I'm not waiting more than 2 patches for tanks to get buffed.

kasfas·May 9, 2017·45 votes·6,839 views

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I've seen how long it can take to alter champions after their class updates, and I don't want my champion to be left alone for 5+ patches because "we need to wait and see if buffs are in order".

Buffs ARE in order for any champion affected by the sunfire change, and I don't care if it's as simple as + 10 base damage, + 50 range, + 10 base armour, we need something.

The community comes up with decent ideas sometimes, try some of those! PLEASE, don't leave us in the dust of Sejuani and maokai.

116 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirMay 10, 201730 votes

We're currently scoping change for the 7.11 patch, and one of the things we're looking to hit for 7.11 or 7.12 is adjustments to underperforming tanks. No details to share yet (since we're just starting work on it), but the plan is to at least investigate giving some love to underperforming tanks. Should know more some time next week most likely.

JustARivenMainMay 10, 20172 votes

{quoted}

We're currently scoping change for the 7.11 patch, and one of the things we're looking to hit for 7.11 or 7.12 is adjustments to underperforming tanks. No details to share yet (since we're just starting work on it), but the plan is to at least investigate giving some love to underperforming tanks. Should know more some time next week most likely.

After seeing some of the love on Zac I'm sure you'll show some love to them tanks.

AzteryzMay 10, 201711 votes

could you give some insight on what champs are considered to be underperfoming tanks affected by the sunfire changes tho?

Sion Shen Garen ? etc

AmazoXMay 10, 201713 votes

{quoted}

could you give some insight on what champs are considered to be underperfoming tanks affected by the sunfire changes tho?

? etc

Sion is bae, His the most balanced character in the entire roster.

OyddAWqJ5rMay 10, 20173 votes

Sion with item 3193 activated proccing both CotC and his W makes for a massive unkillable shield. I'd say he benefited from this one.

RalanrMay 10, 20176 votes

Eh, it's not something he'd rush.

Meep ManMay 10, 20175 votes

I actually think the new Sterak's is decent on him since he has more bonus health than most Tanks.

SpoofghoulMay 10, 201710 votes

Meanhwile item 3065 in 7.10

It's item 3068 allover again

Why not just grind item 3031 out of existence because it's built every game

Do you really expect people to still play tanks when they are treated they way they are?

AmazoXMay 10, 20173 votes

What good would removing IE do?

SpoofghoulMay 10, 201717 votes

what good does removing item 3068 & item 3065 do?

AmazoXMay 10, 20173 votes

Did you not read what Riot Repertoir said on this thread?

SpoofghoulMay 10, 20179 votes

Do you really think just shifting stats from items to individual champs will accomplish anything

Those champs will ignore the nerfed items and build the strong ones and end up being oppressive

And then what? Nerf those items? buff the champs that use them continue the cycle until all items are shit and all champs are broken or nerf the champions putting them back in a bad state and then buff their item? doing half a season of balancing to return at the point of origin all the while chasing the players of those champions away from the champion or even the game?

Neither solves anything but does bring problems what's the point of all this?

People are dumb they can't see 1 patch ahead and fanboi all they up Rito's colon thinking they are some magic unicorn who shits rainbows and diamonds not realizing that they end up in a damp dark and stinking shithole, when they realize that Riot is just as shortsighted as they are.

LankPantsMay 11, 20171 votes

I'm personally already using item 3078 and item 3748 on Sejuani. Why wouldn't I? They're better than tank items.

It's not just item 3068 and item 3065 either, item 3143 is damn near unusable due to how shit its build path is, item 1409 is also unusable since Riot for some reason just lumped already the weakest of the jungle enchants in with their Sunfire nerfs and none of the other items introduced even remotely make up for these changes.

VelasanMay 10, 20176 votes

{quoted}

We're currently scoping change for the 7.11 patch, and one of the things we're looking to hit for 7.11 or 7.12 is adjustments to underperforming tanks. No details to share yet (since we're just starting work on it), but the plan is to at least investigate giving some love to underperforming tanks. Should know more some time next week most likely.

I think what some people are focusing on is the confusion of when tanks are supposed to be good. In early game they haven't become that tanky yet or have their items which help them do their job. In mid game they get pushed out by Black Cleaver builders in both jungle and top and sometimes the ADC. In late game all ADC's build some combination of Lord Dominiks or Mortal Reminder and you can add Blade of the Ruined King of that mix.

This is not including champions who come with true damage built in, particularly some of the popular ADC's such as Twitch, Varus, Kog'maw and Vayne.

Stacking HP was the one thing that allowed tanks to still tank, that's all been reduced and Sunfire/Cinder is worse. So, it's left tanks in kind of a weird spot where they aren't supposed to do much damage, but can't tank properly anymore either. We see this in reverse with bruisers who get to have the fun with all the tank items, but still get their damage as well, because they always benefit the most from new changes on either side of the spectrum. I think most of us assumed HP was the tank stat, as crit is to ADC and lethality to assassins.

IMO tanks as a whole actually are a strong class, but this newest shake up in combination with the meta is causing some problems with how they are supposed to function. The balancing act of figuring out how to make tanks "tankier" without affecting who else can have it must be a very tricky road indeed.

Sire HippingtonMay 10, 20174 votes

That would be prettymuch every tank exept for sejuani and maybe gragas+gallio.... The winrate of about everytank exept of seju dropped this patch, same for many of the juggenauts. The top 8 of the 10 highest winrates toplane(https://euw.op.gg/champion/pantheon/statistics/top) use no tank items, one of the others only uses some if the hardly changed ones(deadmen's+SV) and the last one is Seju...

The issue is not a few champs underperforming. Tank itemisation is clearly not attracive at all for sololanes right now.

Meep ManMay 10, 20173 votes

I hope Dr. Mundo and Volibear are also getting looked at

Helmet Br0Jun 21, 20171 votes

Will Garen ever be revisited, I would really like to see his kit reworked to include a more team play, armour shredding focused skill set

Same skill floor, Higher skill ceiling

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ll6gkAek-heres-a-post-where-you-can-ask-questions-about-the-stuff-ive-worked-on-and-ill-try-to-answer?sort_type=recent&comment=0295

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Much Luv

Sexy Jack RabbitMay 10, 20173 votes

What tanks are even underperforming? Gargoyle Stoneplate feels like it unanimously buffed about 75% of them. Poppy? God I hope not. She does not need buffs.

AtheosisXMay 10, 201726 votes

Gargoyle Stoneplate doesn't help with laning which is where many tanks are suffering after the Sunfire changes.

Sexy Jack RabbitMay 10, 20179 votes

Good point, didn't think about that.

And A Real HieroMay 10, 20173 votes

Plus it severely gimps tanks that don't carry a lot of CC.

Dextix LTMay 10, 20179 votes

Gargoyle is for teamfights only, and it does not give any damage, rather it removes it. In laning phase for tanks thats a completely shit item. And they dont really have anything else goof for laning, besides what sunfire was.

Sun Wu RyuumokuMay 10, 20171 votes

this was the point of tank rework... why would u want damage when u play a tank ??

RalanrMay 10, 201713 votes

If you're solo laning or jungling, you need a level of damage that allows you to farm/clear jungle at a viable speed and fight/interact with your lane opponent.

It isn't exciting for a tank to just farm under their tower because they can't really do anything alone to their enemy. Late game their damage falls off though.

Sun Wu RyuumokuMay 10, 20172 votes

If you're solo laning or jungling, you need a level of damage that allows you to farm/clear jungle at a viable speed and fight/interact with your lane opponent.

What i mean is... why would u want to buy damage on a Tank.

PB4UAMEMay 10, 20173 votes

Because this game has been and always will be one of damage.

How do you take objectives? You fucking do damage to them.

How do you get gold? Well, you're a support, or you fucking do damage to creeps and monsters.

How do you win the game? You do 5k damage to the nexus.

How do you force your laner back, or kill them? Guess fucking what? You do damage to them.

EVERY source of solo gold beyond passive generation is from doing damage. Period. The end. If you want items, which you need, especially as a tank-- you need HP, both resists, some CDR, and usually some form of sustain/regen, well, guess what? All of those items cost gold, and as such, you need to do damage to get them.

Tanks no longer have the minimum damage required to adequately survive solo lanes to get get the gold they need to then adequately survive teamfights. Tanks need more gold, to get this gold, they need to do more damage.

All the ADC's would bitch, whine, and moan if we just gave the stats purchased from items to tanks outright ("muh statstticks* -while conveniently being the single most stat stick based class who literally wins almost purely because their damage formula is multiplicative and they get so much more power and gold efficiency out of their stats than any other class in the game bar none.) so, tanks need more damage in laning.

LankPantsMay 11, 20172 votes

Because Riot's shafting durability items?

Why wouldn't I buy damage items if the durability items are terrible. I could buy 3 tank items then die to an ADC anyway since Riot's crippling tank items or I could just buy a Trifoce and utilise the fact that they're buffing up tanks at a base line.

Sun Wu RyuumokuMay 11, 20171 votes

tbh item 3078 is great on Poppy

LankPantsMay 11, 20171 votes

It seems pretty damn good on Sej as well. I think it just ends up feeling OK to good on any more physical damage based tank.

Dextix LTMay 10, 20175 votes

In teamfights? I dont want that to change. But in laning phase you will either have damage or lose the lane. Damage is required for laning and ANY kind of interaction with the opponent. Whats the point of you not dying while you get 0 farm or have to back every minute because the enemy pushes you out but you cant?

Sun Wu RyuumokuMay 10, 20171 votes

i agree more or less... but it was in response to this

Gargoyle is for teamfights only, and it does not give any damage, rather it removes it.

Thanks God its like this.

Whats the point of you not dying while you get 0 farm or have to back every minute because the enemy pushes you out but you cant ?

i agree... but to help to lane there's already item 1054 & grasp.

kasfasMay 11, 20172 votes

Neither of which provide mana, which is essential on tanks.

LankPantsMay 11, 20172 votes

That's a pretty massive overgeneralisation. Sure some tanks are mana hungry, some don't even have mana.

Shen and Zac would obviously be the two top examples of tanks with literally 0 use for mana, but there's also other tanks with bellow average mana costs who can get away with low or no mana in their builds like Sion and Poppy if for some reason you decide against a Sheen on her.

I also think D-Shield will be pretty core on tanks into more aggressive matchups. The amount of HP it gives with its regen is utterly giant and if you play safe it's enough to regen of sporadic harass from even some of the strongest laners in the meta for a long time. Plus the extra 5 damage VS creeps is great for CSing when you really can't spend an extra AAs duration in a creepwave as is the case VS aggro lanes.

AnagsMay 11, 20172 votes

First, if you are Sion and have to use abilities to clear waves you will go oom and you can't harass. Poppy already has shit wave clear even if she spams q. Melee fighters fighters can just buy tiamat. Doran's shield is solid but still better for fighters that actually melee a lot.

The waveclear and fighting strength that is no longer available on sunfire hurt most tanks. Then you add the fact that other melee ADs and carries got item buffs and this is what happens.

Essentially mana isn't really the issue. It's that tanks in general now lack wave clear and enough strength early to be effective in lane. The itemization changes didn't do them any favors. And now more than ever you can't afford to run too many tank items with zero health. And there are actually more of those now but you can only afford to buy 2 at most really.

LankPantsMay 11, 20171 votes

Tanks can also rush Titanic Hydra to clear waves, infact if Riot goes in the direction of buffing tanks rather than tank items this will almost certainly be optimal, even more so if some of those buffs go into HP. This is especially true when we talk about Poppy and Sion who already have low mana costs and special synergies with the item, Sion having good DPS with it after death and Poppy being able to ranged proc it.

I think people have got too caught up assuming tanks have to stick to tank items, if Sunfire's a shitty item you can't use look to other waveclear options, Titanic is very good on certain tanks, I'd say Sej, Sion, Poppy, Shen, Malphite and maybe Kench top or Naut if you're not going for a Stoneplate would be solid users.

On other tanks you probably want to look at AP options for waveclear for the most part though. There's certainly tanks like Maokai and Zac who have no place at all using Hydra.

AnagsMay 11, 20172 votes

Titanic is pointless for many of those AD tanks. They don't auto enough. It is sub optimal on tanks like Sion and Poppy. They are better served going iceborn guantlet and steraks honestly. They also need CDR early. And banking on using Sion's passive is the dumbest thing ever.

They can build Titanic and it's okay but it's not a great item for them. It's also expensive and they can't just sit on the Tiamat really. They don't use it as well as say Renekton, J4, Shen, and others. Bottom line is it's not near as good as sunfire was.

Big LincolnMay 10, 20174 votes

because not all tanks should do the same thing

meowwow7May 9, 20172 votes

idk about you but i like the new mao for the shear fact his heals are burst like and give a ton of hp back to him so basically they made a semi immortal cc machine [slayer-jinx-wink]

EndlessSorcererMay 9, 201711 votes

He was already a semi-immortal CC machine.

They just shoved him out of top-lane and forced him into jungle/support.

The Yetii RiderMay 9, 20176 votes

{quoted}

He was already a semi-immortal CC machine.

They just shoved him out of top-lane and forced him into jungle/support.

Where he belongs.

Troll for TrumpMay 10, 20176 votes

jungle yes.

Support?

No.

Same thing with Zac support

The Yetii RiderMay 10, 20171 votes

Why not? What's wrong with Maokai support or Zac support? Supports generally want heavy peeling and powerful AOE crowd control, both of which are offered by Zac and Maokai. Both champions can make do with lower gold because Zac doesn't need to build mana like most tanks and Maokai scales so well with Spirit Visage.

PB4UAMEMay 10, 20171 votes

Its not a problem that they can support, its a problem that solo lane, top lane tanks now cannot function up there, and as such have nowhere left to go but support that is the issue.

The Yetii RiderMay 10, 20171 votes

Zac is not and never was a top lane tank. Zac was designed as a jungler and was always meant to jungle.

Malphite, Poppy, Sion, and Shen can all still top. Only Maokai has been forced out.

Big LincolnMay 10, 20176 votes

just support, I haven't even seen a jungle mao yet

JbelsMay 10, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pK1kJePB,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2017-05-10T00:00:49.372+0000)

just support, I haven't even seen a jungle mao yet

I've done it, it's actually surprisingly easy to clear, especially when you can do 3/4 of the first buff's health in 3 seconds with sapling cheese at level 1