Is skill cap a good weakness to put on a champion?

AhmCha·Sep 11, 2016·33 votes·2,343 views

I'm specifically asking because it seems like a lot of the champions that are deemed "cancerous" are defended by their players due to them having what is called a high skill cap. The problem is, I'm not sure that's a decent weakness, simply because it's a weakness that can be overcome. For example take when he's in a balanced state. When his numbers are OK there's seemingly nothing this guy can't do. What's stops everyone from picking him up and destroying is his skill cap. I personally think that weaknesses that can be exploited need to be part of the coding and not part of an arbitrary that varies from person to person. Iunno that's just a thought I had, but I could always be wrong. It's just that if the only thing stopping a champ from dominating everywhere he/she goes is that he/she takes some getting used to, I think that could be considered poor design.

75 Comments

Veigarisgod1Sep 11, 201623 votes

No. It's not. Anyone who learns a high skillcap champion well will destroy and carry everyone.

HaloDragonXSep 11, 201617 votes

This. There is no reason fir Azir to be a better Kayle because "he's harder" or Fiora to be a better Jax because "she's harder".

Bladerunner7777Sep 11, 20167 votes

Because harder champions tend to have more counterplay options????????

Easy champions don't always see high level play because they're counterplay is usually one dimensional (build this item, do this thing differently). Hard champions have more options to outplay which inherently means they have more options to be outplayed

sorry to burst your bubble

MunchCrunchLunchSep 11, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Because harder champions tend to have more counterplay options????????

Easy champions don't always see high level play because they're counterplay is usually one dimensional (build this item, do this thing differently). Hard champions have more options to outplay which inherently means they have more options to be outplayed

sorry to burst your bubble

what are your options to outplaying yasuo lol? or azir. or gangplank. yasuo. ban him. azir. ban him. gangplank. ban him

they can do a lot more than jax that doesn't have much counterplay in a 1v1. much easier to deal with jax

Bladerunner7777Sep 11, 20168 votes

Yasuo - During early laning phase if Yasuo slips up once it can easily be taken advantage of. In teamfights just exhaust Yasuo every time he ults.

Azir - Azir doesn't really have much counterplay and Riot realized this recently which is why Azir is currently sitting in the gutter now. He's a hypercarry that has tons of mobility + peel so "focus Azir" doesn't really work on him like it does for most other carries.

Gangplank - Hit his barrel before he does, it's really that simple. I never have a problem with this. Previously it didn't matter if you disarmed every barrel because his ult did a billion damage but Riot nerfed that so he's pretty balanced again.

Teridax68Sep 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yasuo - During early laning phase if Yasuo slips up once it can easily be taken advantage of. In teamfights just exhaust Yasuo every time he ults.

The first bit of advice relies on Yasuo first making a mistake for players to capitalize on, which doesn't really give players many options besides waiting for that to happen. Summoner spells as counterplay don't really work on champions, particularly those with low-cooldown ults, since there's a vast difference in uptime and the counterplay isn't exactly organic.

I'm not saying Yasuo has no counterplay -- he does, and despite what many say he can somewhat be bullied in lane via a AA + short wait + poke combo, but overall he has so much agency over his lane and his opponents, i.e. an ability to react to almost anything at any time, that it often comes at a cost to the agency of his opponents. Suddenly, it's not about playing the game with your champion, it's about watching Yasuo play his game and catching him if he allows himself to mess up.

{quoted}

Gangplank - Hit his barrel before he does, it's really that simple.

I'd say that's more difficult than it looks on many melee champions, particularly since Gangplank can detonate barrels from fairly long distances, whereas most top laners have to get within the barrel's explosion range first before they can dismantle it. There is some level of counterplay to his barrels -- he telegraphs them, so at worst you can move around them -- but that counterplay can often be superseded by some of his other mechanics (e.g. Gangplank setting up a barrel right next to him and using it to insta-detonate a barrel much farther ahead). Beyond that, it's difficult to gain an edge against Gangplank, because he can just naturally accrue an advantage via his Q gold generation, or his global ult. He's balanced, and I think he can be made entirely healthy, but he's not entirely at that point yet.

Bladerunner7777Sep 11, 20161 votes

Yasuo

So you're saying if you'e playing against Renekton/Riven/Pantheon/Darius that you should be able to dictate whenever you want to fight?

Lane bullies exist, (unfortunately) Yasuo can be a lane bully in certain matchups.

Like all the other champions I listed, you have to be patient in order to beat them; you can't just go in balls-deep and expect to dodge all of their abilities and come out ahead in the trade. That's just how these champions work.

Teridax68Sep 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So you're saying if you'e playing against Renekton/Riven/Pantheon/Darius that you should be able to dictate whenever you want to fight?

Obviously not; my point is that there should be at least some level of agency, so I think there should be at least some occasions when you'd get to gain an edge over those champions, in lane or otherwise.

{quoted}

Lane bullies exist, (unfortunately) Yasuo can be a lane bully in certain matchups.

A lane bully is a champion who's especially good at putting pressure on you in lane. It's not, or at least shouldn't be, a champion against whom you have little to no agency in lane. That Yasuo, a hyperscaling champion, also happens to be a lane bully in many matchups is not good, because that leads to a game where at no point do you really get to have an advantage over him, which is also what sometimes happens with Azir at high levels of play.

{quoted}

Like all the other champions I listed, you have to be patient in order to beat them; you can't just go in balls-deep and expect to dodge all of their abilities and come out ahead in the trade. That's just how these champions work.

I agree, and in my reply I mentioned poking, not trading, against Yasuo, though ultimately there are some cases where trading against him is advantageous, or should be in theory (e.g. his shield just popped and/or he doesn't have any Q stacks, while your abilities are off cooldown). The problem with Yasuo isn't that he punishes players for going balls deep (he often does that, but that's absolutely fine), it's that he gets a ton of safety in lane on top of free poke and waveclear, which means he usually has at least one powerful response to any opponent who tries to do anything against him, plus a ton of options to do stuff on his own initiative.

Bladerunner7777Sep 12, 20161 votes

I do agree that Yasuo is too much of a bully in lane this season (for being a hypercarry), I think it's a result of fervor

Maybe they should lower the on-hit damage of fervor for the first few levels but keep the later levels' damage

Papa SlothySep 11, 20163 votes

you can outplay a yasuo, everyone on the boards says it's impossible but it really isn't

MunchCrunchLunchSep 11, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Papa Slothy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pXAfkgQY,comment-id=00000000000000000002,timestamp=2016-09-11T07:09:31.840+0000)

you can outplay a yasuo, everyone on the boards says it's impossible but it really isn't

BUT yasuo has more outplay potential than you. if your outplay advice begins with "bait". your fucking bad. there aren't many champions with outplay potential. the only champ with more outplay potential than yasuo is probably Azir situationally.

TequilaZombieSep 11, 20162 votes

To be honest, you don't need more ways to outplay your oponent than he has to outplay you. You need one or two viable ways and you need to properly execute them. Baiting is an important part of outplay, not only for Yasuo, but for every champion.

You can bait Darius' Q, for example, and engage right after for an easy trade. You can bait most defensive ultimates by pretending to all in and retreating while keeping your important cooldowns up. You can bait Yasuo's Windwall by using an important (i.e. High dmg or CC) ability on him. Specially if his shield is down. Most QWE abilities have shorter cooldowns than Yas' wall, so it does leave plenty of room for abusing him later on.

But outplaying Yasuo can simply consist of having something as an summoner 3 or summoner 21 ready. Blinking over his Tornado is also an excelent choice for flashy champions. Fizz , Kassadin , and Zed come to mind.

There is counterplay to Yasuo, but it relies more in game knowledge (like setting up a good gank or zoning him out or picking your champions, summoner spells and items accordingly) than in mechanical skill. And I think this is where most of the rage against him comes from.

MunchCrunchLunchSep 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

To be honest, you don't need more ways to outplay your oponent than he has to outplay you. You need one or two viable ways and you need to properly execute them. Baiting is an important part of outplay, not only for Yasuo, but for every champion.

You can bait Darius' Q, for example, and engage right after for an easy trade. You can bait most defensive ultimates by pretending to all in and retreating while keeping your important cooldowns up. You can bait Yasuo's Windwall by using an important (i.e. High dmg or CC) ability on him. Specially if his shield is down. Most QWE abilities have shorter cooldowns than Yas' wall, so it does leave plenty of room for abusing him later on.

But outplaying Yasuo can simply consist of having something as an or ready. Blinking over his Tornado is also an excelent choice for flashy champions. , , and come to mind.

There is counterplay to Yasuo, but it relies more in game knowledge (like setting up a good gank or zoning him out or picking your champions, summoner spells and items accordingly) than in mechanical skill. And I think this is where most of the rage against him comes from.

what? how many champions have as much outplay potential as yasuo. name them please

CeexSettSep 11, 20162 votes

I don't want to get on the discussion, but Zed Azir Fizz Vayne come to my head. Of course it's hard to quantify "outplay potential" in s scale, but all of these have around the same outplay potential.

Pika FoxSep 11, 20161 votes

Yasuo has many options to counterplay him.

Any damage procs passive

Q is a skillshot, 2 of which are melee range

W is a long CD, and only stops projectiles

E requires a new target to have a low CD

R requires displacement to be used, meaning solo you can dodge Q to make R impossible

You can argue consistency on how easy it is to counterplay him, but please, this "lolwutcounterplay" mentality is stupid.

Sire HippingtonSep 11, 20164 votes

Haveing more options to outplay you means they can more effectively reduce your options to outplay them. Lee for example can be outplayed by dodgeing his Q, but he has tools that allow him to prevent that, he can wardstep close to you and slow you with E, goodluck dodgeing that pointplank range skillshot while beeing slowed, or he simiply ults you and follows up with the Q while you're still mid air. Think you can bait him with his Q into a bad situation? Between his ult and the wardstep, he has very potent tools to get out of it again.

More options to outplay does not Inherently mean more options to be outplayed. Imageing annies E also gave a 50% speedbuff decaying over the duration off the shield. Now she could use that speedbuff to outplay opponents, dodgeing skillshot's, kiteing, catching them off-guard. How would that ncrease your abillity to outplay her?

ÐelofashtSep 11, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Because harder champions tend to have more counterplay options????????

Easy champions don't always see high level play because they're counterplay is usually one dimensional (build this item, do this thing differently). Hard champions have more options to outplay which inherently means they have more options to be outplayed

sorry to burst your bubble

This isn't true though, more difficult champions do not have more ways to be outplayed, they have far less. You wait for them to make a mistake, that is not outplaying your opponent, that is them messing up.

Bladerunner7777Sep 11, 20162 votes

Being forced to wait for someone to make a mistake isn't as unfair as you would think. Generally the hard champions aren't as forgiving so when they do make a mistake you have to capitalize on it.

It requires patience.

Statistically speaking, the longer you don't screw up with a hard champion then the more likely you are to screw up. It is actually impossible to play 100% perfect for all of laning phase, the pros can get close to this so hard champions are actually a problem there (as we saw with Azir)

ÐelofashtSep 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Being forced to wait for someone to make a mistake isn't as unfair as you would think. Generally the hard champions aren't as forgiving so when they do make a mistake you have to capitalize on it.

It requires patience.

Statistically speaking, the longer you don't screw up with a hard champion then the more likely you are to screw up. It is actually impossible to play 100% perfect for all of laning phase, the pros can get close to this so hard champions are actually a problem there (as we saw with Azir)

That would imply that having less options makes you less prone to make a mistake, which is not the case, and it is easier for a high skill cap champ to capitalize of the mistakes of a low skill champ than the inverse. The thinking here is that supposedly low skill cap champs do unfair things because they have less buttons to push, but that is not true, if they miss something with their buttons they do not generally have a way to reset. Think about any immobile melee, they are all considered low skill cap, but they do not have significantly better melee fighting capability than any highly mobile high skill cap melee champion. If they did it most certainly would be considered overpowered.

A high skill cap champion would need to be significantly weaker than a low skill cap champion to be considered balanced, but most of them have very good scaling skills and tend to only be punished if they are making mistakes, while being able to force enemies into mistakes more easily. This is like Zed forcing you to reposition or eat shurikens, or Azir making you dodge a Q soldier, the low skill cap champion does not have that skill, the have a point and click skill that if you go in to use it your are probably making a mistake by even stepping toward the enemy. Balancing around skill caps is just not good, it is an unfair advantage, and we see it all the time in pro play, in organized team setting no one is playing a low skill cap champion unless they are extremely overpowered by sheer damage on their skills.

Bladerunner7777Sep 11, 20161 votes

That would imply that having less options makes you less prone to make a mistake, which is not the case

If I misclick a minion with Pantheon Q, I'm not as screwed as I would be if I missed Fiora Q

it is easier for a high skill cap champ to capitalize of the mistakes of a low skill champ than the inverse

Then explain why Annie is one of the most common Yasuo counters

A high skill cap champion would need to be significantly weaker than a low skill cap champion to be considered balanced

What?

If everyone playing League of Legends was a robot, then sure, the champions with the most options would be the most overpowered.

But we aren't, there are a million different factors per game that make it literally impossible to play "perfectly", so you can't balance a champion under the assumption that everyone playing them is perfect.

ÐelofashtSep 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If I misclick a minion with Pantheon Q, I'm not as screwed as I would be if I missed Fiora Q

Then explain why Annie is one of the most common Yasuo counters

What?

If everyone playing League of Legends was a robot, then sure, the champions with the most options would be the most overpowered.

But we aren't, there are a million different factors per game that make it literally impossible to play "perfectly", so you can't balance a champion under the assumption that everyone playing them is perfect.

To balance champs under the impression that people are going to make mistakes is a flaw as well though. As for Annie, that is a perceptional mistake, the numbers actually do not show that Annie is particularly good against Yasuo at all, at least not in Plat+. In fact many would argue that he counters her as he can clearly prepare for her Q. . . I have seen many people ask why anyone would pick Annie into Yasuo. Your logic falters as soon as you look at the statistics there.

Lastly if Fiora misses a Q she displaced herself, she made the mistake, but if Panth misses a Q his damage that shoulda have been applied is completely blanked, and it is on CD, he is vunerable to solid reaction.

Look individual player skill cannot be brought into this, it is a futile point, assuming skill is the same a high skill cap champion will almost always have the advantage. It is fine for you to disagree with me, but check your statistics before you bring them into a thread to defend your points.

LankPantsSep 11, 20162 votes

Because harder champions tend to have more counterplay options????????

This is actually not just untrue, but the wrong way around. Hard champs have less counterplay options when played well. There are less ways you can play against a Zed/Lee Sin/Azir than a Talon/Nocturne/Kayle. The harder champions unanimously have better options to deal with counters, at the expense of these options being harder to execute. What this means is that in an idealised scenario where these champs play perfectly they have virtually no counterplay but this doesn't have to be the case, even when played by a decent player these champs tend to have the ability to remove swaths of what should be their counterplay by virtue of 'outplaying'.

Fieryfury3Sep 11, 20161 votes

Yes there is LMAO. If not, everyone would pick the easiest champ in a certain position and dominate because you don't have to try or practice with them nearly as much. Here's an idea, work really hard to master your champion and not get rewarded for it....

HaloDragonXSep 12, 20161 votes

So Azir should be better just because he's harder? Isn't that unfair that Azir is better, isn't that bad balance. Being easy shouldn't mean worse.

AptestSep 11, 20165 votes

Skill cap cannot take part in balancing the power budget of a champion. If it does, champions with high skill cap dominate high skill games and champions with low skill cap dominate low skill games. Also it creates a "learn champion X is enough to increase MMR" effect. Which is not good.

Bladerunner7777Sep 11, 20162 votes

That's not how it works

Low risk champions give low reward

High risk champions give high reward

If low risk champions gave high reward then why should high risk champions exist?

The reason to pick low risk champions is because they are extremely reliable which is something that is also sought after in high level play. Easy and Hard champions can coexist

Now when a high risk champion suddenly becomes low risk (Tank Fizz, Tank Ekko, Tank Yasuo, Azir E buffs) then that is definitely a problem

AptestSep 11, 20161 votes

Skill cap / floor and risk are different things.

Skill cap is generally a product of the player's options. risk is generally a product of the opponent's options.

freeloader25Sep 11, 20161 votes

I think that risk includes the own possibilities to make mistakes and the more options you have with a champion (skill cap), the more chances you have to fail. And by that, there are options the opponent can use to punish your mistakes.

So i think that risk and skill cap aren't the same but they impact each other.

MunchCrunchLunchSep 11, 20164 votes

a champion should be more versatile if they are high skill cap. however they shouldn't be simply much stronger than easier champs just because. by versatile i mean them doing well against with different team comps.

usually simple champions are good at doing one thing right and thats about it. thats what makes them simple. you just have a single purpose.

jax will suck if his team is a team fighting comp. he will jump in and die. he can't peel he can't do much in team fights.

however if you have a skilled azir. he can team fight pretty damn well. also he can fo 1-4 split because he can still do in 4v5s because he can simply disengage his team from a fight or engage in a 5v4. thats what i mean.

also a skilled player will be able to overcome the shitty parts of champions. like gangplank bad early game. its very shitty. but if your good enough its very very hard to stop you and you can solo carry games. or even make other team mates carry by using your ult.

anyway. usually an overloaded champion is a champion with both enough damage to carry and utility. Gangplank Azir basically.

CerealBoxOfDoomSep 11, 20163 votes

A skill cap is not a weakness A skill cap is not used as a legitimate weakness in this game or most reputable games

Earl EulrichSep 11, 20162 votes

no its not, it just makes them insanly frustrating to play against when they are strong and the player is good and generally very hard to balance as they become problems in proplay very quickly once in the spotlight (@ryze, azir, reksai,...).

SeenanSep 11, 20162 votes

Well, look at Riot's old golden boy Lee Sin. As nerfed and weak as he is atm, he still has sooo much in his kit...And can easily carry with just one well-done insec kick on the ADC. I kinda fear facing Gripex one day, even though I don't think he's in NA.

Bladerunner7777Sep 11, 20162 votes

And can easily carry with just one well-done insec kick on the ADC

If you lose because of 1 play by lee sin then you're whole team is bad and probably wouldn't win anyways.

Fondling GemsSep 11, 20162 votes

In a late game teamfight having a carry picked off at the start can easily be a game over. That is the nature of carries and late game league. If you lose a teamfight late game it can easily be game over, and carries pack so much of a team's damage that a single play where they get picked out and deleted can mean that you instantly win the teamfight, aka the game.

DealthSep 11, 20164 votes

For champions who are good at picking off carries late game, Lee Sin is at the bottom of the list.

Fondling GemsSep 11, 20163 votes

Which changes absolutely nothing about your argument. You said if a team loses to a Lee play then they are all bad. By making no argument against my previous point you are conceding that one play late game to pick off a carry can easily be a game over regardless of whether the team is good or not. Then you proceed to say that Lee is bad for picking off carries, implying that he still CAN, it is just harder for him to. As such you have said nothing to support your previous argument that an entire team is bad due to losing a game because of a good Lee play.

You are making defensive statements that do absolutely nothing to support what you are saying, and imply that you yourself were wrong. If you are going to make arguments about the quality of players who are being affected by a skillful play on someone else's part, at least try to have an argument rather than an unsupported opinion or precede your comments with "In my opinion "

Bladerunner7777Sep 11, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fondling Gems,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pXAfkgQY,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-11T05:40:05.387+0000)

Which changes absolutely nothing about your argument. You said if a team loses to a Lee play then they are all bad. By making no argument against my previous point you are conceding that one play late game to pick off a carry can easily be a game over regardless of whether the team is good or not. Then you proceed to say that Lee is bad for picking off carries, implying that he still CAN, it is just harder for him to. As such you have said nothing to support your previous argument that an entire team is bad due to losing a game because of a good Lee play.

You are making defensive statements that do absolutely nothing to support what you are saying, and imply that you yourself were wrong. If you are going to make arguments about the quality of players who are being affected by a skillful play on someone else's part, at least try to have an argument rather than an unsupported opinion or precede your comments with "In my opinion "

Who are you talking to?

Fondling GemsSep 11, 20161 votes

Ah, MB, I didn't realize it was two different people commenting. Usually the same person responds to me so I forget to check names.

In this case due to the way Dealth is responding it is in opposition of my original comment however his comment is off topic and out of place unless it is being used to support your comment in which case my response still applies to Dealth.

I still don't agree with your comment though and assuming that an entire team is bad due to a skillful play by another person in a game where late game teamfights are so crucial and losing a carry at that stage can easily cause a lost teamfight is ridiculous imo. Late game small things can tip a game one way or another and your comment is really just rude.

Bladerunner7777Sep 11, 20161 votes

I'm not denying that lategame is very volatile and can be decided with a pick. But two things:

Lategame, getting caught alone is a foolish mistake. This is easily avoidable by staying grouped so you can't feel bad for people who lose because of this in mid-high elo. If an ADC is farming raptors 50 minutes in by themselves without vision of the enemy team, they deserve to lose.
Lee sin loses a lot of usefulness lategame. He doesn't "fall off" per se but the longer the game goes, the more skill is required of the Lee player. The same applies to Shaco or Leblanc, their strengths simply aren't suited for 5v5 teamfights so you have to be able to execute your skills almost perfectly to play them (lategame. Lee sin's early game honestly isn't very hard)

Look at Lee's pick potential vs Rengar's or Kha'zix', there's no comparison.

And yes, I think if a Lee sin walks up to your ADC in a lategame teamfight and kills them then your team is bad. The ADC can position better, the support can peel better, the tank can zone and peel better. Champions like Zed or Talon are slightly understandable, but Lee?

Fondling GemsSep 11, 20161 votes

Ok but nothing was said about Lee Sin walking up to them and ulting and as I mentioned earlier Lee Sin's utility late game is not part of the equation. It isn't a matter of it being hard, it is a matter of it being possible. Nothing was ever mentioned about the adc being alone either.

Due to how you worded your statement you are calling the entire enemy team stupid regardless of the situation that led up to the adc getting insec'ed into the other team, which means I can write up any plausible situation I please to argue with you. (All inclusive statements are a bitch sometimes)

Here is the scenario: both teams are grouped and facing off, waiting to see who makes the first move. The top lane Lee tp'd to a far away ward in the fog of war. He then approached from the unwarded behind, wall hopped with a ward, Q > Q2 > R > Flash reposition on the enemy adc, insec'ing them into the other team where they were instantly blown up.

Because the enemy team had closed in when they saw the Lee Q those closest to Vayne's new position would have been cc'd by the Lee ult which would mean that anyone close enough to possibly save the adc would have been unable to do anything.

So, in a situation that was well played by the Lee, not badly played by the enemy team, would you really still call that whole team bad?

Bladerunner7777Sep 11, 20161 votes

For every play that requires flash, the opposing player can use flash to negate it.

Lee ults then uses flash to redirect the kick? ADC could have flashed right before he anticipated lee would ult and now the ADC is hurdling to the side and not towards the enemy team. Now Lee sin has no escape, no burst, isn't tanky, basically dead.

Even if they flashed too early, Lee doesn't have the ADC where he wants her to be, making the play impossible to execute without assistance.

Also it's the team's responsibility to see teleport channels, it even lasts longer than it used to.

"What if the ADC didn't have flash?"; What if the Lee didn't have flash?

Fondling GemsSep 11, 20161 votes

2 things

I am doing that under the assumption that the enemy adc wasn't already properly lined up, which considering that the Lee was coming from a backline tp they probably already were lined up.
You statement was, once again, all inclusive. As such I DO get to set up the exact situation and apply your statement to it. That is how that works. You stated your opinion as a fact, as such as the one taking on the role of disproving said statement I get to apply it to everything within the bounds you set. You only bounds were Lee making one play and winning the game. You have agreed that one play can win the game in which case the only thing I have to disprove is that Lee making such a play doesn't mean the whole team is bad.

So I CAN set up a situation in which the adc doesn't have flash and apply your statement to it. That is how disproving things works. As such, let me ask again: If the Lee Sin were to do such a play and the game were to be one off of that, is the whole team still bad?

Bladerunner7777Sep 12, 20161 votes

How about you make a real argument instead of trying to act all pretentious like some crooked lawyer?

You know exactly what I mean, and if I got my point across then that's all I care about.

Nobody wants to play your "argument game".

Goodbye.

Fondling GemsSep 12, 20161 votes

I just dislike people who only look at the negatives. You don't take Lee's skill into consideration, you just see the results with no context and label 5 people, who theoretically exist, and have feelings, as being bad. You don't try to understand others or even think of them positively. You instinctively look for the bad things, not the good. That is why I have these arguments that I don't enjoy having, because sometimes people realize what they are doing and try to think more positively, and that is what makes my day. Looks like my day will not be made today though.

Goodbye.

DealthSep 11, 20163 votes

NuparuSep 11, 20162 votes

Heh, guess no one's awake to complain about Riven yet.

I was waiting for that, to be honest.

But no, skill cap isn't a viable weakness by itself.

There's a reason most inherently high skill champions also have very problematic situations in which they can't deal with (Kalista against the extreme lane bullies like Draven, Azir against assassins like Talon and Zed, Riven against high damage bruisers like Renekton and Pantheon (wtf is this champ anyways? bruiser or fighter or assassin?), Yasuo against most melee fighters (when he's not abusing tank items), etc.)

The problem becomes when they can abuse items to cover up all their weaknesses. Then they become a severe problem.

elon wątrobaSep 11, 20163 votes

Pantheon is fighter and he needs and deserves rework.

Bladerunner7777Sep 11, 20161 votes

Pantheon is a duelist

elon wątrobaSep 11, 20161 votes

Isn't duelist a fighter subclass? I'm being downvoted for telling, that binary champion, which fall off after 30 minute needs a rework.

CastaneanSep 12, 20161 votes

it's OK for something that is harder to do to be more powerful, but not on a 1:1 ratio. There's a very fine balance here that's hard to do right. The easy characters need to have enough power to compete with the hard ones, but if the hard ones aren't more powerful in some way then what's the point in playing them?

For instance; Why play Lee Sin if, say, Warwick could achieve the same result by pointing and clicking? Why play Yasuo or Riven if you could just Garen, Yi and Jax for the exact same result anyway?

Same thing other way around; If a hard character gets rewarded too much for their hard-to-play-ness, then people who prefer easier characters wouldn't be able to compete and things eventually get so one-sided that any champion that isn't the top-tier hard-to-play characters would be completely and totally unviable and picking anything but them would lose you the game instantly.