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I highly doubt top lane tanks will amount to much with Conqueror in the game

chipndip1··30 votes·11,668 views

The triple whammy of bonus stats, true damage, and healing that doesn't reduce from aoe is actually worse than when it had double the true damage. Tanks don't get to win in lane, and thus can't come out ahead to coast into the mid and late game. Instead, they either get crushed in lane or get crushed after the enemy fighter/skirmisher completes an item or so. Sure, they're useful for team fight cc, but what's the point when you feed a carry while you're trying to get to the team fighting stages of the game?

ALL tanks aren't useless. Support tanks and jg tanks are still a thing, but top lane tanks? They haven't been relevant to the game for a minute, even longer if you exclude Sion. Maybe Riot should focus less on fighters and marksmen and assassins all the time and put a little elbow grease in their lesser loved sub-classes for a change? After 7 years before finally having SOMEONE touch the enchanter class (a newbie, no less), why the hell is it that some roles/niches gather cobwebs and other ones just CONSTANTLY get worked on? What's the deal?

I don't even want to say anything about artillery mages and how THEY are in this game rn.

53 Comments

Ragnaveil11 votes

The issue is fighers are hella stated to be juggernauts but better. Jax practically has to press R and he's tanky but deals burst damage in quick secession. Like how can anyone deal with him other than a burst mage being broken when all he has to do is press E and make every trade in his favor.

GigglesO17 votes

It’s really more than that. Riot abandoned tanks as the “durability” class in favor of “has significant cc” class. How are they supposed to be balanced around the idea of having the most cc in the game when damage is so high all it takes is a single 1 second stun for the enemy to die?

Ragnaveil3 votes

Right.

chipndip15 votes

{quoted}

It’s really more than that. Riot abandoned tanks as the “durability” class in favor of “has significant cc” class. How are they supposed to be balanced around the idea of having the most cc in the game when damage is so high all it takes is a single 1 second stun for the enemy to die?

You have a strong point, but I want to take the time to delve into the problem a bit, cause it isn't just a "damage is high" issue:

Tanks are meant to soak damage. However, tanks have been ran out of top lane. On top of that, tanks don't jungle as aggressively early on as jungle divers like Lee, Xin, and Elise do, so it's hard to justify a jg tank when you're vying for that early game dominance. Added to that, support tanks aren't as tanky due to income.

What happens is that, in a game where tankiness counters the burst of lethality builds, no one's playing tanks so assassins get free tickets to enemy back lines without risking their rotations being burned on sub-optimal targets. On top of that, picks that use Conqueror ALSO eat up tanks as much as any skirmisher or marksman would...even worse is that some skirmishers ALSO use Conqueror. ON TOP OF THIS we have nonsense like Spear of Shojin in the game which just makes these guys snowball on tanks even harder. AND THEN THERE'S THIS SHIT item 3091. WHY DOES IT HAVE HEALING TOO!?

It's less a question about damage being too high more than it's about the damage sponges being WELL out of business. Put another way: Counters against tanks are way too plentiful and way too potent way too early on. Even if damage is generally fair in a "carry vs. carry" scenario, no one's playing the roles that deny this damage because you'll just feed the Conqueror top laner and be a useless rag all game or get overlapped in the jg.

GigglesO1 votes

What you posted and what I posted are two sides of the same coin. Yes damage is too high because there are less tanks, yes damage would come down with more tanks in the game, and yes having more cc would be more significant if damage was lower (because there are more tanks played).

It all stems from riot taking on the idea that tanks should just be cc whores instead of damage soaks.

Remember when there was the argument that Mundo was a tank? I sure do. Was he a tank, maybe that’s for another discussion... now though he is just another bruiser, and every damage buff they push on him moves further into the bruiser category. You can’t even really make an argument that he’s a tank.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

What you posted and what I posted are two sides of the same coin. Yes damage is too high because there are less tanks, yes damage would come down with more tanks in the game, and yes having more cc would be more significant if damage was lower (because there are more tanks played).

It all stems from riot taking on the idea that tanks should just be cc whores instead of damage soaks.

The only difference between us is that I'm saying that tanks absorbing damage isn't the issue more than it's anti-tank tools being all over the rift at this point. It's way too much to actually take, and some of them are available as early as game start.

The value of tank items was decreased so they'd stop being poached by assassins. I agree with that move, but what I don't agree with is tossing out anti-tank measures like candy because Hashinshin told Riot to collectively die.

So I'm more saying that "measures against tanks are too strong" rather than "damage in general is too high". A lot of the issue we see comes from life steal as well as damage.

GigglesO1 votes

I don't think that is it. Damage is too high can refer to either damage being too strong, or tank/tank items being too weak.

To me if you say defense is low or damage is high you may as well be saying the same sentence.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

I don't think that is it. Damage is too high can refer to either damage being too strong, or tank/tank items being too weak.

To me if you say defense is low or damage is high you may as well be saying the same sentence.

It's a correlation to say the least. I'm trying to put it in a way where it's easier to digest.

Like...it's not "holistic damage" that's too high if you ask me. It's "measures against tanks" being too strong. Now, those measures do include damage dealing tools, but it's the measures that are targeted against tanks that I believe are the problem, not necessarily damage when some 7/1/2 Zed slaps my Nami back to the Nexus.

5StackUltOneShot3 votes

{quoted}

The issue is fighers are hella stated to be juggernauts but better. Jax practically has to press R and he's tanky but deals burst damage in quick secession. Like how can anyone deal with him other than a burst mage being broken when all he has to do is press E and make every trade in his favor.

Finally someone said it.

Fights are literally juggernauts but mobile lmao

Alzon1 votes

With Conqueror/RavHunter healing, yes they are.

Lovelle8 votes

Buffing tanks directly doesn't do anything but make them push out everyone else from top lane and jungle. Buffing defensive itemization, and improving health options across the board, helps out everyone including tanks. One of the primary problems is that defensive itemization and scaling isn't anywhere near as good as just running damage, which benefits neither tanks nor juggernauts.

In comparison to just stacking damage, it takes way too much effort to get tanky. The only champions that can actually get somewhat tanky are Sion and Cho'gath, due to their innate health stacking mechanics. Everyone else just gets shredded, no matter how tanky they try to build.

This being said, tanks can still do their jobs when behind, since often times all they have to do is CC someone once and they die to focus fire in a second. They can still function with defensive scaling being weak, but unfortunately the non-tank melees that are designed to have a balance of damage and defense are still struggling the most.

Pandemic Punch6 votes

There is only 1 Tank Support with a winrate above 50%. It is also the only one considered to be above B tier... Nautilus.

Just thought I would put that out there to make your initial argument stronger.

Sir Saltarin2 votes

There is only 1 Tank Support with a winrate above 50%. It is also the only one considered to be above B tier... Nautilus.

So, what they need to do is do what they've done to him on the rest of tanks.

That is buffing their dmg.

Abibyama II6 votes

buff damage

Gameplay boards:

https://i.imgur.com/IdV1Lct.jpg

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pJpEeq8v,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-05-01T21:44:15.065+0000)

So, what they need to do is do what they've done to him on the rest of tanks.

That is buffing their dmg.

Funny enough, most Nauts I see go damage builds these days.

Sir Saltarin1 votes

Which is fine, I like when even the tanks can one shot me.

And I'm not joking

bluefire mark 25 votes

Then riot gives tanks damage buffs. Which they just did. And they don't do well, so they buff damage again, and now look, tanks that are tankier than you but deal as much or more damage than you with sustain and or cc. Fun.

My idea is true damage should exist very little, really never surpasing 200. Also tanks should be tanks, not do damage, tank it.

The Ecdysiast4 votes

The real issue is that the tank "update" was the only successful class update... because it was the only one with the stated goal of nerfing the class, which is way easier to do than an actual update.

With less total health from items, the overall increase in true damage available to the opponents is stronger than it should've been. They didn't think about that at the time, but it's a serious issue. The tank item changes need to be reverted.

Abibyama II4 votes

Their itemization suck too. Just fixing conq wouldn't bring top tanks back. And while we're at it we should also fix ranged characters abusing melee characters

Man Top lane is such a shithole

btw welcome back

Snowbrand3 votes

And if you remove conqueror tanks will be the only ones in toplane. I prefer this meta then tank meta (and I main Ornn for example). Tank meta is just too uninteractive and unexciting.

Hold Ma Baguette2 votes

Then again if we remove conqueror we won't see anything but tanks in the toplane as fighters/juggernauts suddenly stand no realistic way to crush lane and they'll just get outscaled as a tank is way more useful in a teamfight scenario then any fighter/juggernaut will ever be (not including Jax or Riven as those 2 are just OP as hell and don't really represent the rest of the class).

chipndip15 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hold Ma Baguette,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pJpEeq8v,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-05-02T00:41:52.672+0000)

Then again if we remove conqueror we won't see anything but tanks in the toplane as fighters/juggernauts suddenly stand no realistic way to crush lane and they'll just get outscaled as a tank is way more useful in a teamfight scenario then any fighter/juggernaut will ever be (not including Jax or Riven as those 2 are just OP as hell and don't really represent the rest of the class).

Newer fighters aren't as bad at team fighting. Mainly the old ones are. If an Irelia gets to scale well AND gets Conqueror for her lane, the fuck does a tank do into that?

Alzon1 votes

Build damage

I memba balance 1 votes

commits sudoku

FSRER2 votes

The only 2 tanks I have managed to play toplane and win vs conqueror is Sion and Ornn. Every other tank is awful rn.

Alzon2 votes

Yesterday, I beat a Conqueror Blitzcrank as Conqueror Maokai. Does that count?

Plat MMR norms, btw

LTK KoRo2 votes

conqueror circlejerking continues, while the real problem is that tanks can have 20 cs after 10 minutes because they're pinatas for klepto ranged tops

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pJpEeq8v,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2019-05-02T09:04:16.042+0000)

conqueror circlejerking continues, while the real problem is that tanks can have 20 cs after 10 minutes because they're pinatas for klepto ranged tops

Sure but that's a different, less occurring problem.

LTK KoRo3 votes

it's less occurring much much more severe problem for tanks. I can lane as a tank vs conqueror riven or renekton and it'll go fine, i'll be some cs down and i might die to gank dive, but i'll be more useful during grouping. Meanwhile i can't lane vs ranged klepto abuser cuz i'll be a permament deadweight, im not going to outscale a kennen

Alzon1 votes

What’s even better is if Riven or Renekton takes Klepto

But no one does that

LTK KoRo1 votes

when riven or rene go for klepto they have like five times less opporunities to proc it than kennen

Alzon1 votes

Yeah, that’s probably not the best example of a melee Klepto user. But they do exist. Kayle, Nasus, Illaoi, Udyr if you’re feeling spicy. Champions who can trade with autos frequently.

ModCaliCoastReplay2 votes

Conqueror needs to go. It was introduced to the game because a lot of toplane bruisers missed Fervor of Battle. But instead, everyone got "buffed Fervor" instead and it's been problematic ever since.

Take it out of the game and replace it with Fervor again. No true damage or healing or other extras. Just flat adaptive force.

LTK KoRo1 votes

fervor by itself was a terrible rune, and it was much better on kogmaw and lucian than any bruiser

Snowbrand2 votes

{quoted}

Conqueror needs to go. It was introduced to the game because a lot of toplane bruisers missed Fervor of Battle. But instead, everyone got "buffed Fervor" instead and it's been problematic ever since.

Take it out of the game and replace it with Fervor again. No true damage or healing or other extras. Just flat adaptive force.

They buffed all the keystones with the runes rework. Keeping the old fervor would make it an underpowered rune compared with the other buffed keystones.

ModCaliCoastReplay1 votes

{quoted}

They buffed all the keystones with the runes rework. Keeping the old fervor would make it an underpowered rune compared with the other buffed keystones.

Let's see it in practice before making that assessment.

I'm not regularly seeing complaints about Grasp of the Undying, for instance, even though I think it's amazing.

But Conqueror seems to be ruining lives every day.

J Eevo2 votes

Add to that Vayne being the best adc currently and yeah, tanks that rely on resistances over flat hp don't really matter.

5or6stores1 votes

Absolutely nobody wants to lane against Maokai Malphite DrMundo, ESPECIALLY if they have a strong laning phase. It's more fun to slam your head into a brick wall for 15 minutes, and more interactive too. If you want a tank who can hold their own in lane, try Poppy.

chipndip13 votes

{quoted}

Absolutely nobody wants to lane against Maokai Malphite DrMundo, ESPECIALLY if they have a strong laning phase. It's more fun to slam your head into a brick wall for 15 minutes, and more interactive too. If you want a tank who can hold their own in lane, try Poppy.

The problem is that Poppy can't either. At least, not nearly as well as she should, given how hard she falls off later on.

Sintama1 votes

Tank? You mean Akali withitem 3053 item 3078 item 3146 ? That's a tanky champ.

Hayaishi21 votes

Conqueror is a mistake but Riot would rather have tanks disappear than remove conqueror

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Conqueror is a mistake but Riot would rather have tanks disappear than remove conqueror

It isn't a "Riot" problem. It's a player base problem. Riot was looking for less volatile ways to push fighters into the game until that Hashinshin moment blew up.

I'm not blaming Riot in this post. They'll always make decisions largely based on the woes of some portion of the community. I'm simply saying Conqueror needs to be removed from the game and no one should EVER take Hashinshin seriously again.

Andevar1 votes

No one amounts to anything with Conqueror in the game. We have champs like Jax Irelia who melt into teams while being too tanky to kill.

Why play an assassin, a mage, an ADC, or a tank when conqueror champs are all of those combined and better?

Like, what? You have a tank? I have a Yi jg with Conq and Rageblade.

Lord Zeta 13131 votes

Have you been listning to hashinshin lately?

Tanks have some of the best items in the game-barring Mage items. For 800 gold they Can DOUBLE their armor. And if conqueror-using Bruisers are giving them trouble? Thornmail puts a stop to that.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Zeta 1313,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pJpEeq8v,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2019-05-03T02:55:05.837+0000)

Have you been listning to hashinshin lately?

Tanks have some of the best items in the game-barring Mage items. For 800 gold they Can DOUBLE their armor. And if conqueror-using Bruisers are giving them trouble? Thornmail puts a stop to that.

Aight

FSRER1 votes

Hashinshin calls every champion he plays weak and needing a buff. Since he plays jax, kled, renekton etc you expect him to hate who? Mages? Assassins? Nope, tanks of course. So....

Lord Zeta 13131 votes

{quoted}

Hashinshin calls every champion he plays weak and needing a buff. Since he plays jax, kled, renekton etc you expect him to hate who? Mages? Assassins? Nope, tanks of course. So....

You can't argue with the fact that they are incredibly Gold efficient, and can counter bruisers with one item. That's not Hashinshin, that's facts

FSRER1 votes

Here is another fact. No matter how many tank items you build, you will still e squishy as a tank and even most duelists if not all can beat you. Juggernauts are weak indeed but that does not make tanks overpowered. Personaly, tanks are the 4th most powerful class with first being mages,assassins,adcs and for me are tanks

XJ999999999999991 votes

can confirm. annoying playing tanks and you can do good damage but can't commit to fights because conq is busted with healing.

Shrek Luigi1 votes

the issue I have with tanks is that their only fallback for dealing with the upper-eschelon of snowbally, life-leechin' fighters is Grasp and Thornmail (barring whatever tools x tank has in their kit, but a lot of champs in that field are ill-adapted for these guys), or it at least feels that way a lot of the tine

in particular, hp regeneration feels completely decentivized versus other means of lane-sustain. dshield and the hp-regen rune are really nice early on, but any additional investment into hp regen means you pretty much have to forego your ability to trade with the other guy given how the 'tank items" stats are laid out......to the point where taking grasp seems obligatory

from the lens of someone who usually brings a tank to the toplane, I've noticed that a lot of the tanks who have good-standing amongst my toplane bretheren are those along the lines of Cho & Maokai--champions with very potent, innate sustain--while others like Poppy are viewed unfavorably, and I don't think that's a coincidence xD

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