Riot, have you tried removing the base % heal on ekko's ult?

kasfas··42 votes·6,323 views

As it stands, ekko's ult heals him for 100/150/200 hp + 20% damage taken in past 4 seconds as base healing with the additional (+ 6.6% per 100 AP). If say ekko's ult healed him for only a flat base amount plus an amount scaling with AP, then tank ekko might have some trouble using it.

For example, give ekko's ult a base 100/175/250 heal (+ ~8% to 10% per 100 AP). This should discourages tanky builds because his ult will heal him or such a small amount, but for AP builds 200 hp + 10% per 100 ap is a lot, like some 200 + 70% lost in past 4 seconds with max AP possible.

This isn't exactly the best way to balance ekko, but at least it further discourages tanky builds.

The same concept can be applied to his w passive as well: Ekko's basic attacks deal 10/15/20/25/30「 (+ 1% missing health per 33 AP) 」 bonus magic damage to targets below 30% of their maximum health.

I will assume most of this has been tested, but as it stands ekko isn't being played as intended anyway so he might as well be changed.

Edit: Hey, also you could increase the lockout duration of his passive to like 12 seconds or so that decreases with ap down to like 4 seconds.

52 Comments

RiotAD Yuumi23 votes

At the end of the day, Tank Ekko doesn't get that all that much healing out of his ultimate because he tends to extend fights FAR beyond the 4 second window. Plus, its overall contribution to WHY he's strong is more about the untargetability and TP and less about the healing in later game fights. Would this nerf him? Sure. Not sure it would be effective though...

IvyTheLeopard1 votes

[deleted]

La Barbotte3 votes

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yeah make melee champs not use tank items, what could go wrong

The Yetii Rider1 votes

In a game like this, where communication is very poor and split second individual decisions are crucial, why does untargetability even exist? What is its purpose?

Abyssphere1 votes

To give champions a way to dodge abilities beyond just dash dash dash?

La Barbotte3 votes

okay im gonna do something ill regret later BUT why does he have to heal tho, i mean he already have his massive shield on W (situationnal but its ekko's job to be at the right place at the right time) plus when you showed him at first his video we saw him rewind but he was still hurt from his mistakes, so why dont you just remove the heal all together, he's my main and i think that would be fair, he still gets the tons of damage or the reposition, the heal is overkill (food for thought) i'll leave you on this, but before you gutt him too ahrd consider this plz, love you , bai o/

Mokkun3 votes

{quoted}

okay im gonna do something ill regret later BUT why does he have to heal tho, i mean he already have his massive shield on W (situationnal but its ekko's job to be at the right place at the right time) plus when you showed him at first his video we saw him rewind but he was still hurt from his mistakes, so why dont you just remove the heal all together, he's my main and i think that would be fair, he still gets the tons of damage or the reposition, the heal is overkill (food for thought) i'll leave you on this, but before you gutt him too ahrd consider this plz, love you , bai o/

He has the heal because it's thematic to his kit. It's the same reason Zilean has one, and the same reason many other time characters do; (think Tracer or Weaver) the concept is that if you go back to the point where you had more health, you've "healed." Some games do it by literally going back to that prior health and location, even if that amount was lower. League just heals you.

La Barbotte2 votes

yeah i get that but he wasnt showcased like this from teh getgo, go watch is release video XD he's still bruised and hurt from the bad guys punches

Za Barudo3 votes

If i recall, some rioter stated in the Ekko Q&A that Ekko does actually heal all his wounds, but the "psychological pain" won't go away. Since he just rewinds time, it's like he never got hit in the first place, but since Ekko's time travel allow him to make experience and remember everything that happened to him, even if he went back, he still somewhat feel (or remember) his pain.

LankPants5 votes

Have you considered treating Ekko like other cancer champions like Yorick and gutting him into unviablity then throwing him to the back of the rework queue to rot for the next 3 years or so?

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

idk, tank ekko getting spirit visage makes that heal do work, If he gets 100-20% in 8 seconds then ults it will heal him for ~50% of his max HP.

if that damage was DPS and averaged over the 8 seconds then his ult would heal for (0.5 *80% * 1.25 SV multiplier) = 50% his HP. More realistically he would ult immediately after some significant burst damage and would heal for more than that.

kasfas1 votes

But there still is the issue that in those 4 seconds, he could've tanked massive damage, ala vel'koz ult/ kog'maw autos, but he can revert himself to a previous position with the increased health. Tank ekko also tends to buy a spirit visage which allows him to make even better effectiveness of the % heal. And its not like you can remove the blink or untargetability nor can you make that scale with stats that ap ekko wants to buy. He might not get very effective healing from it most of the time, but he still gets it despite dragging the fight out much longer than the 4 second window that he's intended to get.

It might it be a minimal nerf, sure. But it's still a change, and one that might even benefit ap ekko.

I mean you could always just have his passive slow/hasten scale with ap up to a cap, but that is another suggestion.

Thanks though for being here to answer my question! <3

Skias2 votes

{quoted}

At the end of the day, Tank Ekko doesn't get that all that much healing out of his ultimate because he tends to extend fights FAR beyond the 4 second window. Plus, its overall contribution to WHY he's strong is more about the untargetability and TP and less about the healing in later game fights. Would this nerf him? Sure. Not sure it would be effective though...

I thought it was pretty much a given that tank ekkos strength lies in copious amounts of CC and easily applied max health %. He has a weird set of bruiser strengths for being an assassin. Maybe remove the % and give him flat damage.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

What about making his slows scale with AP instead of level or ability rank?

Dr Poro1 votes

I think that nerfing the heal would tackle AP ekko more. What about nerfing his base stats? -3 AD would do a lot probably. Or maybe better to reduce the scaling. AP ekko will need AD early game but it will be of lesser importance lategame while tanky ekko really needs this base AD for his trinity force and damage overall. His scaling AD is already one of the lowest for melee champs, though, with only Pantheon being lower. Still, with the amount of utility this assassin has, I think it's justified. Also change the E to have more damage on the AP part. I also feel like the slow on his passive is a bit too strong.

Captain Aishi1 votes

can we just get rid of the untargettability before the TP, so it can't be used to both dodge burst AND heal previous damage dealt at the same time? or give it a cast time before he becomes untargettable so he has to actually plan using his ult instead of it being a reaction play? as it stands right now it's the one reason why i've always hated playing against ekko

TeCoolMage7 votes

Or even better: Give him 50% of damage taken as a heal, no AP ratio

But the maximum is 300 + 100% ap health (so at 500 AP you can heal 800 HP maximum if you take 1,600 damage and survive.)

That way Tank ekko works only if you build AP equal to his effective health - 300

Dirtbag Darrell5 votes

I played ekko in my placements once on a smurf. won 9/10 promos. Lost the one game where ekko was banned.

Hes pretty broken I agree. The damage is managable, but his ability to escape, kite, etc is bulllshit.

IcyPepper11 votes

How does winning games on a smurf account help you judge a champion's strength? That's not exactly the greatest anecdote I've seen here.

Shouldn't you judge a champion's performance against players more close to your level?

Dirtbag Darrell10 votes

Sorry, I didnt finish my sentence, it was first time ekko.

iamthegoatofwar1 votes

if that's truely the case I agree...this champion and yasuo both tend to go nuts. Course i play nasus so both are kinda meh vs me in top lane.

Terchio5 votes

For me, the problem with Ekko isn't even 100% how high his base skill values are... His problem is where his scaling lies.

Take his Q, for example:

Outward Magic Damage: 60 / 75 / 90 / 105 / 120 (+ 20% AP)

Returning Magic Damage: 40 / 65 / 90 / 115 / 140 (+ 60% AP)

What does this tell me? This tells me that Ekko needs only 233 AP to double his base damage for the returning of max level Timewinder. However, that outward projectile is going to stubbornly stay at a weak state, only doubling in damage after 600 AP!. This means that Tank Ekko's Q outward shot, the easy part that's almost guaranteed to hit, would never have been much better anyways. Meanwhile, the real power that lies in the skill (somewhat...), the return, has much more power when he's high AP, he just doesn't have the tankiness to really bully an enemy into it.

So, what are the AP values that his ratios double in effectiveness (in relation to level 18 Ekko)?

Passive: 237 (requires stickiness) Q: 600 (easy hit) - 233 (telegraphed hit) W: 300 (Passive, low HP assassinate) - 106.6 (prediction shield) E: 350 R: 300 (telegraphed damage) - 300 (self-heal; only percentage portion counted)

I will note that this is a lot of AP ratios. However, I'd say that he only really has 3 ratios that don't require some high amount of prediction, which I can count in his actual combo: E (350), Q out (600), and generally, the passive (237). Meanwhile, his main 2 telegraphed values are low: his return boomerang (233), and the miniscule amount needed for shield (106.6).

So, what does this mean? This means that in order for Ekko to deal his base damages, he needs no skill. Now, I don't mean no skill as in he can set his dog at the controls, but we're close. Q out, E, and passive, and he does 450 damage with base values only. In order to double that, he needs 321 AP to get 900 damage out of that combo, and even that is discounting the inherent damage from autoattacks which aren't going to improve a bit from AP. However, his telegraphed skills need 233 AP and 106.6 AP to double up, no AA involved. These are the abilities that require the actual gameplay proficiency to use, corralling the enemy into their return Timewinder, and timing your Parallel Convergence to a spot you won't get caught out. So basically, you put the power in his keystone, difficult-to-use abilities, but only after investment.

But here's where the problem comes in. AP Ekko, despite having a very high ceiling because of this, also has a high fizzle rate. Now, this probably is why Ekko has 8 AP ratios and feels so bad. If Ekko makes his main combo, he generally only needs one of his two (or more) potential "fizzles" to hit in order to secure the kill most of the time. This leaves a LOT of damage potential if, say, he somehow lands both. Or maybe he completely misses his target, but hits another enemy trying to protect. Or he gets a 1.75 second stun thrown in to root the enemy and secure his fizzles from happening altogether. Now, Ekko is designed to basically be a crap-shoot who hits his main combo, and then depends on a flurry of possibilities to knock the enemy low enough to kill. But, there's one thing that makes Ekko 10x better at landing this combo: tankiness. Tankiness gives him the freedom to AA without feeling overwhelmed on the front lines. It allows him to guide his Timewinders better. It helps to feel safer when trying to hit your bubble. Basically every potential fizzle in his kit suddenly becomes attainable when he's not squishy. You can guide the enemy into your Timewinder, or simply use it as a corral for your stun/shield. You can also lead the enemy, who is already slowed from Timewinder, to get hit by the return with near certainty (with a little aid from E). Ekko has a lot of intended combos which are just not available to him in his AP form because his reliable combo has been stripped down to base values, and he has limited capabilities once people learn his tricks.

So, all in all, Ekko needs to have stability tossed into his kit. Either he builds the stability through HP, or AP. If he goes tank, that is his stability, and his base values need to fall on stable skills to accommodate that. Meanwhile, his stable skills need to have high ratios to make assassination feel more stable for AP Ekko, but drop the impact of the randomness in his kit by lowering the ratios on his crap-shoot skills. If you want to balance Tank Ekko in, you can try raising the base values on his crap-shoot skills. All in all, here's what I would do:

Passive - 20-190 (+80% AP) > 20-100 (+80% AP) Too much free damage. Needs to fall off lategame.

Q out - 60-120 (+20% AP) > 40-120 (+40% AP) Q in - 40-140 (+60% AP) > 40-120 (+40% AP) This makes bases 20 weaker all game, but frontloads much of the AP ratio on the outer Timewinder. Bases aren't too high here.

W passive - Not changed? Don't have any real opinion on this at this point. Might change to flat because he and Fizz use % missing HP tied with AP ratio too well. W shield - 80-160 (+150% AP) > 40-120 (+100% AP) W stun - 1.75 seconds > .75 seconds (NEW) - W damage (if stunned) > 40-120 (+50% AP) Shift some shield and stun to damage. This utility was more than warranted, anyway. Also, shield was never utilized by AP because 150% ratio was nuts high. 100% is more usable on AP Ekko, maybe a bit lower, but gets some damage to tie with it without being too utility OP on stun. As another option, would like it if bubble acted like blinding ground, forcing vision of enemy units to be only within the bubble until outside, similar to Graves' Smokescreen, but with clear vision within the bubble.

E - 40-140 (+40% AP) 20-100 (+60% AP) [possibly with cooldown compensation].

R - Reworked, essentially to be a less-telegraphed W bubble. Ekko still flies to the position he was 4 seconds ago, but instead of bursting obscene amounts of damage, he gives a small bit for plopping the bubble, and then the typical stun/shield, with possible healing on top if the consistency with the old kit was needed. Would be nice if the bubble-smokescreen idea from W was in effect here, too. Possibly add another effect on top, like a damage amplifier or something within this bubble, if needed. Generally, though, keep the inherent damage low on this. Edit: Maybe just rework R into this and make a new W. Not 100% sure where to go with this.

It's not perfect, but I feel this is more the direction Ekko needs to go in order to be healthy with such wildcard type skills available to him. I'd like to reduce the kiting or something, but I feel his E and W should be a viable combo, and R is going to be too expensive to just toss. I'd like to modify the innate, too, as he's one of the easiest champs to reliably combo in laning phase; basically throw Q's all day until one lands, and then E-Auto before they can leave vision. Ekko shouldn't feel the win on the trade that easily, I think, considering this will basically be granting him Rengar-esque instakills lategame. My opinion is to increase stack time a lot and remove passive stacks from autoattacks that aren't his E. That way he has two choices: either stack by landing all 3 hits on Q and E, or land 1 Q and pop passive when cooldown comes back. In the latter case, the enemy always has the option of backing off until stacks reset.

TL;DR Ekko's reliable-hit skills have bases that are too high, keeping those ratios low, and forcing the telegraphing skills to be too impactful. Having more powerful reliable skills after AP investment makes room for more meaningful utility outside those skills without relying on those skills to be a hail mary (and therefore enabling tank strategies which already steer the battle the direction they want it to).

SouL1ess1 votes

-snip-

The problem is you are taking more and more base damage out of his kit, therefore nerfing his early game even more and nerfing both AP Ekko and Tank Ekko at the same time.

Because all League champions need some form of early self-sufficiency regardless of their game scaling. Reducing base damage will definitely nerf the effectiveness of Tank Ekko but it is also just an overall nerf to every playstyle that the champion has. I don't think AP Ekko will see any significant change from this - it's still a bad build for kit component issues and lack of reliability (as you have said) and speed (that is crucial to assassins), which I believe is not the point of your changes. Further decreasing the early kit power of Ekko and I won't be surprised to see him disappear completely.

Conclusively, Ekko still need a full rework to solidify his kit around a certain build, be it Tank or Assassin.

Terchio2 votes

Probably true, but as his kit stands, he needs near guaranteed single-target proficiency in order to limit the effectiveness of his teamfight capabilities, and therefore make him possible to beat. Right now, his kit suffers from Rengar Syndrome, and the cure has been to make him an absolute wildcard, which still is proficient at single-target, but shines at random-area devastation. Not that insta-kill assassins are healthy, but it's what we have at the moment, anyway. Once the Assassin rework goes through, I'm sure he could use another lookover.

And as far as base values go, he needs the scared early game to function as an instakill champion, as well. He needs to have laning phases that imitates that of soloers like Akali or Diana instead of being semi-viable early like Talon or Zed. He gets an early escape, a potential hail mary stun, and a decent comboing potential in his Q harass, all in what is aiming to be a potential insta-gib kit. I'm not 100% pleased with my setup, but it feels like a good direction to go before tearing things apart too badly.

I'll mention that my main goals were this:

  1. Make insta-gib Ekko functional
  2. Reduce the effectiveness of the highly telegraphed parts of his kit, particularly in utility
  3. Make him work his way up from something like low level Akali status, and earn his burst & team utility randomness heyday

Clearly I can't guarantee results on this, but it feels like a beneficial direction to go.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

i don't think 200 hp matters for tank ekko.

regardless. no amount of base damage increasing would not gut ekko because in his ap builds he doesn't always get a pure ap component or an item first. so its a bad idea. the base heal on it is fairly low for an ultimate ability

NineTailedMystic8 votes

wot. He's saying removing the base percent heal. Right now it's 100/150/200 + 20% [+6.6% per 100 AP], but is suggesting it to change to 100/150/200 + [8-10% per 100 AP] removing that base 20% entirely.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

The point of Ekko's ultimate is that he's undoing damage that's been dealt to him, like it was shown in the comic. Removing that interferes with his identity.

Aazzlano2 votes

The video showed that he wasn't being healed, in fact he kept the damage even though he went back in time.

Ult makes no sense. And why does it nuke? It's only that way from a gameplay perspective. If you want to preserve his identity, remove the heal and remove the damage.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

The video showed that he wasn't being healed, in fact he kept the damage even though he went back in time.

Ult makes no sense. And why does it nuke? It's only that way from a gameplay perspective. If you want to preserve his identity, remove the heal and remove the damage.

No, it was to show that he couldn't heal ALL of it. And he can't, he only heals 20% of it.

And yeah, I actually spoke to Meddler about why Ekko's ultimate dealt damage a while back. He basically told me "so that if you use it to escape you're paying a cost".

Vesarixx1 votes

Or maybe make the % scale with AP, like say he gets 1% per 100 AP health restored or something like that

Bears eat people1 votes

Tank ekko is ok, he's not weak not really strong.

I have no idea why people complain about ekko.

LatetotheRace3 votes

Because he's essentially being played wrong. That, and he's a very mobile tank that has the capacity to kill squishies. I always play juggernauts/bruisers top and stomp him into the ground, but that doesn't stop him from using his base stats to kill my squishies. PLUS (and this is a bonus) pretty much everyone I see is building AD tank ekko now, so he's even more annoying than ever.

kasfas1 votes

When a champion intended to be an ap assasin goes ad onhit tank, theres a problem with his design.

Bears eat people1 votes

He was bad designed at all and he needs a rework since release.

How to make AP Ekko viable? Let him kill squishes with E Q AA. Pretty toxic, isn't it? When Ekko was released he didn't os anyone and playing with ekko in your team was like 4vs5. Now he got viable way to be not really toxic but at least viable with tank builds. And ATM it's better than play vs real AP ekko IMO.

RocketRelm2 votes

There's a reason why champions like Poppy, Sion, and Yorick were removed from the game for years and years, despite being theoretically balancable (Yorick is still removed from the game, but he's being reintroduced soon). It's not a balance issue, it's a 'holy hell is this game toxic when this is meta' issue.

4feedersonmyteam1 votes

All i want is ap ekko i love that now everyoen expects me to build tank :(

Saianna1 votes

That is.. If they even want to balance Ekko..

chipndip11 votes

Don't remove it, but nerf it and buff the ap ratio one to compensate. That means that tank Ekko gets significantly less of the healing from 4 seconds ago and assassin Ekko should get more.

Cubíx1 votes

I made a comment in a different thread about a way to potentially fix ekko which I'll post below, but first I'd like to say removing the heal or nerfing it in someway won't really help tankko go away it will mostly hurt ap ekko's survivability.

What I think could work without hurting AP ekko as much would be to increase the stun over levels, make it start at .75 and increase by .25 per W upgrade (.75 ---> 1.75). Why would this work? well AP ekko is a burst mage so he doesn't need this same amount of time to deal damage, while Tankko strives off low CD and high utility, by making his stun so much less early on it'll do one of two things, either make Tankko players upgrade the W earlier and cause him to not upgrade one of his other abilities (Q- worse wave clear or E- less mobility/trade) or just cause Tankko to not stun as long making his early/mid game not as strong.

Emerald Fang1 votes

I like this idea.

aqours fanboy1 votes

Ok so I read that LONG ASS POST of nerfs and while you bring up a good point, most of those nerfs listed would just gut AP Ekko even more.

Lessening the stun on his W makes his jungle viability lower than usual, considering hitting that is basically the difference between a successful and failed gank. I think it should be increased across levels, though, would make the most sense.

Timewinder + Phase Dive + Passive is OP damage wise however, those are nerfs I'd be fine with, just as long as it is still a combo that takes skill to hit and is rewarding to master. (I mean damn, put a Thunderlords on him and it's just, ctrl alt deleting health)

While I agree the ult scaling is not as fair as it should, I don't think taking the damage component makes sense. I mean, like we've said, Ekko's ult is meant to help him undo MISTAKES, it's what makes Ekko Ekko, and gives a chance for him to redo, and honestly you will still end up dying half the time. Taking this away and reworking it not only makes him inconsistent with his character, but as an assassin, it's a giant fuck you.

Scaling might need a change but other than that I think if Ekko was made into a more high risk high reward champ like I think he is and should be, I'll be cool with whatever update he gets.

aqours fanboy1 votes

I have never played Ekko top and I don't plan to, honestly I don't even play him mid, I main him in jungle, but I can see why people have issues with him.

His kit is packed, but depend on each other in order to do actual damage (excluding tanking, running up, hitting, all that, no I'm talking mid/jungle where you gotta plan shit).

I made a forum on this as well, really, but the one thing I'd like to see is just a change of stun time in his W to increasing over time, decreased damage, and a bit of squishiness.

That makes Ekko a bit more rewarding to play when you actually hit combos.

aqours fanboy1 votes

It makes sense for Ekko to not have the heal when in a fight, and in my opinion would make him harder to work with, but that's alot of damage taken away from him that needs to be added somewhere else.

The fact that it does both heal and damage makes you think, in a 4 second window, mind you, can you use this ult for both? Do I need to use it now? Will I get enough back to finish my opponent?

Plus, you can mess up the positioning of this ult hardcore if you aren't good at positioning, so it's 50/50, and you cannot predict what the enemy will do at a certain time.

The ult's HEAL needs a bit redux, but the damage is cool.

aqours fanboy1 votes

{quoted}

It makes sense for Ekko to not have the heal when in a fight, and in my opinion would make him harder to work with, but that's alot of damage taken away from him that needs to be added somewhere else.

The fact that it does both heal and damage makes you think, in a 4 second window, mind you, can you use this ult for both? Do I need to use it now? Will I get enough back to finish my opponent?

Plus, you can mess up the positioning of this ult hardcore if you aren't good at positioning, so it's 50/50, and you cannot predict what the enemy will do at a certain time.

The ult's HEAL needs a bit redux, but the damage is cool.

Let me re-word this: Taking away BOTH heal and damage and leaving just re-position woulda just gut AP ASSASSIN Ekko to the ground. Takes away his all-in capability and leaves him only with QE + passive and WR combo, the WR combo only being a fancy way to land a stun.

He needs that heal because in the video it showed he could heal himself most, but not all, of his injuries. He needs the damage to give him that all-in, assassination capability, the passive gives him the movement but the QE doesn't assassinate as it does lower HP. Also makes you decide in teamfights whether to heal, damage, where you gotta be, all that jazzy jazz.

kasfas1 votes

I never said anything about the damage, nor did i suggest removing the heal. Just move the % damage taken to an ap ratio instead of having a flat value.

aqours fanboy1 votes

{quoted}

I never said anything about the damage, nor did i suggest removing the heal. Just move the % damage taken to an ap ratio instead of having a flat value.

Was referring to someone else's suggestion.

lolipopevelynn1 votes

shed some of the excessive fucking CC ekko has in his kit. problem solved. his W does NOT need to slow AND stun damnit.

aqours fanboy1 votes

{quoted}

shed some of the excessive fucking CC ekko has in his kit. problem solved. his W does NOT need to slow AND stun damnit.

You mean unless he lands in when you are in it? It's a condition, so.

PhDs Nuts1 votes

Ekko builds tank and Yasuo doesn't build crit. Thanks, balance team.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

Here's a solution:

Make Ekko's slows have very low base values but scale moderately well with AP.

Currently, you can play Tank Ekko and be a slow/stun bot for your your team. All he needs is levels, ranks in Q, a point in E, and items, and you're set. Maybe if his passive slow and MS bonus didn't scale with level, but with AP, and his Q and W slows likewise, he would have to build AP if he wanted CC.

So if you want that 60% slow from your passive, you better have 400+ AP.

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