/high reward. I'm failing to see the logic.

ZephyrDrakeJan 10, 20172 votes

{quoted}

So what you're saying is SoTO got removed because it was high risk/high reward, yet mejais stays because it's low risk/high reward. I'm failing to see the logic.

it was removed because it was high risk/no reward. When the item feels bad to build on EVERYONE and it has that huge of a cost for any misplay there is no point in keeping the item. Mejais has champions that feel good about buying it while SotO never had outside of smurfs so they don't count since they could build the stupidest things and still win.

ElishevaJan 9, 20173 votes

Because fuck melee champions, and the people that play them. --Riot.

AnidanJan 9, 20174 votes

The item was shit for melee, why even pick this item to complain about and make this comparison?

ElishevaJan 9, 20172 votes

Just because you weren't fully capable of utilizing it, doesn't mean it was shit on melee champions.

AnidanJan 9, 20179 votes

OH let me run down the list of who it was shit on:

Melee Carries
Bruisers
Tanks
most assassins

Who the hell was it aimed for? It was a garbage item. It wanted you to survive as long as possible while doing damage, but carries needed items that were more consistent since they were squishy and at risk of death constantly, bruisers wanted items that were more consistent and usually that gave some combination of offense and defense, assassins want items that were more consistent so their burst was reliable, tanks can't afford to have a shitty item. On nobody was this item a good idea. It encouraged solo pick offs because teamfights were too risky, which meant it was most likely going to be utilized on assassins - but the best AD assassin for solo picks at that time (Talon) wanted to teamfight just as much since he had good AoE damage, which meant he was at risk of dying with it. Rengar also could've used it, but he had more consistent items he bought instead.

The item was crap, and pretty much everyone in the community on the Forums, Reddit, and Boards agreed that it was crap. Coupled with its incredibly low purchase rate (less than 1% at all times), it wasn't even just the forums that thought it was crap. Everyone thought it was crap.

ElishevaJan 9, 20172 votes

Like I said. You personally having bad experience with it, or not being skilled enough to fully utilize it doesn't make it a bad item, it makes you poorly adaptable.

AnidanJan 9, 20177 votes

So... you're just going to sit there and say it's people's bad experience and lack of ability to adapt that resulted in a universal pick rate of less than 1% for the completely trash item?

lolk. Whatever, man.

Lord DroversonJan 10, 20173 votes

If I remember correctly, I think it was rarely ever purchased. Mejas had like 4x the % of purchases (or something like that).

Also, I remember reading the "victory" statistics on Soto. Most of the time when people purchased it, they lost. You wouldn't think it was true, but yeah.