Karthus Jungle Winrate Drops 5% off a 5/10 Damage nerf

ModCaptainMårvelous·Feb 22, 2019·46 votes·14,842 views

As the title says.

Guess we should stop memeing about those changes because in this case Karthus got fuckin' kneecapped by this one.

63 Comments

Critmaster GarenFeb 22, 201942 votes

what did they nerf, his q?

that wouldnt be surprising, as it should have massively impacted his first clear.

edit.: yup. who the fuck memed this nerf? slight damage buffs and nerfs at lvl 1 to junglers have always massively impacted their performance. this isnt anything new.

ModCaptainMårvelousFeb 22, 20199 votes

It was meme'd because "le 5 damage xd". At least that's what I saw among friends talking about it.

BarcidFeb 22, 20197 votes

Your friends are dumbasses. Lucian receiving a 10 damage nerf on his W - an ability that is basically used almost exclusively as a passive proc'er - is a weak ass nerf. 5 damage off of an ability that is used so much the letter on the key gets worn off isn't. Ezreal had a similar nerf when he was peaking on Klepto's release where it was 15% AD scaling shaved off of his Q, and his winrates dropped like a boulder.

Yets4240Feb 23, 20191 votes

Also, on isolated Q's its double the effect, and you Q at least once a second in a fight, vs. Lucian W'ing once a trade. Not to mention Karthus jungles, and his clear is effected by every Q, which again he spams. He lost hundreds of damage per clear, vs 10 damage a trade.

Sp33d Zer0Feb 23, 20194 votes

Good Lucian's put 3 points W for hard lanes and would also use it as easy poke and waveclear on things outside of Q range.

That's not to say it was maxed everytime, but to say his W is basically used as a passive proc tool is inaccurate.

SaiannaFeb 22, 20196 votes

it was meme'd because Riot would nerf ADCs or assassins by 3AD by level 18 and said "now everything is balanced". Noone meme'd about junglers being hit the same way, though as those changes are indeed impactful.

Sp33d Zer0Feb 23, 20194 votes

No, Riot would nerf ADCs by 3 AD at level one and people would say "lul 3 AD" or when they nerfed Vi by 5 ms and people said "lul 5ms".

HateDaddyFeb 23, 20193 votes

{quoted}

it was meme'd because Riot would nerf ADCs or assassins by 3AD by level 18 and said "now everything is balanced". Noone meme'd about junglers being hit the same way, though as those changes are indeed impactful.

5 AD was a meme a long time ago actually, it was SotEL iirc in season 3

HungryAngry2SPPFeb 22, 20193 votes

{quoted}

It was meme'd because "le 5 damage xd". At least that's what I saw among friends talking about it.

Le 5ms Irelia Le 0,5s increased cooldown Zoe

That's part of the reason why these small changes are memed. Riot trolled us with these 2. So if anyone sees a low number: -3AD Graves -5dmg Q Karthus They just laugh at it, thinking they re getting trolled again.

JJI744Feb 22, 20192 votes

Irelia lost 2% winrate off that 5MS. Regardless of what the community may think, League is balanced finely enough that seemingly minor nerfs can have substantial impact.

ModKnightsKemplarFeb 22, 20194 votes

There was less memeing that similar changes in the past, but I feel that's partly because Riot got ahead of it in the Patch Notes (at least for NA). It helps a lot when they explain why those small changes matter.

When they don't do that, people often don't understand why a change like this helps so much. Hell, even saying "this will massively impact his first clear" is something I didn't think about. Patch notes couched it as a nerf to all positions, but on second thought I see how it could disproportionately affect jungle. I wish we had more in-depth conversations about this sort of thing on Boards. I didn't see a single thread about it.

HethaleanFeb 22, 201926 votes

Taking 10% off of an ability he spams maybe 400 times a game will do it. People just cry about seeing small numbers I think without realizing what the change is.

GlaricionFeb 23, 20191 votes

Isn't the issue people are having w/ Karthas that his R works with Dark Harvest?

This is a nice fix for S9, but if DH is changed in S10 I can see Karthas being garbage-tier for longer than necessary.

Mael JadeFeb 23, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Taking 10% off of an ability he spams maybe 400 times a game will do it. People just cry about seeing small numbers I think without realizing what the change is.

You mean 400 times before lvl 6 (unless he is only farming with E). It has a 1 second cooldown mid game after all

BALDG1VEN BOOMERFeb 22, 201914 votes

5 damage off a champion in jungle is more significant than 5 damage off a champion who plays a lane.

Daddy AntsFeb 22, 201911 votes

{quoted}

5 damage off a champion in jungle is more significant than 5 damage off a champion who plays a lane.

Karthus probably casts Q a few hundred times per game.

it adds up.

BALDG1VEN BOOMERFeb 22, 20193 votes

It’s about 30 damage off his level 1 Q if he were to spam it 6 items, it’s pretty significant

TobykachuFeb 22, 20199 votes

Because it's 5 damage off of one of the most highly spammed abilities in the game (10 damage on an isolated target). It's not fair at all to compare this nerf to the -5 ms Irelia nerf.

kile147Feb 23, 20192 votes

A closer comparison to Irelia's ms nerf would be to decrease his base AD. They both technically use those stats, but they have other parts of their kit they can lean on to avoid really feeling the hit (Karthus Q, Irelia Dash).

SalronFeb 23, 20191 votes

Irelia's MS affects her ability to get into range to cast spells Your logic is awful

kile147Feb 24, 20191 votes

Irelia's abilities have 600+ range, and her dash has a reset that works on minions, meaning it could theoretically allow her to engage from 1200 units away. The only way to avoid her by outrunning her is to already be outside of interaction range for either of you. This isn't a character like Darius who has considerably less range (largest is 525 on his E) and relies heavily on running down enemies.

BoltonatorFeb 22, 20197 votes

I don’t think a grim reaper should be harvesting the souls of animals though...

Kinda lessens his intimidation factor, know what I mean?

HighwiseeneFeb 22, 20193 votes

Karthus : I'm a scary grim reaper, watch as I harvest the soul of this poor innocent rift scuttler that can't fight back

BoltonatorFeb 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

: I'm a scary grim reaper, watch as I harvest the soul of this poor innocent rift scuttler that can't fight back

No! You monster! summoner 4

3TWarriorFeb 22, 20191 votes

but it can juke every Q! nah, but still XD

excelsheet1Feb 22, 20194 votes

He didnt need nerfs at any level of play.

Sir SaltarinFeb 22, 20198 votes

Have to disagree, his nerfs were needed.

excelsheet1Feb 22, 20192 votes

Maybe to his AA or w

DracosKasuFeb 22, 20192 votes

Nerfing is AA wouldn’t affected a bit karthus since most of the time he use Q. I kinda wish they also nerf is ult range at 6lvl and 11lvl then became global only at 16 similar to Darius who can reset his ult until his third lvl on his ultimate.

3TWarriorFeb 22, 20193 votes

you know that the global ult is one of the only ways that karthus functions, right? He has no kill pressure, is one of if not the most defenseless mages in the game (with base stats to match) and his recent spike in win-rate was due to Dark Harvest with it being so effective on him that it was one of the only strategies left for him after they nerfed it

he has 450 auto attack range, so he can not trade well in top, his W got nerfed A LOT previously so now he does not function well as a support, practically every champion in mid lane has an edge over him...he was taken as carry, briefly...

Storn SaroeFeb 22, 20194 votes

Same thing happened with Quinn jg and the 3 armour nerf. Yes it didn't affect her top winrate that much but it tanked her jg at the time by about 4-5%. It is just how sensitive jg is to early base number changes, even if they are small.

kile147Feb 23, 20191 votes

That is fairly surprising actually. Melee champs who get those kind of nerfs in jg suffer similar drops. Ranged champs like Quinn usually kite more though, so I would expect that kind of change to their defense to matter far less than to a melee champ who has to facetank.

Storn SaroeFeb 23, 20191 votes

Honestly I was surprised as well at the time, but I guess she is slightly worse at kiting compared to someone like graves, that and I presume the popularity of Xin, Kha, Lee and other early duelling AD junglers contributed to it as well. You are right though armour nerfs normally hurt melees in jg more than ranged champions like Quinn.

IllabetheFeb 22, 20193 votes

Or.... Win rate stats are flawed and fluctuate as players enter and leave playing them?

Morgana was 49% until 2 days ago and without any buffs at all, she went to 51% for 2 days. Why? Proficient players began picking her up again in anticipation.

Your Proficient Karthus players have moved on to their next marginal jungler.

ModCaptainMårvelousFeb 23, 20194 votes

By the same account, one could argue Karthus's winrate would go upward because there would be less FotM players latching onto him since his nerf, leaving the skilled Karthus players.

Of course, we also have to account for other things. Morgana does quite well against Thresh (the highest pick of support) who also just got a nerf, making her an even stronger pick against her.

Still, I could believe you if Karthus's playrate vs. winrate drop wasn't so massive. A 5% win rate vs. a 1% pick rate drop is massive. Unless that 1% was regularly winning 55% or more of their games, it doesn't really account for how utterly massive this drop was.

Frosted TipsFeb 22, 20192 votes

I mean it is definitely different on junglers and when it is a highly spammed ability. Like even 2-3 damage off of it would have been noticeable because it is used so frequently.

Daddy AntsFeb 22, 20192 votes

DESERVED

KoKobotoFeb 22, 20192 votes

Well the thing with Karthus Q is that he spams it so frequently so any nerf to that damage would decrease his DPS a ton. In comparison nerfing an ability that is spammed less often would do little. Taking 5 damage off say Syndra Q would not be as noticeable in comparison.

3TWarriorFeb 22, 20191 votes

she uses every ability but her E often. her Q is her farm tool and her poke damage

Yets4240Feb 23, 20191 votes

Compare a Q every 6 seconds on Syndra, vs one every .6 seconds for Karthus. Its literally ten times more impactful for Karthus.

BUT WAIT, if he lands an isolated Q, it doubles the damage, so he's losing 10 damage on isolated Qs vs Syndra losing 5 damage, and she casts one for evey 10 that he does. In the worst case, the nerf is 20 times more impactful for Karthus than for Syndra, in the best case, its only 10 times worse.

Spooky SkeletonFeb 23, 20192 votes

10 damage single target per cast on an ability that has a 1 second cooldown is significant. They really should have just made his Q do 70% damage to jungle monsters or something to avoid hitting lane Karthus though.

AseraanFeb 24, 20191 votes

There is no lane karthus tho not since dark harvest got gutted(good ridance btw better delete the rune).

Spooky SkeletonFeb 24, 20191 votes

well that's my point. I mostly played mid Karthus and now i cba to play him because he's both too strong and better in the jungle.

AseraanFeb 25, 20191 votes

Well its not on me that they would not consider what nerfs and buffs will do and how to correctly do them and if they have no idea ask high elo players who play the role champ maybe idk.........

PopcornBunniFeb 23, 20192 votes

Yeah, it turns out a 10% damage decrease on the tool used for power farming is significant.

Compared to a 1.4% lower movement speed (Irelia's -5) or hell, even a 4.5% base AD decrease (Graves's -3).

-5 off an ability that deals 230would be a joke.

-5 off an ability that deals 30 would be backbreaking. Imagine if Evelynn Q had 5 lower damage on each hit.

PhearBunnyFeb 23, 20192 votes

nerf it again for good measure. No one wants to see jungle Karthas ever again.

Power CosmicFeb 23, 20191 votes

I thought making something unique like Karthus jungle viable was good for everyone. He was a good champ for showing how lanes played a role in jungling besides ganks.

SiG DxDFeb 23, 20191 votes

its big nerfs for him because he spams Q if his Q had like 6 s cd as a normal abilty that didnt do much

AseraanFeb 24, 20191 votes

GOOD RIDANCE GET HIS UNINTERACTIVE DARK HARVEST ABUSING ASS OUT OF THE JUNGLE!!!!!!

MathgodpiFeb 24, 20191 votes

1 million mastery point Karthus main here. While I'm slightly saddened by it, I get why this nerf needed to happen. That said, Karthus still needs a few more tweaks IMO. Here's what I would do:

W mana cost changed to 50/60/70/80/90 from the current 70 at all levels, to make the wall more viable early in the game. Also, MR shred should be increased to 25% from its current 15% to make crossing the wall more punishing than it currently is.

R damage reduced to 230/370/510 +70%AP from its current 250/400/550 +75%AP. This is because jungle Karthus is still pretty strong even after the nerf and many people complain about Karthus "farm & R" strat being too strong and annoying to play against.

Some sort of Q damage reduction against non-epic monsters, so that Karthus stops getting banned and I can play my champion again.