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AD Jungle item...

Elite4Runner··6 votes·5,917 views

So, with all of these AD junglers that skip the jungle item to rush Tiamat, ...

Why not make the AD jungle item build out of Tiamat?

I'm going to go ahead and give one of the main reasons myself. .. Tiamat is melee only, so yeah that is a good reason.

Or make it so it has the same passive with a similar effect, like how Runic Echoes has the same ECHO passive as Luden's Echo.

I could have seen the argument here that Runic and Luden's had the same component item, Aether Wisp, but that is not the case anymore. So instead of building from Tiamat, it could still build from Caulfield's, but once you complete the jungle item, you get a Cleave passive.

I understand that this would kind of be a nerf to some and a buff to others, but I think it would be a good change.

Currently the Warrior enchant gives no passive and just gives AD. Obviously, adding a passive would be a buff to the item, so the AD would need to be lowered.

I'm sure people aren't going to like this, but I think it would actually be good for the game.

29 Comments

Wolf and Gun3 votes

I mean it would make sense, but Riot already has a tough time balancing junglers via their clear time. I think it would make some strong junglers super strong, and some weak ones who need it just average. I'd probably lower the damage but keep the passive. Like how bambi's cinder is weaker than sunfire cape. Also sunfire cape is the AOE item that Riot seems to want to support over Hydra.

CauseSCIENCE1 votes

agreed

Elite4Runner1 votes

I agree, but it seems to me like the champions that are skipping the jungle item in favor of Tiamat are already in the "super strong" category. They are basically already doing what I am suggesting, but they are either then continuing to get the jungle item or skipping it completely.

This would decrease the value of getting the jungle item AND Tiamat.

Wolf and Gun3 votes

From the sounds of it. It would only be giving the item faster for considerately less gold. Which is snowballing the problem as it it.

Elite4Runner1 votes

I don't think so. As I said, these champions are already rushing Tiamat. I personally prefer the idea of simply nerfing the AD on Warrior and adding the Cleave passive, so they would actually be delaying the Cleave buff because it takes 2625g to get the full Warrior enchanted jungle item, and 1200g Tiamat + 500g from their normal jungle start (including Hunter's Machete or Hunter's Talisman). With Cleave now being part of the jungle item, it would actually be a nerf in the gold value of then getting Tiamat afterward.

Then we need to consider the changes to the Cleave effect. As you mentioned, the Immolate passive, and the ECHO passives are scaled differently than their laning item counterparts.

I'm honestly not sure how this would be different. .. but it could certainly be done in a way that is balanced.

GodlyBane3 votes

ppl who kindred with AD instead of Attack speed???????

Warlord Rhinark3 votes

{quoted}

ppl who kindred with AD instead of Attack speed???????

Why would you take 60 AD and 10% cdr over 50% attack speed and 4% maximum health damage per auto?

GodlyBane1 votes

bc its a situational action? bro u need to keep an open mind

kindred is not standard one build adc type champ, she is SITUATIONAL 50% of ppl take 60 AD and 50% of ppl take 50% AS, its either preference, sitaution, etc

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

bc its a situational action? bro u need to keep an open mind

kindred is not standard one build adc type champ, she is SITUATIONAL 50% of ppl take 60 AD and 50% of ppl take 50% AS, its either preference, sitaution, etc

Yeah-

Well.

I guess you're right.

Chumpzi11a2 votes

I build tiamat on many junglers to delay my choice of enchantment. The anti scaling of warrior is only good if your team can snowball to the win. Building tiamat lets me get more information about how the teams match up so I can make a better decision between warrior/ravenous and cinder/titanic.

Elite4Runner1 votes

I actually really like that strategy. It is smart, .. but this is still adding to a lot of strength that can't really be matched by non-AD junglers. Honestly, a large portion of junglers are AD to start with, but I don't believe the significant power gap is really what Riot wants.

Chumpzi11a1 votes

Non ad junglers are tanks, evelynn and Elise. So eve and Elise both play more like a camp and a gank and an objective or back than a clear and something. I think that playstyle is what riot wants, because competitive jungle clearing is kinda boring and solvable(where the solutions lead to static team compositions). Also, runic shittyness is a terrible item.

Elite4Runner1 votes

Relying on camping and ganking for gold and experience leeches those resources from laners, putting your team behind if you aren't 100% successful. It is significantly more efficient for the jungler to be able to reliably clear jungle camps in order to gain their own gold and experience, and being able to do so quickly means they are able to apply and relieve pressure on lanes. You're right that there are only a handful of AP (non-tank) junglers, .. I would add Diana, Ekko, and Nidalee to the list, .. and I think it is honestly sad that they are at such a huge disadvantage in the meta.

Chumpzi11a1 votes

Yes, it does take gold and xp from your laners. It's also more team xp efficient for lane creeps. 1 person can get 100% xp or 2 people can get 70%. The laners can/should/will anyway take a camp and usually a buff on the way to wherever. The thing about ap junglers is they are all pretty oppressive when ahead and useless when behind. And they need to get ahead or they'll get outscaled by the ad. So I think hard-carry-or-else is a fine outcome for the champions. It's finding a team composition that makes them an appropriate choice that's rare right now.

Bonipherus1 votes

i miss spirit of the elder lizard. only needed to give 30 ad so power creep was lessened and it had a completely unique passive.

TakaDama1 votes

Doesn't this hurt Graves? Not sure tbh: I don't play Graves jg.

Warlord Rhinark3 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't this hurt Graves? Not sure tbh: I don't play Graves jg.

Graves is too strong. He deserves a nerf.

Elite4Runner1 votes

As Warlord said, Jungle Graves is way too strong at the moment, so nerfing him would actually be good.

But it doesn't necessarily need to. Tiamat is a melee only item, but this doesn't need to build out of Tiamat.

In theory, the Cleave passive could be applied by ranged attacks. I actually think the Crescent active from Tiamat and the items it builds into is the bigger issue for why they are melee only. Crescent gives the user an auto attack reset which is a really strong mechanic to give to a ranged champion without being built into their kit. I don't know if the jungle item should even have that.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

It would have to lose it's CDR component and a reduction in AD.

Elite4Runner1 votes

Idk that it would HAVE to lose the CDR, but doing so would preserve some of the AD. I still think that it would be a good trade off. As I mentioned, many junglers are rushing this option as it is, so it must be worth it.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Idk that it would HAVE to lose the CDR, but doing so would preserve some of the AD. I still think that it would be a good trade off. As I mentioned, many junglers are rushing this option as it is, so it must be worth it.

Yeah exactly.

People are rushing Tiamat because it's better than just flat AD and some CDR.

But if you make the item that gives AD and CDR build out of Tiamat, which means people have to use less gold to buy it, it has to have a downside.

Either, remove the CDR component.

Or reduce the AD it gives by a lot.

Zane Zephyr1 votes

The only people I've ever seen go straight into tiamat are udyr, trundle, ww, and reksai and that's because they can't clear the AOE camps fast and in reksais case she can proc it quickly and frequently with her Q

SwiftKitten881 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zane Zephyr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pbG9U8Ao,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-07-05T14:49:19.029+0000)

The only people I've ever seen go straight into tiamat are udyr, trundle, ww, and reksai and that's because they can't clear the AOE camps fast and in reksais case she can proc it quickly and frequently with her Q

the fact that RekSai even needs to build item 3077 when her Q is supposed to be a item 3077 effect is the reason why she is a trash champ now and why i stopped playing her

Elite4Runner1 votes

I've seriously seen this done on pretty much every melee jungler that scales remotely well with AD. ... which is pretty much all of them.

The AOE helps EVERYONE, even if you already have AOE built in, and the auto attack reset from the Crescent active is really efficient.

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

While it sounds good, it would cause some balance issues. In terms of how this would give some champions of a higher advantage in clear speed that Riot already somewhat struggles to balance out among the junglers.

Elite4Runner2 votes

THEY ARE ALREADY DOING IT!

The fact that people are rushing Tiamat is literally THE REASON that AD junglers are so strong at the moment. They gain a significant advantage in clear times because Tiamat is so much cheaper than completing their Warrior enchantment. Then they get an even better power spike when they finish Warrior.

This change would delay the power spike and clear speed for AD junglers ... which brings them more in balance.

SwiftKitten881 votes

LOL i get downvoted my statment here?. i LOVED playing rek'sai... she is the champ that made me LOVE to jungle. and the RUINED her. i HATE what they did to her!!! i LOVED her kit...

why u destroy her rito? [sg-janna]

Succubús GF1 votes

It would break a shit ton of bruisers

Elite4Runner1 votes

How do you figure?

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